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    13 out of 14 members found this post helpful.

    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    YEAH! Finally.

    See: Lazaridis et al
    https://www.nature.com/articles/natu...o4hKeBf7fel4E9



    "The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1, 2, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and Iran4, 5. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6, 7, 8, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1, 6, 9 or Armenia4, 9. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations."

    Admixture analysis- See:
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re23310_SF1.html

    Y dna from page 52 of the supplement:
    Y dna from Lazardis et al on ancient Greek dna.PNG

    The Bronze Age Anatolia individual:
    "This individual wasancestral for the major subclade3 P58 (J1a2b; previously designated3 J1e) and could thus bedesignated as J1a(xJ1a2b)."

    "I0070 (Minoan from Lasithi)This individual was derived for mutation M319:15467785T->A (J2a1d) as well as upstream mutationsL26:22942897T->C (J2a1) and M410:2751678A->G, L212:22711465T->C (J2a). He was not foundto be ancestral for any downstream mutations and could be designated as J2a1d. Haplogroup M319was found4 at a frequency of 8.8% in one sample set of 193 present-day Cretans (95% confidenceinterval from the binomial distribution 5.2-13.7%) and 5.4% in another set5 of 168 Cretans (95% C.I.:2.5-10%), but no examples were found in a combined sample set of 171 Greeks from three locationsnear early Neolithic settlements in mainland Greece (95% C.I: 0-2.1%). A re-analysis4 of large set of523 present-day Anatolian males6 revealed only 2 examples of M319 in this population (95% C.I.: 0-1.4%). Thus, it appears plausible that this represents a Y-chromosome lineage that existed in MinoanCrete but was at a lower (or absent) frequency in neighboring mainland Greece and Anatolia and itsoccurrence in present-day Cretans represents continuity with those of the Bronze Age."

    "I0073 (Minoan from Lasithi)This individual was derived for mutation L26:22942897T->C (J2a1) as well as upstream mutationsM410, L559, L152 (J2a). He was ancestral for several downstream haplogroups: M322:15469740C->A (J2a1a), L560:21899860C->T (J2a1b1a), M166:21764694C->T (J2a1b2), M68:21878700A->G(J2a1c), M339:2881367T->G (J2a1e), L24:14286528G->A (J2a1h), L88.2:17595842T->C andL198:17595861A->C (J2a1i). He could thus be designated as J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1a, J2a1b2, J2a1c,J2a1e, J2a1h, J2a1i)."

    "I9130 (Minoan from Moni Odigitria)This individual was derived for mutations CTS946:7100848A->G (G2a2b2a) and upstream mutationsF3088:20813445G->A and M3397:21605685G->C (G2a). He was ancestral for downstreammutations CTS4803:15833180G->A (G2a2b2a1b1a2a) and Z3423:19251438G->T (G2a2b2a1c1a).He could thus be designated as G2a2b2a(xG2a2b2a1b1a2a, G2a2b2a1c1a). G2a2 Y-chromosomeswere common in Neolithic Europe7, western Anatolia8,9, and Neolithic mainland Greece9. We havealso re-analyzed data from a recent study of central Anatolian Neolithic genomes10, determining thatthey were present there during both the Aceramic phase at Boncuklu (2 G2a2b2b samples) and later atTepecik-Çiftlik (1 G2a2a sample). Plausibly, the Minoan from Moni Odigitria who belonged to thislineage was also related to the same group of early Neolithic farmers as those from Europe, mainlandGreece, and Anatolia."

    "I9041 (Mycenaean from Galatas Apatheia in the Peloponnese)This individual was derived for mutations L26:22942897T->C and F4326:23021978A->G (J2a1) aswell as upstream mutations M410:2751678A->G, L559:21674327A->G, L152:22243566C->T,L212:22711465T->C (J2a). He was ancestral for M322:15469740C->A (J2a1a), M260:15025506G->A and M92:21904023T->C (J2a1b1), M166:21764694C->T (J2a1b2), L210:16492197A->T(J2a1b3), M68:21878700A->G (J2a1c), M339:2881367T->G (J2a1e), P81:6739856G->A (J2a1g),L207.1:6753448A->G and L24:14286528G->A (J2a1h), L88.2:17595842T->C andL198:17595861A->C (J2a1i). He could thus be designated as J2a1x(J2a1a, J2a1b1, J2a1b2, J2a1c,J2a1e, J2a1g, J2a1h, J2a1i)."

    "More sampling of ancient populations is needed to establish the presence (and frequency) ofhaplogroup J in the Aegean and neighboring regions). However, (i) the great time depth of itspresence in the Caucasus/Iran, together with (ii) its low frequency/absence in NeolithicGreece/Anatolia, and (iii) its appearance in the samples of our study, lead us to believe that it mayhave accompanied the genetic admixture (Neolithic Iran/Caucasus-hunter-gatherer related) that seemsto have affected all populations in our study (Supplementary Information, section 2). Thus, the Ychromosometurnover that occurred in central Europe during the Bronze Age7,19 may also haveoccurred in the Aegean, with a different set of incoming lineages."

    So we've been saying here for a long time. Perhaps it's time to put some of the more exotic explanations to rest.
    Last edited by Angela; 08-08-17 at 01:46.


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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    For those interested in phenotypic data:

    The actual snp data is on page 59 of the Supplement.
    https://images.nature.com/full/natur...re23310-s1.pdf

    Attachment 8993

    "Present-day Europeans are almost fixed for the derived (light pigmentation) allele G atrs1426654, but the ancestral allele occurred in western European hunter-gatherers3,4. Werecord no copy of the ancestral allele in 9 individuals with at least one sequence. We alsoexamined the rs16891982 SNP in SLC45A2, the second strongest signal of selection inEuropeans discovered in a genome-wide scan3. The overall frequency of the C allele could beestimated as 24% (C.I.: 8-47%) in the Aegean Bronze Age. The frequency of the minor Callele in present-day Greeks is 14% (95% C.I.: 11-17%)5. The C allele has decreased infrequency in eastern Europe6 or Europe in general3 due to likely selection since the BronzeAge, but with the available data, the Bronze Age frequency is consistent with its modernprevalence."

    "Classic blond hair has been associated with the C allele in the rs12821256 SNP in KITLG9.We have reads covering this site in 11 individuals and do not detect the C allele."

    "The rs12913832 SNP in HERC2 is a major determinant of blue eye color in humans7. Thefrequency of the A allele could be estimated as 86% (C.I.: 64-98%) in the Bronze AgeAegean. The G allele was present in Anatolia since Neolithic times3and our results suggest itspresence in all studied Bronze Age groups at a low frequency."

    "These results suggest that ancient Bronze Age individuals from the Aegean and southwesternAnatolia had mostly dark (brown or black) hair and brown eyes. Blue eyes were uncommonas predicted by the lack of homozygotes for the G allele at rs12913832 which is the majorpredictor of this trait, however, this allele did occur in all studied populations (Table S4.1),thus the phenotype would have been uncommon but not unknown in the region. The browneye phenotype is still the most common in present-day Greeks occurring in ~3/4 of them, withthe remainder split between blue and intermediate shades1. Similarly, ~79% of present-dayGreeks have light or dark brown hair, with the remainder split between blond and black."

    So much for blonde-blue eyed Mycenaeans.

    I guess this reconstruction of the Mycenaean "Griffin warrior" may be pretty accurate, despite all the naysayers.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For those interested in phenotypic data:

    The actual snp data is on page 59 of the Supplement.
    https://images.nature.com/full/natur...re23310-s1.pdf

    Attachment 8993

    "Present-day Europeans are almost fixed for the derived (light pigmentation) allele G atrs1426654, but the ancestral allele occurred in western European hunter-gatherers3,4. Werecord no copy of the ancestral allele in 9 individuals with at least one sequence. We alsoexamined the rs16891982 SNP in SLC45A2, the second strongest signal of selection inEuropeans discovered in a genome-wide scan3. The overall frequency of the C allele could beestimated as 24% (C.I.: 8-47%) in the Aegean Bronze Age. The frequency of the minor Callele in present-day Greeks is 14% (95% C.I.: 11-17%)5. The C allele has decreased infrequency in eastern Europe6 or Europe in general3 due to likely selection since the BronzeAge, but with the available data, the Bronze Age frequency is consistent with its modernprevalence."

    "Classic blond hair has been associated with the C allele in the rs12821256 SNP in KITLG9.We have reads covering this site in 11 individuals and do not detect the C allele."

    "The rs12913832 SNP in HERC2 is a major determinant of blue eye color in humans7. Thefrequency of the A allele could be estimated as 86% (C.I.: 64-98%) in the Bronze AgeAegean. The G allele was present in Anatolia since Neolithic times3and our results suggest itspresence in all studied Bronze Age groups at a low frequency."

    "These results suggest that ancient Bronze Age individuals from the Aegean and southwesternAnatolia had mostly dark (brown or black) hair and brown eyes. Blue eyes were uncommonas predicted by the lack of homozygotes for the G allele at rs12913832 which is the majorpredictor of this trait, however, this allele did occur in all studied populations (Table S4.1),thus the phenotype would have been uncommon but not unknown in the region. The browneye phenotype is still the most common in present-day Greeks occurring in ~3/4 of them, withthe remainder split between blue and intermediate shades1. Similarly, ~79% of present-dayGreeks have light or dark brown hair, with the remainder split between blond and black."

    So much for blonde-blue eyed Mycenaeans.

    I guess this reconstruction of the Mycenaean "Griffin warrior" may be pretty accurate, despite all the naysayers.


    This app is actually really interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    He looks like Nikos Kourkoulis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    He looks like Nikos Kourkoulis.
    I thought curly hair had African background.... Ev13


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I thought curly hair had African background.... Ev13


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    in caucasos in some parts the curly hair is more than african grape style,

    all over J2 is expand curly hair is significant %
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    He looks like Nikos Kourkoulis.
    Holy crap. He does.




    First thing that came into my mind was Takis Tsoukalas.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    These phenotypes have probably been in Greece for a very long time. Bad news for Nordicists and Fallmerayer types who say today's Greeks are little or nothing more than Hellenized Slavs, Albanians, Turks and others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    These phenotypes have probably been in Greece for a very long time. Bad news for Nordicists and Fallmerayer types who say today's Greeks are little or nothing more than Hellenized Slavs, Albanians, Turks and others.
    This isn't so. For 2000 years there have been numerous migrations and invasions.
    This Ottoman success paved the way for Gazi Hüseyin Pasha, the local commander, to conquer the eastern half of the island, except for the fortress of Siteia. The Venetians and the local population suffered some grievous losses: it is estimated that by 1648, almost 40% of the Cretan population had perished of disease or warfare, and in 1677, the island's pre-war population of ca. 260,000 had dropped to about 80,000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    This isn't so. For 2000 years there have been numerous migrations and invasions.
    This Ottoman success paved the way for Gazi Hüseyin Pasha, the local commander, to conquer the eastern half of the island, except for the fortress of Siteia. The Venetians and the local population suffered some grievous losses: it is estimated that by 1648, almost 40% of the Cretan population had perished of disease or warfare, and in 1677, the island's pre-war population of ca. 260,000 had dropped to about 80,000.
    @ihype02

    What does this have to do with what Raphieboy said? Or what the dna samples are telling us? What is not so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    These phenotypes have probably been in Greece for a very long time. Bad news for Nordicists and Fallmerayer types who say today's Greeks are little or nothing more than Hellenized Slavs, Albanians, Turks and others.

    EDIT:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33711-Genetics-of-the-Greek-Peleponessus/page19?p=516965&viewfull=1#post516965
    Last edited by Jovialis; 14-08-17 at 22:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So much for blonde-blue eyed Mycenaeans.

    In almost all ancient Greek vases the people appear with dark hair. In mosaics they tend to be lighter though.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Indeed. The Mycenaeans seem to be clustering with Sicilians. Ashkenazi too, so I wonder if it's possible that the Philistines will turn out to be pretty close to Mycenaneans, and the Philistines started the change we see in Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed. The Mycenaeans seem to be clustering with Sicilians. Ashkenazi too, so I wonder if it's possible that the Philistines will turn out to be pretty close to Mycenaneans, and the Philistines started the change we see in Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.
    Ha!!! I wonder how Nordicists feel about Mycenaens being closer to Ashkenazim/Sephardic Jews and South Italians! There will be many tears shed on Stormfront over this paper.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Ha!!! I wonder how Nordicists feel about Mycenaens being closer to Ashkenazim/Sephardic Jews and South Italians! There will be many tears shed on Stormfront over this paper.
    They're not the only ones.

    Whatever will a certain person do if it turns out that Sicilians are indeed very close to ancient Greeks?

    It doesn't bear thinking about!!! :)

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Ha!!! I wonder how Nordicists feel about Mycenaens being closer to Ashkenazim/Sephardic Jews and South Italians! There will be many tears shed on Stormfront over this paper.
    Exactly, not only the Nordicists, but also some nordicist who pretends to be a mediterranicist. :)

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed. The Mycenaeans seem to be clustering with Sicilians. Ashkenazi too, so I wonder if it's possible that the Philistines will turn out to be pretty close to Mycenaneans, and the Philistines started the change we see in Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.
    Nah, Philistines will cluster with ancient Egyptians and Canaanites.

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    0 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Nice, the continuity of the groovy Greeks is proven once more. For those "naysayers", Greece strong!

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    Does this article also prove the "Dorian Invasion" in a sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
    Does this article also prove the "Dorian Invasion" in a sense?

    Dorian Invasion is an inner ddevastation on NW Greeks to S Greeks
    and is much much younger for at least 1500 years from the bellow
    Maybe you reffering to the Mycenean descent that came from Istros (Δουναβης)

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    Yes Yetos, you are correct. My bad here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Dorian Invasion is an inner ddevastation on NW Greeks to S Greeks
    and is much much younger for at least 1500 years from the bellow
    Maybe you reffering to the Mycenean descent that came from Istros (Δουναβης)

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    [QUOTE=Diomedes;516171]Yes Yetos, you are correct. My bad here.[/

    Don't you worry Diomedes, Maciamo has done the same mistake as you in his post above....:I quote" This suggests that numerous waves of European invaders (Dorians, Celts, Romans, Goths, Slavs) contributed to a large share of modern Greek DNA." Maybe Yetos can shed some light here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Don't you worry Diomedes, Maciamo has done the same mistake as you in his post above....:I quote" This suggests that numerous waves of European invaders (Dorians, Celts, Romans, Goths, Slavs) contributed to a large share of modern Greek DNA." Maybe Yetos can shed some light here.
    I suppose you are referring to the Dorian invasion. The fact is that we still don't know where the Dorians originated, except that they came from the north. This could have been in northern Greece or Macedonia, but also from Albania or further north in the Balkans. They might also have been a hybrid population of foreign invaders and assimilated northern Greeks, who joined up forces to run over central and southern Greece. It's often the case with invasions. In the context of the turmoils of 1200 BCE around the East Med, it's quite likely that some foreign invaders did participate to the Dorian invasion following the civilisation collapse in Greece proper.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
    Does this article also prove the "Dorian Invasion" in a sense?
    Dorian invasion theory has been tested and disproven by geneticists.


    Triandafilidis says in his book "The genetic history of Greece" that there was no alteration in the genetic material
    of the Greek population Prior and After the event of the so-called Dorian invasion.

    Dorians after all were a Hellenic tribe who spoke a dialect of Greek and are described to trace their ancestor to the same
    common ancestor Hellen as the other Hellenic tribes,in Greek mythology

    Hellen was a son of Deukalion who was a Pelasgian according to ancient Greek tradition.


    Also except of the lack of any genetic evidence there is also lack of any archeological evidence to support
    the claim of such an event as referred to Dorian invasion.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    Dorian invasion theory has been tested and disproven by geneticists.
    Triandafilidis says in his book "The genetic history of Greece" that there was no alteration in the genetic material
    of the Greek population Prior and After the event of the so-called Dorian invasion.
    Dorians after all were a Hellenic tribe who spoke a dialect of Greek and are described to trace their ancestor to the same
    common ancestor Hellen as the other Hellenic tribes,in Greek mythology
    Hellen was a son of Deukalion who was a Pelasgian according to ancient Greek tradition.
    Also except of the lack of any genetic evidence there is also lack of any archeological evidence to support
    the claim of such an event as referred to Dorian invasion.
    How disapproved ?
    Clearly the Dorians lived on the adriatic coast somewhere, how else did they have a navy to conquer crete, rhodes and other greek islands from the myceneans.
    my guess would be natural forested lands like modern Montenegro and south dalmatia for the timber. we are talking about bronze-age
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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