Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

I didn't get what you mean, in the above map we see a migration from northwest of Iran to Greece in 2,000 BC, there could be also some other migrations from this region to Anatolia or other lands in 3,000 BC or even 10,000 BC, they don't relate to this study, I asked these people brought what culture to Greece, was it Minoan?
Then read it again, it's simple to grasp. As for the paper, i haven't studied it to have an opinion on it or even understanding to what that 2,000 BCE refers to. Maybe you can enlighten us as to the actual quotes of the paper, and how does the paper come to that 2,000 BCE date, because the abstract itself is ambiguous giving a couple of dates, while the very paper discussed in this thread ("Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans"), negates that very date on the map. Does it base the date on the samples of our paper, because if it does then that map is wrong.
 
This adds to the eastern model for Mycenaean.


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Have you studied the paper? Maybe you can enlighten us as to the actual quotes and how it comes to that date? Plus, it doesn't refer to the steppe component as the one coming via Anatolia, but the CHG exclusively, that predated the arrival of steppe ancestry to Greece. Furthermore, the steppe component is in fact seen coming from the northern route (look at the map). If anything that map negates the eastern model, as a number of other things do. Last, the steppe component that initially came doesn't pertain to the rather late Mycenaeans, but to the proto-Greeks that can be traced several centuries earlier to Greece.
 
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Then read it again, it's simple to grasp. As for the paper, i haven't studied it to have an opinion on it or even understanding to what that 2,000 BCE refers to. Maybe you can enlighten us as to the actual quotes of the paper, and how does the paper come to that 2,000 BCE date, because the abstract itself is ambiguous giving a couple of dates, while the very paper discussed in this thread ("Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans"), negates that very date on the map. Does it base the date on the samples of our paper, because if it does then that map is wrong.

Would you please explain about the paper which is discussed in this thread, how it negates the date on the map?, For example talk about ancient Y-DNA samples.
 
Would you please explain about the paper which is discussed in this thread, how it negates the date on the map?, For example talk about ancient Y-DNA samples.
What i shared in the previous post pertains to what this paper says. Let me quote myself again.

I only know that Minoan samples dated between 2900-1900 BCE and 2000-1700 BCE had it, so did the Anatolian samples from Isparta dated between 2836-1800 BCE, and the Mycenaean samples dated between 1700-1200 BCE. Plus, as we read from the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" paper, that "eastern" (Caucasus/Iran-related) or CHG (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer) autosomal component was already present in Anatolia from at least ~3,800 BCE, and as the paper also mentions, "
ADMIXTURE analysis (Extended Data Fig. 1) shows that both Minoans and Mycenaeans possess a ‘pink’ genetic component (K=8 and greater) as do Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians, Neolithic Central Anatolians from Tepecik-Çiftlik, a Chalcolithic northwestern Anatolian, and western Anatolians from Kumtepe. This component is maximized in the Mesolithic/Neolithic samples from Iran and hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus (Extended Data Fig. 1). It is not found in the Neolithic of northwestern Anatolia, Greece, or the Early/Middle Neolithic populations of the rest of Europe, only appearing in the populations of the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age in mainland Europe, introduced there by migration from the Eurasian steppe.". Therefore, initially it obviously came from Anatolia to the Aegean sometime during the Late Neolithic or EBA, while it should have already coalesced for millennia or several centuries in Anatolia prior of that.

Furthermore, what would you like to know of Y-DNA haplogroups? Here is the relevant table from the paper, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/table/T1/?report=objectonly.
 
What i shared in the previous post pertains to what this paper says. Let me quote myself again.

I only know that Minoan samples dated between 2900-1900 BCE and 2000-1700 BCE had it, so did the Anatolian samples from Isparta dated between 2836-1800 BCE, and the Mycenaean samples dated between 1700-1200 BCE. Plus, as we read from the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" paper, that "eastern" (Caucasus/Iran-related) or CHG (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer) autosomal component was already present in Anatolia from at least ~3,800 BCE, and as the paper also mentions, "
ADMIXTURE analysis (Extended Data Fig. 1) shows that both Minoans and Mycenaeans possess a ‘pink’ genetic component (K=8 and greater) as do Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians, Neolithic Central Anatolians from Tepecik-Çiftlik, a Chalcolithic northwestern Anatolian, and western Anatolians from Kumtepe. This component is maximized in the Mesolithic/Neolithic samples from Iran and hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus (Extended Data Fig. 1). It is not found in the Neolithic of northwestern Anatolia, Greece, or the Early/Middle Neolithic populations of the rest of Europe, only appearing in the populations of the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age in mainland Europe, introduced there by migration from the Eurasian steppe.". Therefore, initially it obviously came from Anatolia to the Aegean sometime during the Late Neolithic or EBA, while it should have already coalesced for millennia or several centuries in Anatolia prior of that.

Furthermore, what would you like to know of Y-DNA haplogroups? Here is the relevant table from the paper, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/table/T1/?report=objectonly.

What did they have? Those Minoan samples dated between 2900-1900 BCE have no Iranian ancestry, Y-DNA haplogroup G2a2b2, mtDNA J2b1a1,... didn't come from Iran.
 
What do you exactly mean with your questions, elaborate.

There is no conclusion yet, but we can just make assumptions.

as you write it does not seem as an assumption,
but rather a statement,

clearly a tottaly personal believe statement.
 
that is not, lets say, so correct,
Minoan had colonies at Egypt Syrria Palaestine etc
even Makedonia the Bottiea one
Thessaly the Skotoyssa
Thera island etc

as also Crete had other populations too,
Like eteo-Cretans

I don't know why Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands to Greece, some people from Iran/Caucasus came and built Minoan culture and civilization and then some people from the steppe came and built Hellenic culture and civilization!
 
I don't know why Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands to Greece, some people from Iran/Caucasus came and built Minoan culture and civilization and then some people from the steppe came and built Hellenic culture and civilization!

You are banned for one week, for this ethnic slur.
 
I don't know why Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands to Greece, some people from Iran/Caucasus came and built Minoan culture and civilization and then some people from the steppe came and built Hellenic culture and civilization!

The Greeks recognize the contributions of Mesopotamia and Egypt to our own ancient civilization and we are indebted to the Phoenicians for their alphabet.

The Minoans are part of the genetic continuity between Anatolian, Levantine, Cypriots and other Med islands. Myceneans are like the Minoans except with some steppe admix.
 
The Greeks recognize the contributions of Mesopotamia and Egypt to our own ancient civilization and we are indebted to the Phoenicians for their alphabet.

The Minoans are part of the genetic continuity between Anatolian, Levantine, Cypriots and other Med islands. Myceneans are like the Minoans except with some steppe admix.

Let's be clear:

The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1,2, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and Iran4,5. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6,7,8, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1,6,9 or Armenia4,9. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.

3/4th Neolithic Farmer from Western Anatolia, and the rest being Iran/Caucasus-related for Minoans.

Mycenaeans are similar, but with steppe admixture.

Let's not conflate them with populations who are different, and do not have connections to their genetic origins. (i.e. Levantine)
 
as you write it does not seem as an assumption,
but rather a statement,

clearly a tottaly personal believe statement.

Not at all, i am just making assumptions, i do acknowledge that i might be totally wrong. I just said R1b might have been the Y-DNA of IE Steppe ancestors of Myceneans since R1b is one of the most common Y-DNA among modern Greeks along with J2a and E-V13.
 
I don't know why Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands to Greece, some people from Iran/Caucasus came and built Minoan culture and civilization and then some people from the steppe came and built Hellenic culture and civilization!

It is not like that,

Summerrians found irrigation and primary agriculture
Aegyptians started to calculate the irrigation with sun and star positions
Akkadians started the law under religious nobility
Assyrians Babylonians .....
Minoans found the true meaning of trade and merchant and sea routes
etc etc

Now what we call Hellenic Helladic proto-Greek or classic Greek or Byzantine Greek (Romioi) is another aproach.
the Iran Neolithic and Anatolian Neolithic expansion is not historical and roleplay part, of Greek ethnogenesis, as also all the paleolithic and epipaleolithic populations
but it is part of population when ethnogenesis movements happened.


1)
to understand at Sesklo-Dimini we see 2 different style populations,
nearby each other, possible different farming and production.
but after ethnogenesis we consider them as one.

2) the Anatolian and Iran Neolithic is old enough and spread all over Europe

3) there are some populations like Cycladetic and Minyan and eteo-Cretan etc who are considered (tottal or more) autochthonus comparing their era and others.


compare Britain, USA etc
At Minoan era only tin was the interest
at Roman era was more a jewel of victory to the winner,
but later Celts Saxons Normands etc etc
after their ethnogenesis, they make the first industrial country and top empire.
the early people of Britain when Minoans trade tin from British islands
did not make the English or Walles etc etc ethnogenesis.
but was present when England or Walles etc etc happened

watch Rome as city,
a few Patricians started a state and a myth,
they needed populations for works army etc,
as city grow all roads lead to Rome, becomes a sink of DNA
the more the rich, the more the sink, the more the luxury the mixing populations etc etc,
Roman becomes syonym of Latinoi, Etruscans, etc etc all Italians,
and maybe one day many patricians sons left the city,
So who is original Roman from th early founders?
but they are all Romans even after a century.



We do not consider G. Washington or B. Franklin as English, Dutch, Francais, no matter these could be their origins and DNA results
But as Americans cause they made the US ethnogenesis,
 
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What did they have? Those Minoan samples dated between 2900-1900 BCE have no Iranian ancestry, Y-DNA haplogroup G2a2b2, mtDNA J2b1a1,... didn't come from Iran.
It is different to claim that the people from Neolithic Caucasus, Transcaucasia, and western Iran, made a migration initially towards Anatolia and then towards the Aegean, something that nobody argues about, and different to claim that this CHG component came from Iran at the rather late stage of 2000 BCE to Greece, when it is indicated that it was here from earlier. Even our paper quotes the following.
"This analysis shows that all Bronze Age populations from the Aegean and Anatolia derived most (~62–86%) of their ancestry from an Anatolian Neolithic-related population (Table 1). However, they also had a component (~9–32%) of ‘eastern’ (Caucasus/Iran-related) ancestry. It was previously shown that this type of ancestry was introduced into mainland Europe via Bronze Age pastoralists from the Eurasian steppe who were a mix of both eastern European hunter-gathers and populations from the Caucasus and Iran; our results show that it also arrived on its own, at least in the Minoans, without eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry. This ancestry need not have arrived from regions east of Anatolia, as it was already present during the Neolithic in central Anatolia at Tepecik-Çiftlik (Supplementary Information, section 2)." (And let me add again like i did in the previous comment, that other than Neolithic central Anatolians from Tepecik-Çiftlik, a number of other Anatolians had it as well, such as Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians, a Chalcolithic northwestern Anatolian, and western Anatolians from Kumtepe.)
Even if we take your current narrative (because i have observed that it changes throughout the discussion or that it is rather ambiguous) then even you are going against your hypothesis that Minoans had already been in Crete from 3000 BCE. Either that, or you haven't yet understood that the map that you cited refers to the arrival of CHG exclusively, prior of the proto-Greek steppe component, and essentially negates your hypothesis of 3000 BCE Minoans in Crete (that obviously had CHG from quite early). Now, you brought up a map as if it is the bible and claim a 2000 BCE date without even explaining what is the reasoning behind it, and namely if it is even a hypothesis or a proven fact by the authors. That of course negates primarily the pre-Greek Anatolian presence of Greece, and secondary other archaeological and linguistic elements of proto-Greek evolution (which would be initiated by a subsequent migration some centuries prior of 2000 BCE). And then again, it even negates the indications of th
e "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" paper.

Haplogroups. What about them again? First of all the G2a paternal haplogroup is associated with the Neolithic farmers (being their most frequent haplogroup), not CHG, and it was widespread in Europe from the Neolithic. Second, the J2a paternal haplogroup was also present in Neolithic Europe with a lesser frequency, but nonetheless present. A number of Neolithic European samples have been found such as the following. Maybe more exist that i am unfamiliar with.
J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary dated to 4800-4500 BCE
J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria dated to 5500-4775 BCE
J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria dated to 5500-4500 BCE
J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary dated to 4692-4546 BCE
J2a-SK1363 from Neolithic Croatia dated to 4800-4500 BCE
J2a-Y29673 from Neolithic Italy dated to 5324-5223 BCE
J2a-S11842 from Neolithic Italy dated to 5345-5221 BCE
Not to mention that we have J2a at the Neolithic site of Barcın in northwestern Anatolia, dated to 6221-6073 BCE.
And then you find it difficult to understand how could J2a exist both among an IE Greek population such as Mycenaeans, and a pre-Greek population such as Minoans.
Thirdly, the J2b maternal haplogroup that you cite has also been present in Neolithic Europe. We have plenty of samples but i am not going to cite each specifically. I just want to mention the ones from the Balkans that also happen to be the oldest. We have a J2b1 from Neolithic Serbia (Lepenski Vir - borders with Romania) dated to 6205-5907 BCE, the second oldest are two J2b1 from Neolithic Bulgaria (Malak Preslavets - borders with Romania) dated to 5984-5806 BCE and 5733-5636 BCE, third oldest is a J2b1 from Neolithic Hungary (Hajdúnánás-Eszlári út - eastern Hungary) dated to 5221-5000 BCE, and fourth oldest is a J2b1 from Neolithic Hungary (Cegléd - central Hunary) dated to 5300-4900 BCE.

You also write the following, "I don't know why Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands to Greece, some people from Iran/Caucasus came and built Minoan culture and civilization and then some people from the steppe came and built Hellenic culture and civilization!".
First of all, that is an ambiguous statement. Which is it, Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands OR Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations didn't come from other lands? You obviously meant to write the second, which in any case, i don't know how do you even write that to me considering what i have written throughout our discussion. Then again, aside of what i have written, an honest answer to you would be that Helladic cultures and civilizations rather evolved where they evolved with external influence, which is natural considering the location of Greece and any culture or civilization for that matter. Influence is a universal phenomenon. And certainly the Minoan culture and civilization wasn't transplanted from Iran/Caucasus (or Anatolia for that matter) to Crete/Aegean, neither was the Hellenic culture and civilization (with its many stages throughout the millennia) transplanted from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to the Helladic peninsula/Aegean.
 
The Greeks recognize the contributions of Mesopotamia and Egypt to our own ancient civilization and we are indebted to the Phoenicians for their alphabet.

The Minoans are part of the genetic continuity between Anatolian, Levantine, Cypriots and other Med islands. Myceneans are like the Minoans except with some steppe admix.
I agree with the general message. Greeks were influenced from their neighbors and created something unique of their own. As for Phoenicians and their writing script. It was an abjad script that was transmitted to the Greeks, who took it and created the very first true alphabet. So, we took something and evolved it. Furthermore, i don't know why you cite the Levantines. If it is as a reference to western Jews, then it is wrong, since western Jews have detached from the Levantine macro-cluster and essentially cluster with Aegean (Greek islanders and southern Italians) populations. Same with Anatolia. If you are making a reference to its modern population it is wrong. Last, both Minoans and Mycenaeans are essentially Aegean populations, who by the way didn't receive any genetic influence from contemporary Levant or North Africa.
 
It is different to claim that the people from Neolithic Caucasus, Transcaucasia, and western Iran, made a migration initially towards Anatolia and then towards the Aegean, something that nobody argues about, and different to claim that this CHG component came from Iran at the rather late stage of 2000 BCE to Greece, when it is indicated that it was here from earlier. Even our paper quotes the following.
"This analysis shows that all Bronze Age populations from the Aegean and Anatolia derived most (~62–86%) of their ancestry from an Anatolian Neolithic-related population (Table 1). However, they also had a component (~9–32%) of ‘eastern’ (Caucasus/Iran-related) ancestry. It was previously shown that this type of ancestry was introduced into mainland Europe via Bronze Age pastoralists from the Eurasian steppe who were a mix of both eastern European hunter-gathers and populations from the Caucasus and Iran; our results show that it also arrived on its own, at least in the Minoans, without eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry. This ancestry need not have arrived from regions east of Anatolia, as it was already present during the Neolithic in central Anatolia at Tepecik-Çiftlik (Supplementary Information, section 2)." (And let me add again like i did in the previous comment, that other than Neolithic central Anatolians from Tepecik-Çiftlik, a number of other Anatolians had it as well, such as Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians, a Chalcolithic northwestern Anatolian, and western Anatolians from Kumtepe.)
Even if we take your current narrative (because i have observed that it changes throughout the discussion or that it is rather ambiguous) then even you are going against your hypothesis that Minoans had already been in Crete from 3000 BCE. Either that, or you haven't yet understood that the map that you cited refers to the arrival of CHG exclusively, prior of the proto-Greek steppe component, and essentially negates your hypothesis of 3000 BCE Minoans in Crete (that obviously had CHG from quite early). Now, you brought up a map as if it is the bible and claim a 2000 BCE date without even explaining what is the reasoning behind it, and namely if it is even a hypothesis or a proven fact by the authors. That of course negates primarily the pre-Greek Anatolian presence of Greece, and secondary other archaeological and linguistic elements of proto-Greek evolution (which would be initiated by a subsequent migration some centuries prior of 2000 BCE). And then again, it even negates the indications of th
e "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" paper.

Haplogroups. What about them again? First of all the G2a paternal haplogroup is associated with the Neolithic farmers (being their most frequent haplogroup), not CHG, and it was widespread in Europe from the Neolithic. Second, the J2a paternal haplogroup was also present in Neolithic Europe with a lesser frequency, but nonetheless present. A number of Neolithic European samples have been found such as the following. Maybe more exist that i am unfamiliar with.
J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary dated to 4800-4500 BCE
J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria dated to 5500-4775 BCE
J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria dated to 5500-4500 BCE
J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary dated to 4692-4546 BCE
J2a-SK1363 from Neolithic Croatia dated to 4800-4500 BCE
J2a-Y29673 from Neolithic Italy dated to 5324-5223 BCE
J2a-S11842 from Neolithic Italy dated to 5345-5221 BCE
Not to mention that we have J2a at the Neolithic site of Barcın in northwestern Anatolia, dated to 6221-6073 BCE.
And then you find it difficult to understand how could J2a exist both among an IE Greek population such as Mycenaeans, and a pre-Greek population such as Minoans.
Thirdly, the J2b maternal haplogroup that you cite has also been present in Neolithic Europe. We have plenty of samples but i am not going to cite each specifically. I just want to mention the ones from the Balkans that also happen to be the oldest. We have a J2b1 from Neolithic Serbia (Lepenski Vir - borders with Romania) dated to 6205-5907 BCE, the second oldest are two J2b1 from Neolithic Bulgaria (Malak Preslavets - borders with Romania) dated to 5984-5806 BCE and 5733-5636 BCE, third oldest is a J2b1 from Neolithic Hungary (Hajdúnánás-Eszlári út - eastern Hungary) dated to 5221-5000 BCE, and fourth oldest is a J2b1 from Neolithic Hungary (Cegléd - central Hunary) dated to 5300-4900 BCE.

You also write the following, "I don't know why Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands to Greece, some people from Iran/Caucasus came and built Minoan culture and civilization and then some people from the steppe came and built Hellenic culture and civilization!".
First of all, that is an ambiguous statement. Which is it, Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands OR Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations didn't come from other lands? You obviously meant to write the second, which in any case, i don't know how do you even write that to me considering what i have written throughout our discussion. Then again, aside of what i have written, an honest answer to you would be that Helladic cultures and civilizations rather evolved where they evolved with external influence, which is natural considering the location of Greece and any culture or civilization for that matter. Influence is a universal phenomenon. And certainly the Minoan culture and civilization wasn't transplanted from Iran/Caucasus (or Anatolia for that matter) to Crete/Aegean, neither was the Hellenic culture and civilization (with its many stages throughout the millennia) transplanted from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to the Helladic peninsula/Aegean.

Exactly. The component is older than people are trying to make it out to be. And either way Greek civilization is the result of Greeks not Anatolians, Levantines, Iranians.
 
Have you studied the paper? Maybe you can enlighten us as to the actual quotes and how it comes to that date? Plus, it doesn't refer to the steppe component as the one coming via Anatolia, but the CHG exclusively, that predated the arrival of steppe ancestry to Greece. Furthermore, the steppe component is in fact seen coming from the northern route (look at the map). If anything that map negates the eastern model, as a number of other things do. Last, the steppe component that initially came doesn't pertain to the rather late Mycenaeans, but to the proto-Greeks that can be traced several centuries earlier to Greece.

Eurogenes is claiming that new Mycenaean samples will show that steppe ancestry didn’t “trickle in” but rather came suddenly from the north. Don’t know how that can be known by relatively few ancient samples. Eurogenes aside, does anyone aware of any upcoming study?
 
Eurogenes is claiming that new Mycenaean samples will show that steppe ancestry didn’t “trickle in” but rather came suddenly from the north. Don’t know how that can be known by relatively few ancient samples. Eurogenes aside, does anyone aware of any upcoming study?
I am only aware of the Greek paper that i mentioned in this thread some four months ago. As has already been mentioned, some of those samples have been shown in a preliminary presentation almost two and a half years ago, and will be part of an actual publication that is expected in the next two-three years. Here is the small exchange that i had with the scientist who made the presentation.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page79?p=597576&viewfull=1#post597576
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page80?p=597717&viewfull=1#post597717
Now, the paper will probably include Greek samples from a number of periods. I say this because the scientist confirms in his message that there are additional samples for analysis, plus, in the preliminary presentation which you can watch here
, and specifically on the relevant table shown at 14:17, Greek samples from four different timelines and locations are shown. Namely, a Neolithic (6000 BCE) sample from Peloponnese, an EBA/MBA (3300-1600 BCE) sample from Lefkada, many samples from the Classical Greek (478-430 BCE) city of ancient Ambracia, and two Byzantine Greek (11th century CE) samples from Heraklion in Crete.
 
Eurogenes is claiming that new Mycenaean samples will show that steppe ancestry didn’t “trickle in” but rather came suddenly from the north. Don’t know how that can be known by relatively few ancient samples. Eurogenes aside, does anyone aware of any upcoming study?

I don't see how he could know that with confidence.

As for his interpretation of the paper, here on twitter, Lazaridis responds to him:

pM73ZmJ.png


 
I don't see how he could know that with confidence.

As for his interpretation of the paper, here on twitter, Lazaridis responds to him:

pM73ZmJ.png




If this is still Lazaridis' opinion, then it doesn't match with Georgievs North Eprirus proto-Greek theory.
 
If this is still Lazaridis' opinion, then it doesn't match with Georgievs North Eprirus proto-Greek theory.

offcourse it does,
and explains a lot.
 

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