Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

I don't think this thread is a Greek one. It's about Minoans and Mycenians and concerns Greek in the sense they are for a great part descendants of Mycenians, but it concerns other southern Europeans and in some way, culturally speaking, all Europeans. But even if recent history is interesting, it would not be too profitable to speak of too recent events in Greece history, without too much links with the Proto-historic period. Not to say nothing is interesting in some points made in the last parts of the thread.
I have the impression this thread could turn into an Albania-Greece contest. (half LOL)

This study/thread, certainly has influenced me to feel more of a connection with Greeks. Though, my mother's family specifically, always said that they believed they were partly-Greek or more Greek-like, given the history of their town, and region. I was happy to see that the connection verified; despite being 99% sure about it, prior.

If one goes to the Met in NYC, or the great museums in London, and Berlin; they can see an abundance of Ancient Greek pottery and artifacts from Puglia.
 
Nik, all your posts on the Arvanites are totally off topic, and have nothing to do with the discussion here.

I will not tolerate provocative posts meant to start another one of your stupid Balkan wars.

All of them will deleted, and you will get an infraction.

From now on, any such posts will automatically be deleted and you will get another infraction.

Civilized discussion ends when you start this crap.

Everybody else, and I mean everybody, is sick of it.

STOP.

This all applies to you too, Laberia.

This is going to end.
Did you remember to issue an infraction to yourself and other members every time you mentioned Italians and modern Greeks?

Remember, this topic is about Minoans and Mycenaeans. If someone can talk about modern Peloponnesians, Tsakonians, and Lakonians for pages, I'm allowed to talk about Arvanites whose presence in Peloponnese is for more than 600 years and use them as a factor that shifted the local autosomal admix North.
 
Did you remember to issue an infraction to yourself and other members every time you mentioned Italians and modern Greeks?

Remember, this topic is about Minoans and Mycenaeans. If someone can talk about modern Peloponnesians, Tsakonians, and Lakonians for pages, I'm allowed to talk about Arvanites whose presence in Peloponnese is for more than 600 years and use them as a factor that shifted the local autosomal admix North.

You just earned yourself another infraction for resisting moderation.

Other members here are tired of you and your clique ruining every thread about ancient dna with spam about Arvanites most often having nothing to do with the topic.

This thread is about the ORIGIN of Mycenaeans and Minoans and modern GENETIC relationships to them.

If you want to post some DATA about the genetic relatedness of modern Arvanites to the Mycenaeans and Minoans, go ahead. That means comparisons of the dna of modern Arvanites to the ancient samples, not endlessly repeated posts about where they migrated to and when.

If you don't have the data get it.



We get it. Albanians moved to Greece. To keep endlessly repeating it is spamming.
 
This study/thread, certainly has influenced me to feel more of a connection with Greeks. Though, my mother's family specifically, always said that they believed they were partly-Greek or more Greek-like, given the history of their town, and region. I was happy to see that the connection verified; despite being 99% sure about it, prior.

If one goes to the Met in NYC, or the great museums in London, and Berlin; they can see an abundance of Ancient Greek pottery and artifacts from Puglia.

Sure, even outside the genetic aspect, which covers before, during and maybe after Great Rome, the cultural one shows what post-Italics people (and us in some part, as a 'domino' effect, even if sometimes this is a bit exagerated) owes to Greek ancient culture.
 
Did you remember to issue an infraction to yourself and other members every time you mentioned Italians and modern Greeks?

Remember, this topic is about Minoans and Mycenaeans. If someone can talk about modern Peloponnesians, Tsakonians, and Lakonians for pages, I'm allowed to talk about Arvanites whose presence in Peloponnese is for more than 600 years and use them as a factor that shifted the local autosomal admix North.

I would not be so hard as Angela, but if, yes, you have right to speak about these events, I find more productive to keep closer to the very thread and the times involved. I 'm not against these endless discussions, but then, in an appropriate thread. Everybody of us, or close to, did some disgressions sometimes, but it's good knowing when to stop it. No offense.
 
Greeks could have been shifted north due to additional LBA migrations as well, which could have also been part of a more conservative proto-Greek cluster that hadn't mixed as much with pre-Greek populations. In the study we also have the female sample from "Armenoi" Crete dated to the 14th century BCE, which is essentially part of the modern Greek cluster. Then there was also this twitter post by Lazaridis, https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/892931776372498434. But the supplementary information states that the Necropolis of Armenoi where this sample was recovered from dates to 1390-1190 BCE, therefore most certainly LBA. Don't know if it has been touched upon in this thread since i wasn't here from the beginning.
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To me Albanians and Greeks do not seem that far off genetically, so if we can talk about modern Greeks in this thread, I do not see why not we can talk about Albanians and Arvanitas. But maybe I am wrong.
 
Edit: Double posted... zzz
 
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Minoans' affinity to modern populations.

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Back to point.

IMHO since Minoan times, the individual shares genetic resemblance to the whole area of Roman Empire excluding North Africa and the English Chanel. The world was pretty Interconnected at that time.
 
Angela when do you think J2B2-L283 got to the Italian Peninsula?Since that strikingly resembles J2B2 frequency maps.

View attachment 11627

It gives me an error when I embed with imgur link I wonder why... So an attachment has to do.
 
Lots of Greeks live or used to live in what is today southern Albania, probably for many years. What role do they play in the relative genetic closeness between Albania and Mycenaeans? The settlement question could be a two-way street, many Albanians moved to Greece but many Greeks lived or live in southern Albania. I read that a village in the Peloponnese was founded by Greeks from Himera or somewhere else, who were fleeing the Ottomans.
 
You write, "I expressed my opinion that just like everyone else in the Balkans, their audna got Northern shifted. DONE!".
And it has been explained to you multiple times that their atDNA didn't got northern shifted. It has been stressed that they have an insignificant frequency (below 1%) of Slavic admixture compared to their surrounding populations, in fact the lowest.

You write, "
But then Demetrios and Angela got triggered because they saw Ethnic Group: Albanian, and ofc due to past events from 10 years ago from other Albanians, lets just give this guy enough infractions and shut him up too.".
I wasn't even around 10 years ago, i don't even know to what you are referring. My active experience with this forum is less than a year, and i have noticed that many Albanians are very provocative and always trying to promote a nationalistic agenda. I do know why they do it, but i wouldn't want to be provocative in return by expanding on the reasons.

You write, "
while the guy spams with his signature style "You wrote...", I end up getting blamed for triggering him.".
Why do you think the "you write" signature is provocative? I have been using this with almost everyone i have interacted here, even the ones i have had quite civilized and fruitful discussions such as @tyuiopman. Yet you think i am being provocative just because of this. If you were to write a single sentence or paragraph i wouldn't be using this template of response, i would simply reply with the "Reply with Quote" button.

You write, "
And of course he didn't get any infractions from being over sensitive, thinking I'm gonna claim him people or smth but openly claiming that Albanians are by large old Corinthians from 5th century BC. Very logical.".
Nobody claimed that, i stressed that the genetic affinity of Greeks and Albanians is mainly due to both being palaeo-Balkan populations, go read my answer again. And then i simply touched upon migrations as well since you were the one who brought them up in a non-detailed way by simply writing the following quote, "
and on top of that many migrations brought us genetically closer.". I just elaborated a little on that. After all it's a historical and archaeological fact that modern Albania had many coastal Greek colonies, let alone its south which was home to many indigenous Greek tribes.

You write, "
I strongly believe we should be focusing more on Crete in order to get a better picture of ancient Greeks since their government is not very keen in giving permissions for testing ancient tombs.".
Whose government? Please elaborate on that.
 
Lots of Greeks live or used to live in what is today southern Albania, probably for many years. What role do they play in the relative genetic closeness between Albania and Mycenaeans? The settlement question could be a two-way street, many Albanians moved to Greece but many Greeks lived or live in southern Albania. I read that a village in the Peloponnese was founded by Greeks from Himera or somewhere else, who were fleeing the Ottomans.
Your post is inaccurate and i have to remeber that you are off-topic.

Edit.
Here is the right thread to explain your opinion:
[h=1]South Albania or Epir.[/h]
 
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Your post is totally inaccurate, in every single word and i have to remeber that you are off-topic.
The modern region of Albania had indigenous Greek tribes in the south and coastal Greek colonies in the center and north during antiquity. Even today there is a Greek ethnic minority inhabiting the south, albeit 70% migrated to Greece when the Communist regime fell, nonetheless they continue to be members of the minority and also have the right to vote if they want to.
 
I do not understand why Albanians and Greeks seem to always argue. Given how similar their genetic makeup is.
Its akin to disliking your own kin... Gotta hate politics man.

I say love your neighbor. We can discuss and argument without getting at each others throats maybe?
 
To me Albanians and Greeks do not seem that far off genetically, so if we can talk about modern Greeks in this thread, I do not see why not we can talk about Albanians and Arvanitas. But maybe I am wrong.

The actual topic of the thread is the GENETIC ORIGINS of Minoans and Mycenaeans.

Discussing the GENETIC relatedness of modern populations like Greeks, Italians or anyone else to the Minoan and Mycenaean samples is an acceptable digression so long as it is based on GENETIC FACTS.

The history of when different groups arrived in Greece and how that EXPLAINS the Genetics is appropriate, but it's not a SUBSTITUTE for that data.
We have genetic data for the Greeks from academic papers, including this one. We don't have Albanian data.

If our Albanian members wish to prove whatever point they're trying to make, which isn't even clear to me, because no one is denying that migration to the Greek mainland pulled Greek mainlanders further from the Mycenaeans and Minoans, they're free to post private genetic data from Albanians, Arvanites from the Peloponnesus etc. comparing them to Mycenaeans. In fact, I would love to see it.

It's a not inconsiderable expense for three or four people to be sampled and tested from each of those groups at something like 23andme/AncestryDna, and then uploaded to something like mytrueancestry.com., so I would suggest crowd funding for it.

Then the controversy would be over.

As for the Mani and other nearby groups it would be great if our Greek members could do the same.

What is needed is DATA, not the endless spamming of information about this village or that village unsupported by genetic FACTS.

I can't make it any clearer than that.
 
I do not understand why Albanians and Greeks seem to always argue. Given how similar their genetic makeup is.
Its akin to disliking your own kin... Gotta hate politics man.

I say love your neighbor. We can discuss and argument without getting at each others throats maybe?
I liked your post because i have said this in the past as well and i agree.
 
Completely understandable. Your job is very tough as a moderator dealing with spammers, flame wars and what not, and you have a point.

About J2B2-L283 in the Italian Peninsula I would love your opinion? When does it date? Maybe this is more related to the Moots Paper, sorry for asking.
 
@Angela, what do you think of the Armenoi sample i wrote of earlier? Has this been discussed in the thread?
 
I do not understand why Albanians and Greeks seem to always argue. Given how similar their genetic makeup is.
Its akin to disliking your own kin... Gotta hate politics man.

I say love your neighbor. We can discuss and argument without getting at each others throats maybe?

A big "Like" from me.
 

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