Archetype0ne
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- Ethnic group
- Albanian
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- L283>Y21878>Y197198
A big "Like" from me.
Feel honored.
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A big "Like" from me.
@Angela, what do you think of the Armenoi sample i wrote of earlier? Has this been discussed in the thread?
Completely understandable. Your job is very tough as a moderator dealing with spammers, flame wars and what not, and you have a point.
About J2B2-L283 in the Italian Peninsula I would love your opinion? When does it date? Maybe this is more related to the Moots Paper, sorry for asking.
Thanks. Yeah, i agree with your and their input as well. As for your question of steppe average ancestry on the Mycenaean samples, it would be around 10%, and the Armenoi sample would be between 20-30%, if i recall correctly from the supplementary material.Yes, we discussed it, with some of the usual types trying to claim that the reason the sample is 30% steppe or so is because she was part of the elite, while the hoi polloi Mycenaeans were the ones with, if you average all the studies with all the various reference samples about what, 17%?
Ergo, the "real" Mycenaean Lords of legend had a significant amount of "steppe" ancestry, was the clear implication.
Of course, that ignores the fact that there was an elite sample in the mainland which had the same autosomal make up as the others.
It also ignores the fact that the Crete sample is from a later period and might be admixed, given that "Minoans" were such seafarers.
It's always best to stick with the paper, imo:
""Cretan from ArmenoiThis individual has only 42,052 SNPs covered in the HOIll dataset and it belongs to a later period(Late Minoan III A-B ~ 1400-1200 BC) than the samples from Moni Odigitria and Lasithi. It does notform a clade with any single (N=1) population of the All set (p-value for rank=0 < 0.001). There areseveral models that fit (p-value for rank=1 > 0.05) for N=2 that agree on this individual having mostof its ancestry from Anatolian Neolithic-related population with additional ancestry from easternEuropean/North Eurasian hunter-gatherers (Table S2.7), as also suggested by the shift of thisindividual in PCA relative to other Minoans and indeed even the Mycenaeans (Fig. 1b). Weacknowledge the possibility that there was geographical structure in the Bronze Age Cretanpopulation (the Armenoi sample comes from northwestern Crete; Fig. 1a), or that population changehad occurred between the time of the samples from Moni Odigitria and Lasithi and the time of thisindividual, however, the lack of high quality data does not allow us to test these hypotheses further."
That's the sensible and logical conclusion, typical of the work of this group.
Btw, I share some dna with her if mta is to be believed, so I really would like to know for personal reasons as well, but given the quality of the sample, it's probably just guesswork as to what she represents. She might be more like the Mycenaeans than it seems or less. Who knows?
It peters out a bit by the time it gets to my area of Italy, but still pretty strong. Good. It's my favorite ancient culture.
Interesting how it's a bit darker around Marseilles than around Liguria. It's the effects of Greek colonization around Massalia, perhaps?
There's also a big difference between Cyprus and neighboring areas of the Levant and Turkey. For Turkey I always think the actual relatively recent actual "Turkic" ancestry screws up the similarities a bit.
Interesting for Turkey too--the affinity to modern Turks seems pretty even throughout Turkey (i.e. not too much), but western Turks (especially southwestern) are the Turks with the most actual "Turkic" ancestry. I'm surprised the affinity isn't higher in other areas of Turkey.
Higher percentages of CHG/Iranian Neo? Particularly in the east?
The designation "Ancient Greek" is very broad and can include anything from Mycenaean Greek, to Archaic Greek (including Epic/Homeric Greek), to Classical Greek, to Hellenistic/Koine Greek, and even to a number of different dialects for each period prior to Koine. People though mostly use the term "Ancient Greek" to refer to Classical Attic, since it's the dialect with most of the available original literary material. Anyway, in terms of language (i assume you meant modern) closest to Ancient Greek (regardless of period or dialect) then the answer is obviously Modern Greek. Furthermore, Modern Greek also has a number of dialects and idioms, but they are all (except the aforementioned Tsakonian which is traced to Doric) traced to Koine Greek, which is also known as Hellenistic Greek or Biblical Greek. If you meant to ask, which modern Greek dialect is closest to an Ancient Greek dialect prior to Koine, then the answer would be Tsakonian for Doric and the Ophitic variant of Pontic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek#Ophitic) for Attic/Ionic.what language is closest to ancient greek ?
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This study/thread, certainly has influenced me to feel more of a connection with Greeks. Though, my mother's family specifically, always said that they believed they were partly-Greek or more Greek-like, given the history of their town, and region. I was happy to see that the connection verified; despite being 99% sure about it, prior.
If one goes to the Met in NYC, or the great museums in London, and Berlin; they can see an abundance of Ancient Greek pottery and artifacts from Puglia.
certainly informative. so these dialects all represent an isolate and arent related to any of the celtic languages ?The designation "Ancient Greek" is very broad and can include anything from Mycenaean Greek, to Archaic Greek (including Epic/Homeric Greek), to Classical Greek, to Hellenistic/Koine Greek, and even to a number of different dialects for each period prior to Koine. People though mostly use the term "Ancient Greek" to refer to Classical Attic, since it's the dialect with most of the available original literary material. Anyway, in terms of language (i assume you meant modern) closest to Ancient Greek (regardless of period or dialect) then the answer is obviously Modern Greek. Furthermore, Modern Greek also has a number of dialects and idioms, but they are all (except the aforementioned Tsakonian which is traced to Doric) traced to Koine Greek, which is also known as Hellenistic Greek or Biblical Greek. If you meant to ask, which modern Greek dialect is closest to an Ancient Greek dialect prior to Koine, then the answer would be Tsakonian for Doric and the Ophitic variant of Pontic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek#Ophitic) for Attic/Ionic.
My family is 100% from the province of Bari.Jovialis, where were your parents/grandparents from, which part of Italy?
Only Tsakonian can be considered an isolated dialect, and some even classify it as an independent Hellenic language since it has diverged considerably from the other dialects. On the other hand the Ophitic variant of Pontic Greek is simply the most conservative descendant of Attic/Ionic, which is where all other Greek dialects descend from likewise, through Koine Greek, and hence not an isolated dialect. As for your last question, Greek is generally not related to Celtic. If anything Celtic shares similarities mostly with Italic, hence the hypothetical grouping of the Italo-Celtic branch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic) in an Indo-European context.certainly informative. so these dialects all represent an isolate and arent related to any of the celtic languages ?
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My family is 100% from the province of Bari.
... hope you had a good time in Salento, my Town is 5 km (about 3 miles) from LecceDrove through it on the way back to Rome from Lecce. So it stands to chance that your folks had some interaction with Balkanites at some point or another.
Roca (archaeological site)
Mycenaeans, Messapi, ...
University of Salento, ... some of the best-preserved monumental architecture of the Bronze Age (2nd millennium BC) in Southern Italy, along with the largest set of Mycenaean pottery ever recovered west of mainland Greece.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roca_(archaeological_site)
Mycenaean Era
Northern Gate of the Messapic Walls
I do not understand why Albanians and Greeks seem to always argue. Given how similar their genetic makeup is.
Its akin to disliking your own kin... Gotta hate politics man.
I say love your neighbor. We can discuss and argument without getting at each others throats maybe?
If we stay at the same region for centuries or either millennia, than obviously Greeks and Albans would be autosomally close. However the ydna is important here to understand our origins, especially for the question on this thread.Y dna represents only 2% of your genome. I wouldn't get so worked up about it. Autosomally, mainland Greeks and Albanians are pretty similar. Indeed, Albanians in some graphs are within Modern Northern Greek variation, a subset, if you will.
I'm half Eastern Ligurian/Tuscan, and I get some similarity to Mycenaeans, although not like Southern Italians or Greek Islanders. If there are no Northern Italians on a calculator I come out either Bulgarian or Albanian. If more Albanians posted their results I'm pretty sure they'd get some matches to Mycenaeans as well.
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