Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Hm

Can you give an ancient sample of R1b found in Hellenic and Minoan-Mycenean world?
or at least in S Balkans?

Albeit rare, my haplogroup is actually one of them:

ev4iBjB.png
 
Autosomal tests look at the totality of our DNA and can paint a much broader picture of us than limited uni-parental tests. In the southern Balkans, specifically Greece and Albania, it seems clear that there are more Anatolia Neolithic farmer genes than certain other nearby places. In Greece, the language and culture survived or was reintroduced in certain parts. It is said to have happened relatively quickly after the medieval Slavic invasions. It seems like no surprise that Greek and Albanian survived while other parts of the Balkans became Slavic.

They didn't become "Slavic"; they became Slavic speaking, and they have a bit more "Slavic" ancestry, but not by much. People keep ignoring the high levels in the rest of the Balkans of what the old calculators sometimes called West Asian, or Caucasian. They also undeniably have more EEF than actual "Slavic" people like Poles and Russians.

The "Slavic" identity of these peoples is a product of 19th century politics imo.
 
I agree that uniparentals are good for tracing migration paths. The fact that my father was U-152 confirms, as ancient dna also now confirms, that a y line originating somewhere in far eastern Europe, and carrying some amount of ANE and EHG, at some point arrived in Italy, and that those people contributed to his ancestry, autosomal as well as yline, along with, of course, autosomal contributions of people with much different y lines.

The same actually goes for my mtdna.

I'm not about to go identifying with Central Europeans or French people who have U152, or Northern Europeans who have mtDna U2e.

What you are ignoring is all the dna passed down to you from all of the women in your history, as well as all the non direct y line men.

Perhaps what you're doing is trying to distinguish yourself from the peoples around you through yDna, or lay claim to certain lands through it. The first won't work, imo,because in total similarity you're not all that different, since that yDna is 2% of what you are, and the second is dangerous, and, in my opinion, meaningless.

You have a very "tribal" way of thinking, it seems to me. Perhaps you think that a "tribe" of people carrying certain y lines arrived in your area and Albanians are completely descended from them. I highly doubt that. Since at least the Neolithic the Balkans weren't empty. Any group arriving mingled its genes with those of the prior inhabitants. There's no "pure" tribe or group of people. We're all products of endless mixing, albeit with long periods of stasis in between.

People who think in "tribal" terms pick a period, a group, and completely define themselves by that group and its uniparental markers. I think that's a very illogical and also dangerous way to look at the world. The world functions much better without tribalism, imo. Look at Saudi Arabia and the rest of the middle east, and Africa.

But hey, I'm not here to lecture you; you'll do as you wish.

If you want to learn which current populations you are genetically most similar to, autosomal tests are the right choice, but in terms of ancestry beyond 500 years ago they do not say much. You might get a farmer vs pastorialist percentage but you gain almost no knowledge about how you received this ancestry.

The "Slavic" identity of these peoples is a product of 19th century politics imo.

South Slavs are just as much Slavic as West and East Slavs. They speak the same language group, they have very similar traditions, folklore, had the same pagan religion until Christianization, had the same social structures and even similar professions. If anything, it is affinity with local Balkan peoples which is relatively new.
 
I think you are not understanding my point/supposition, disregard modern or ancient autosomal affinity FULLY, I was talking ONLY for the migratory route (based on my assumptions, Maciamo hypothesis, and the research below) and date of R1b-L23 from 1500 BC.

View attachment 11745
The source were spread goes from central balkans (dont know the date): https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-r1b-m269/

@Maciamo argued:
''This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians",
He also mentioned "Z2103 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia during the Dorian invasion, thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE" unquote.

So Maciamo's hypotheses CORRELATES with the study above and it's pretty close as ON THE ABOVE MAP.

I only supposed if you are into that current 13% of male
R1b-L23 then you might descend from 1500 BC from the area of current north Macedonia and north Albania, and 3000 BC ago you might have descend from current surroundings of Ukraine (Pontic Steppe)


Source from:
Data used is mainly from Myres et al. (2011). For DF27, newly reported data includes reports by Solé-Morata et al. (2017). Both have been reviewed, including more recent papers, in data reported by Hernández et al. (2018).

https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-r1b-m269/
I am understanding you perfectly and i disagree with the parallelization of Y-DNA and atDNA (autosomal), even if it is just a supposition.

Furthermore, Maciamo wrote that R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)
was the first branch of R1b that emerged from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. Pretty much what the Eupedia respective article on R1b writes. Nonetheless even if highest frequency of R1b-M269 (xL23) is found today in Kosovo, North Macedonia and Serbia, this shouldn't be taken as a certainty for antiquity without any Bronze Age samples from the central Balkans to back it up. Of course for most of the R1b-M269 (xL23) that is found in Greece it is only rational to conclude that it came either from the north (Balkans) or the east (Anatolia), that goes without saying. But again, all these are unrelated to autosomal DNA, and Peloponnesian autosomal DNA for that matter. All Peloponnesians generally seem to cluster close to each other, with the notable exception of Maniots (Deep-Mani, East Taygetos, West Taygetos) and Tsakonians (South Tsakonia, North Tsakonia), both of whom represent more conservative Peloponnesian populations with minor Slavic influence, hence their diffusion in the following PCA, taken from this paper, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718.
Untitled.v1.jpg

As aforementioned for both my case and the case of @matadworf, since all of our family members originate from the Peloponnese for several generations back, and from regions outside Mani and Tsakonia, it would be rational to share the closest autosomal affinity with other fellow Peloponnesians, if such a group was included in the aforementioned autosomal calculators (Eurogenes K13 Oracle, etc.). But it isn't included. That was the initial point we expressed.
 
I agree that uniparentals are good for tracing migration paths. The fact that my father was U-152 confirms, as ancient dna also now confirms, that a y line originating somewhere in far eastern Europe, and carrying some amount of ANE and EHG, at some point arrived in Italy, and that those people contributed to his ancestry, autosomal as well as yline, along with, of course, autosomal contributions of people with much different y lines.

The same actually goes for my mtdna.

I'm not about to go identifying with Central Europeans or French people who have U152, or Northern Europeans who have mtDna U2e.

What you are ignoring is all the dna passed down to you from all of the women in your history, as well as all the non direct y line men.

Perhaps what you're doing is trying to distinguish yourself from the peoples around you through yDna, or lay claim to certain lands through it. The first won't work, imo,because in total similarity you're not all that different, since that yDna is 2% of what you are, and the second is dangerous, and, in my opinion, meaningless.

You have a very "tribal" way of thinking, it seems to me. Perhaps you think that a "tribe" of people carrying certain y lines arrived in your area and Albanians are completely descended from them. I highly doubt that. Since at least the Neolithic the Balkans weren't empty. Any group arriving mingled its genes with those of the prior inhabitants. There's no "pure" tribe or group of people. We're all products of endless mixing, albeit with long periods of stasis in between.

People who think in "tribal" terms pick a period, a group, and completely define themselves by that group and its uniparental markers. I think that's a very illogical and also dangerous way to look at the world. The world functions much better without tribalism, imo. Look at Saudi Arabia and the rest of the middle east, and Africa.

But hey, I'm not here to lecture you; you'll do as you wish.

No way, you are say things that I never said or inferred. I never expressed what is better nor concluded in any sense of purity.

Again, the questions of identity and ethnicity depends on "which Y-DNA branch?" and "When”. It is important to consider the tribal way of life to understand how different culture evolved to what they are today. For Albanians the tribal way of life was crucial to persevere their identity in the past and create an Indo-europian subculture.

There is no need for you to try to profile me. It is not related to the topic.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Last edited:

Furthermore, Maciamo wrote that R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)
was the first branch of R1b that emerged from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. Pretty much what the Eupedia respective article on R1b writes. Nonetheless even if highest frequency of R1b-M269 (xL23) is found today in Kosovo, North Macedonia and Serbia, this shouldn't be taken as a certainty for antiquity without any Bronze Age samples from the central Balkans to back it up. Of course for most of the R1b-M269 (xL23) that is found in Greece it is only rational to conclude that it came either from the north (Balkans) or the east (Anatolia), that goes without saying.

Well yes pretty much what Maciamo and Eupedia argues about R1b since he is admin i think lol, so I would rather support more something from him or the study mentioned above that you agreeing or not, and I dont think you are using that much studies to begin with..

Then you mention "
that it came either from the north (Balkans) or the east (Anatolia)".. east Anatolia? from what studies are you this or its just your supposition?


You might find this YET another study interesting below:
Sea Peoples behind Philistines were Aegeans, including R1b-M269 lineages

Palaeo-Balkan populations
We know that R1b-Z2103 expanded with Yamna, including West Yamna settlers: they appear in Vučedol, which means they formed part of the earliest expansion waves of Yamna settlers into the Carpathian Basin, and they also appear scattered among Bell Beakers (apart from dominating East Yamna and Afanasevo), which suggests that they were possibly one of the most successful lineages during the late Repin/early Yamna expansion.

Greeks and haplogroup R1b-M269

Therefore, while the presence of R1b-Z2103 among ancient Balkan peoples connected to the Yamna expansion is clear, one might ask if R1b-Z2103 really spread up to the Peloponnese by the time of the Mycenaean Civilization. That has only one indirect answer, and it’s most likely yes.
We already had some R1b-Z2103 among Thracians and around the Armenoid homeland, which offers another clue at the migration of these lineages from the Balkans. The distribution of different “archaic” R1b-Z2103 subclades among modern Balkan populations and around the Aegean offered more support to this conclusion.
But now we have two interesting ancient populations that bear witness to the likely intrusion of R1b-M269 with Proto-Greeks:

A single ancient sample supports the increase in R1b-Z2103 among Greeks during the “Dorian” invasions that triggered the Dark Ages and the phenomenon of the Aegean Sea Peoples. It comes from a Greek lab study, showing R1b1b (i.e. R1b-P297 in the old nomenclature) as the only Y-chromosome haplogroup obtained from the sampling of the Gulf of Amurakia ca. 470-30 BC, i.e. before the Roman foundation of Nikopolis, hence from people likely from Anaktorion in Ancient Acarnania, of Corinthian origin.

Even with the few data available – and with the caution necessary for this kind of studies from non-established labs, which may be subject to many different kinds of errors – one could argue that the western Greek areas, which received different waves of migrants from the north and shows a higher distribution of R1b-Z2103 in modern times, was probably more heavily admixed with R1b-Z2103 than southern and eastern areas, which were always dominated by Greek-speaking populations more heavily admixed with locals.
The Dorian invasion and the Greek Dark Ages may thus account for a renewed influx of R1b-Z2103 lineages accompanying the dialects that would eventually help form the Hellenic Koiné. In a sense, it is only natural that demographically stronger populations around the Bronze Age Aegean would suffer a limited (male) population replacement with the succeeding invasions, starting with a higher genetic impact in the north-west and diminishing as they progressed to the south and the east, coupled with stepped admixture events with local populations.

Sea peoples of hg. R1b-M269

Thanks to Wang et al. (2018) supplementary materials we knew that one of the two Levantine LBA II samples from Tel Shadud (final 13th–early 11th c. BC) published in van den Brink (2017) was of hg. R1b-M269 – in fact, the one interpreted as a Canaanite official residing at this site and emulating selected funerary aspects of Egyptian mortuary culture.


Conclusion

Even more interesting than these specific findings, this paper confirms yet another hypothesis based on phylogeography, and proves once again two important starting points for ancient DNA interpretation that I have discussed extensively in this blog:

  • The rare R1b-M269 Y-chromosome lineage of Tel Shadud offered ipso facto the most relevant clue about the ancestral geographical origin of this Canaanite elite male’s paternal family, most likely from the north-west based on ancient phylogeography, which indirectly – in combination with linguistics and archaeology – supported the ancestral ethnolinguistic identification of Philistines with the Aegean and thus with (a population closest to) Ancient Greeks.



https://indo-european.eu/2019/07/se...nes-were-aegeans-including-r1b-m269-lineages/
 
With all due respect and to your age, I never questioned your Peleponnesian roots, however we are talking here for 2000 BC, how many generations you know for sure that your relatives were Peloponnesus?... if you know for sure that all your relatives were 4 thousands years before than I truly BELIEVE you...

Still all my assumptions were only based considering Ydna and not autosomal data, so considering this i was making this point " IF you are
L23 and from what I have read so far L23 was spread around 1500 BC from current north Macedonia north Albania and far south Serbia...
So if your L23 then it might be accurate that you would be closer to Central Macedonian as you mention..."

So still it would be nothing odd about you being more closest to Macedonia because people move around as always and I dont see anything wrong about your relatives in 1500 BC migrated from those regions of current North Macedonia to Peloponnesus.
Still its just a supposition...

BUT, since you are G2a2a, wow thats interesting, and we know how low is this haplogroup for current modern Greeks and so to the other groups of people from the surrounding area, I dont have a comment here...but might say that you roots might tell something like really really OLD from that surrounding areas including
Peloponnesus

We've established that our paternal line has been in Messinia for (at least) the last 500 years. There are two options garnered from personal research and historical analysis; 1) This line has been in Greece since the Neolithic and/or 2) brought to Greece from Italy during a Byzantine population exchange (which may be a stretch). I tend to lean towards the former.
 
We've established that our paternal line has been in Messinia for (at least) the last 500 years. There are two options garnered from personal research and historical analysis; 1) This line has been in Greece since the Neolithic and/or 2) brought to Greece from Italy during a Byzantine population exchange (which may be a stretch). I tend to lean towards the former.

Messina was the last stop for all navies..... on the way to transporting troops for the crusades .............all crusaders from Europe went there to board the ships and be taken to the levant..........you could be anybody from any place in europe
 
Messina was the last stop for all navies..... on the way to transporting troops for the crusades .............all crusaders from Europe went there to board the ships and be taken to the levant..........you could be anybody from any place in europe

Venetians and Franks in particular.
 
Albeit rare, my haplogroup is actually one of them:

ev4iBjB.png


Still no answer,

In Minoan-Mycenean, Hellenic, and generally in S Balkans, no R1b ever found in far ancient world.
and will never be found, I guess,
 
Still no answer,

In Minoan-Mycenean, Hellenic, and generally in S Balkans, no R1b ever found in far ancient world.
and will never be found, I guess,

And will never be found?..DUDE what is that WRONG with this haplogroup that you wish so much that it will never be found?...this is really funny, there are no populations south balkans, north east, west ANYWHERE that they would not have at least some of all the haplogroups we usually mention...

As per samples check the study above, there are some samples of M269 (late bronze) in Thracia and as far as I know that is indeed South Balkans
View attachment 11748

in 2017 there was another Z2130 (bronze age) on around today Croatia I think, not S balkans but on balkans for sure...
 

Well yes pretty much what Maciamo and Eupedia argues about R1b since he is admin i think lol, so I would rather support more something from him or the study mentioned above that you agreeing or not, and I dont think you are using that much studies to begin with..

Then you mention "
that it came either from the north (Balkans) or the east (Anatolia)".. east Anatolia? from what studies are you this or its just your supposition?


You might find this YET another study interesting below:
Sea Peoples behind Philistines were Aegeans, including R1b-M269 lineages

Palaeo-Balkan populations
We know that R1b-Z2103 expanded with Yamna, including West Yamna settlers: they appear in Vučedol, which means they formed part of the earliest expansion waves of Yamna settlers into the Carpathian Basin, and they also appear scattered among Bell Beakers (apart from dominating East Yamna and Afanasevo), which suggests that they were possibly one of the most successful lineages during the late Repin/early Yamna expansion.

Greeks and haplogroup R1b-M269

Therefore, while the presence of R1b-Z2103 among ancient Balkan peoples connected to the Yamna expansion is clear, one might ask if R1b-Z2103 really spread up to the Peloponnese by the time of the Mycenaean Civilization. That has only one indirect answer, and it’s most likely yes.
We already had some R1b-Z2103 among Thracians and around the Armenoid homeland, which offers another clue at the migration of these lineages from the Balkans. The distribution of different “archaic” R1b-Z2103 subclades among modern Balkan populations and around the Aegean offered more support to this conclusion.
But now we have two interesting ancient populations that bear witness to the likely intrusion of R1b-M269 with Proto-Greeks:

A single ancient sample supports the increase in R1b-Z2103 among Greeks during the “Dorian” invasions that triggered the Dark Ages and the phenomenon of the Aegean Sea Peoples. It comes from a Greek lab study, showing R1b1b (i.e. R1b-P297 in the old nomenclature) as the only Y-chromosome haplogroup obtained from the sampling of the Gulf of Amurakia ca. 470-30 BC, i.e. before the Roman foundation of Nikopolis, hence from people likely from Anaktorion in Ancient Acarnania, of Corinthian origin.

Even with the few data available – and with the caution necessary for this kind of studies from non-established labs, which may be subject to many different kinds of errors – one could argue that the western Greek areas, which received different waves of migrants from the north and shows a higher distribution of R1b-Z2103 in modern times, was probably more heavily admixed with R1b-Z2103 than southern and eastern areas, which were always dominated by Greek-speaking populations more heavily admixed with locals.
The Dorian invasion and the Greek Dark Ages may thus account for a renewed influx of R1b-Z2103 lineages accompanying the dialects that would eventually help form the Hellenic Koiné. In a sense, it is only natural that demographically stronger populations around the Bronze Age Aegean would suffer a limited (male) population replacement with the succeeding invasions, starting with a higher genetic impact in the north-west and diminishing as they progressed to the south and the east, coupled with stepped admixture events with local populations.

Sea peoples of hg. R1b-M269

Thanks to Wang et al. (2018) supplementary materials we knew that one of the two Levantine LBA II samples from Tel Shadud (final 13th–early 11th c. BC) published in van den Brink (2017) was of hg. R1b-M269 – in fact, the one interpreted as a Canaanite official residing at this site and emulating selected funerary aspects of Egyptian mortuary culture.


Conclusion

Even more interesting than these specific findings, this paper confirms yet another hypothesis based on phylogeography, and proves once again two important starting points for ancient DNA interpretation that I have discussed extensively in this blog:

  • The rare R1b-M269 Y-chromosome lineage of Tel Shadud offered ipso facto the most relevant clue about the ancestral geographical origin of this Canaanite elite male’s paternal family, most likely from the north-west based on ancient phylogeography, which indirectly – in combination with linguistics and archaeology – supported the ancestral ethnolinguistic identification of Philistines with the Aegean and thus with (a population closest to) Ancient Greeks.



https://indo-european.eu/2019/07/se...nes-were-aegeans-including-r1b-m269-lineages/
As a sidenote, i thought Maciamo was just an administrator in the forum, i didn't know he contributed to the articles of Eupedia as well. Now i see he founded Eupedia. In any case, i didn't see Maciamo parallelizing Y-DNA to atDNA (autosomal) like you did in your previous comments, therefore why would i disagree with Maciamo? I just wrote the following, "this shouldn't be taken as a certainty for antiquity without any Bronze Age samples from the central Balkans to back it up.". What's wrong with that? Maciamo would agree with that notion as well.

Second, i didn't ask for R1b-M269 samples from Iron Age Greece and Philistia. I am already aware of all these studies and samples you mention. I asked for R1b-M269 samples from the Bronze Age central Balkans which i haven't seen yet. Furthermore, i also follow Carlos Quiles of Indo-European.eu, you didn't have to paste all these.

Regarding the northern (Balkans) and eastern (Anatolia) entrance of R1b-M269 in the Greek peninsula, yes it is a hypothesis as with most Bronze Age related discussion. It also ties on with the hypotheses concerning the entrance of the Graeco-Phrygian IE branch (and subsequent proto-Greek) in the Greek peninsula, with some suggesting a northern Balkanic route, while others an eastern Anatolian route. The respective Eupedia article on R1b includes a segment of the Anatolian branch, which i am sure you have read,
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Anatolian. Nonetheless, the fact that most of R1b-M269 that is found today in Greece, belongs to Balkanic subclades, can be seen as additional corroboration of the Balkanic hypothesis. But, questions such as, "when did the Greek clades reach Greece", "where did they enter from", etc, require the respective Early/Middle/Late Bronze Age samples in order to reach safe conclusions. For example, that Philistian R1b-M269 (likely R1b-Z2103) sample suggests that it could likewise be very common among Mycenaeans and that it didn't peak in southern Greece during the Bronze Age collapse with the arrival of Dorian Greeks. Last, the region from which the Dorians began their migration southwards sometime around the Bronze Age collapse, ties on with the proto-Greek region that has been discussed a couple of pages back. Indeed it seems to be the region of north-western Greece, including parts of southern Albania and western Macedonia (Greece), not the central Balkans nor even North Macedonia. Phrygians/Brygians most likely encompassed much of the region that lied between the Greek-speaking world and the central Balkans during the Bronze Age, namely before their exodus to Anatolia due to being stressed by migrants from the north.
 
I asked for R1b-M269 samples from the Bronze Age central Balkans which i haven't seen yet.
Not sure if everyone would consider this as Central Balkan, but sample 13499 from Beli Manastir, Croatia, was R-Z2103+. The sample belonged to the Vucedol Culture and was dated back to 2,884-2,666 BCE, so the Early Bronze Age.
 
Not sure if everyone would consider this as Central Balkan, but sample 13499 from Beli Manastir, Croatia, was R-Z2103+. The sample belonged to the Vucedol Culture and was dated back to 2,884-2,666 BCE, so the Early Bronze Age.
He did mention it above my last comment, but that is not central Balkans. The Vučedol culture is a north-western EBA Balkan culture, which seems to have had ties with Greece, such as trading relations, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture#Trade_with_other_cultures. As has been mentioned again a couple of pages ago, some even suggest that the intermediary stop of the Graeco-Phrygians could have been the Vučedol culture (much of Hungary, Bosnia, Croatia...), among others hypotheses such as Ezero (Bulgaria basically), Coţofeni (West Vallachia, NW Bulgaria, Transylvania), etc.., in a Balkanic context. That though, doesn't suggest that most of the Greek R1b-Z2103 was either Doric Greek, or that it came from the central Balkans during the Late Bronze Age.

But aside of all these, since we have that Philistian R1b-M269 (likely R1b-Z2103) sample, it is suggestive that it could likewise be very common among Mycenaeans and that it didn't peak in southern Greece during the Bronze Age collapse with the arrival of Dorian Greeks. Also, take note that R1b-Z2103 peaks in regions of the former Mycenaean civilization (Peloponnese, Attica, Cyclades), and concerning Magna Graecia, in regions that were colonized mainly by Achaeans (descendants of that Mycenaean civilization), namely Calabria, as seen in this map,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Magna_Graecia_ancient_colonies_and_dialects-en.svg/638px-Magna_Graecia_ancient_colonies_and_dialects-en.svg.png. Not the Dorian regions of Apulia and southern Sicily. That is additional corroboration to suggest that R1b-Z2103 could essentially be an Achaean common haplogroup, not a Doric one, in a Greek context.
Haplogroup-R1b-Z2103.jpg
 
Venetians and Franks in particular.

yes for franks , they would have been brought to the levant using Genoese or Pisan ships ............and no for venetians, venice went directly to the levant with their ships
 
He did mention it above my last comment, but that is not central Balkans. The Vučedol culture is a north-western EBA Balkan culture, which seems to have had ties with Greece, such as trading relations, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture#Trade_with_other_cultures. As has been mentioned again a couple of pages ago, some even suggest that the intermediary stop of the Graeco-Phrygians could have been the Vučedol culture (much of Hungary, Bosnia, Croatia...), among others hypotheses such as Ezero (Bulgaria basically), Coţofeni (West Vallachia, NW Bulgaria, Transylvania), etc.., in a Balkanic context. That though, doesn't suggest that most of the Greek R1b-Z2103 was either Doric Greek, or that it came from the central Balkans during the Late Bronze Age.

But aside of all these, since we have that Philistian R1b-M269 (likely R1b-Z2103) sample, it is suggestive that it could likewise be very common among Mycenaeans and that it didn't peak in southern Greece during the Bronze Age collapse with the arrival of Dorian Greeks. Also, take note that R1b-Z2103 peaks in regions of the former Mycenaean civilization (Peloponnese, Attica, Cyclades), and concerning Magna Graecia, in regions that were colonized mainly by Achaeans (descendants of that Mycenaean civilization), namely Calabria, as seen in this map,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Magna_Graecia_ancient_colonies_and_dialects-en.svg/638px-Magna_Graecia_ancient_colonies_and_dialects-en.svg.png. Not the Dorian regions of Apulia and southern Sicily. That is additional corroboration to suggest that R1b-Z2103 could essentially be an Achaean common haplogroup, not a Doric one, in a Greek context.
View attachment 11750
What regions exactly do you consider as Central Balkan? The eastern half of Slavonia in Croatia could be considered somewhat Central Balkan geographically, but then again it could also be considered as a part of the Western Balkans.

Some of the Z2103 in Greeks does come from later migrations from further north. A branch that comes into mind is Z2705 which is closesly associated with the Proto-Albanians and Albanian expansion as a whole. The presence of Z2705 in Greece can be attributed to the Albanian (Arvanite) migrations during the Medieval. Not sure what percentage of Greek Z2103 is Z2705+, but a rather considerable amount does seem to be as such.
Then there are also older clades that could be associated with the Proto-Greeks, such as clades under L584. Armenians also have high percentages of L584, possibly confirming the connection between Greeks and Armenians that has been theorised by linguists. The problem is that Greeks rarely do NGS tests which makes it difficult to understand what haplogroups or branches can confidently be called "Greek" or "Hellenic". Future aDNA will clear things up I think.

Should also note that one of the Mycenaean samples have been classified as R-Z2103 according to one aDNA map that I have found. The sample has been labelled as "MycenaeanElite" and is dated back to 1,500 BCE. Not too sure if the classification is accurate though. https://indo-european.eu/ancient_dna/ydna-ytree/index.html
 
You are right, most Greeks that live in Greece could care less about genetics in general and haplogroups in particular. They could not see themselves spending $500 to find out the subclade they belong to. It is not important to them. The Greeks that you see in this forum are the minutest exceptions. Now if some research group offers to do these tests for free, then it would be OK. Take me, I did a test with Living DNA that included a haplogroup test. It labeled me as R1b M-269. Morley's has me as L-23. I am really not interested in paying big money to find out which subclade I belong to if any.
 
And will never be found?..DUDE what is that WRONG with this haplogroup that you wish so much that it will never be found?...this is really funny, there are no populations south balkans, north east, west ANYWHERE that they would not have at least some of all the haplogroups we usually mention...

As per samples check the study above, there are some samples of M269 (late bronze) in Thracia and as far as I know that is indeed South Balkans
View attachment 11748

in 2017 there was another Z2130 (bronze age) on around today Croatia I think, not S balkans but on balkans for sure...

ha?

dude,
I have nothing with any Hg,
simply, look at the forum posts,
most R1b carriers, try to connect it with Mycenean, Hellenic etc world,
Yet no result.
Yes modern Greece has, quite a lot, but not ancient world,

I still do not understand the effort of some people in this Forum to connect all ancient pre-Greek and Greek populations with R1b.
can you explain this to me?

Croatia offcourse, Romania offcourse, Serbia, Hungary, Bosnia offcourse,
about this you say,
Its Smyadovo tomb 28 and sample I2430
not far from Danube river roads,
with a stone axe, and in a strange body position,
Varna is the ultimate frontier of what is S Balkans
Yet so far....,
 
All calculators must be questioned.
If :
a) the samples arent representative, which can only be if they have a complete geographic spread , accounts for the demographic density, and be in sufficient numbers
b) collected scientifically
c) processed scientifically

then it would always skew the results and the conclusions.
It is what it is.
 
What regions exactly do you consider as Central Balkan? The eastern half of Slavonia in Croatia could be considered somewhat Central Balkan geographically, but then again it could also be considered as a part of the Western Balkans.

Some of the Z2103 in Greeks does come from later migrations from further north. A branch that comes into mind is Z2705 which is closesly associated with the Proto-Albanians and Albanian expansion as a whole. The presence of Z2705 in Greece can be attributed to the Albanian (Arvanite) migrations during the Medieval. Not sure what percentage of Greek Z2103 is Z2705+, but a rather considerable amount does seem to be as such.
Then there are also older clades that could be associated with the Proto-Greeks, such as clades under L584. Armenians also have high percentages of L584, possibly confirming the connection between Greeks and Armenians that has been theorised by linguists. The problem is that Greeks rarely do NGS tests which makes it difficult to understand what haplogroups or branches can confidently be called "Greek" or "Hellenic". Future aDNA will clear things up I think.

Should also note that one of the Mycenaean samples have been classified as R-Z2103 according to one aDNA map that I have found. The sample has been labelled as "MycenaeanElite" and is dated back to 1,500 BCE. Not too sure if the classification is accurate though. https://indo-european.eu/ancient_dna/ydna-ytree/index.html
I consider central Balkans the regions of Serbia, Kosovo, and parts of North Macedonia. In any case, that is of little importance, because it appears R-M269 (likely R-Z2103) was present (possible as a major clade) among Mycenaeans, and didn't just arrive during the LBA with the Dorian Greeks (among which could be insignificant after all). Finding an LBA central Balkan sample of R-Z2103 would only be of importance in our context, if R-M269 seemed to be totally absent from Bronze Age Mycenaean Greece, but seems it wasn't.

As for later intrusions of R-Z2103 subclades, sure, it would be rational to presume that even without any knowledge, and indeed, R-Z2705 seems to have an Albanian origin. But it is a stretch to be claiming R-Z2705 as considerable, when descendants of Arvanites in Greece as a whole are approximately 200,000-250,000, and from the few samples that have been tested for Y-DNA, R-M269 doesn't seem to be a prominent haplogroup among them,
http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ (down at the bottom the pie chart pertains to Arvanites' haplogroup distribution based on 14 samples, i know, few but still diverse). Nonetheless, there seems to be a Greek sample belonging to that clade, as is visible in YFull.

As for R-L584, yes it could be seen as a corroboration for what you write, but i am not aware of the frequency of R-L584 in Greece either. If it is rather small, then it could be due to an actual Armenian migration during the Medieval era,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Greece#Early_settlement.

Last, thanks for that map, it is very interesting. If this sample is actually factual, then it would only corroborate my case of R-Z2103 being a main clade among Mycenaeans, but the source seems to be Anthrogenica, and none of the samples that were published in the "
Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" paper identifies with it. After all, the paper only had a single Mycenaean male sample designated as J2a1. I am not excluding it, i would actually hope for it, but it would be nice to have the source (thread) and description of it.
 

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