Pax Augusta
Elite member
David simply posted the best qpADM models for Italians and Greeks using only ancient DNA.
He posted the best qpADM models for him.
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David simply posted the best qpADM models for Italians and Greeks using only ancient DNA.
I find it interesting how modern Greeks aren't exactly the same as Myceaneans and how modern Egyptians aren't exactly the same as ancient Egyptians. In each case, the ethnic-identity remained but foreign admixture made a significant but not overwhelming impact. Now I expect the same to be true for many ancient/modern ethnic groups.
Yeah, they arrived with their chariots and dragon boats. We all know the Mycenaeans were a cannibalistic tribe who chucked spears, beat their women, and lacked a formal language due to lack of prefrontal development until the master race arrived and made them "superior".
;p
There is no master race. You being part Jewish you should be extra sensitive to that as the Nazis killed you guys in the hopes of breeding a Master race and eliminating inferior races...it's not funny.
;pYeah, they arrived with their chariots and dragon boats. We all know the Mycenaeans were a cannibalistic tribe who chucked spears, beat their women, and lacked a formal language due to lack of prefrontal development until the master race arrived and made them "superior".
There is no master race. You being part Jewish you should be extra sensitive to that as the Nazis killed you guys in the hopes of breeding a Master race and eliminating inferior races...it's not funny.
davef was ironic.
Davidski: "I don't know where the Greeks in my model are from. But they are a little more northern shifted than some of the my other Greek sets"
On some analyses, like Haak et al, the Greeks seem to have less steppe than the Tuscans, but they have some WHG (2-3 points) which the Tuscans don't have, and these are definitely the northern Greeks of Thessaly. There were virtually no mesolithic hunter-gatherers of the WHG type in Greece (or the Balkans, until you got up to the Iron Gates), so I think this is some of that "extra WHG" which may have accompanied various migrations from the north into Greece in relatively more recent times, but which didn't make their way into Italy.
Yeah, Myceanean's almost definitely did have some Steppe ancestry (15-20%)
That's my overall impression too, that (Central and Southern) Italians seem to have higher EEF(+WHG) while mainland Greeks seem to have higher steppe+Iran. Probably due to continuing contacts of Greece with Anatolia and North(east) Europe I mentioned that didn't involve much of Italy (in comparison to the Slavs in the Balkans, the "Germanic" input in Italy seems to be quite low based on modern data). The Eurasian PCAs seem to point towards that too, with Italians more on the Neolithic side of things towards the bottom part and the Albanians and Greeks right next to them but a bit more towards the upper, steppe-Iran/Caucasus, side.
Though to be fair the higher percentage seems to be with later steppe groups that already had increased EEF ancestry. With early steppe groups (i.e. Yamnaya and similar), those samples only got ~13% in the paper (on top of a Minoan-like substrate) and that's part of the reason you need a lot of further northern input since modern mainland Greeks seem to be ~20% Yamnaya-like.
Even more interesting that this little "foreign" admixture came via the North in Greek case while some Aryan Nordic ubermenschen theories claimed that they became "darker" due to Arab admixture comparing ancient Greeks to North Europeans aka the Brad Pitt type. And in Egyptian case the little foreign admixture came via Sub Saharan Africa while for centuries the Black Master Race defenders claimed Egyptians became more "white" due to Persian, Assyrian, Greek and Roman influence. If anything what these results prove is that, there was a rather tight genetic group, a clear tendency with the ancient civilizations. Those bordering the Mediterranean were clearly predominantly Anatolian/Levant Farmer derived and their farmer DNA got actually diluted in later times. And those Civilization in Mesopotamia and South of the Caspian to Harrapa most likely were more Iran_Neo/CHG derived than modern people of the same region. Contrary to what some people assumed of predominantly "Nordic Proto Persians or Medes".
So two of the most ridiculous agendas in this world have been debunked very hard. The Afro_Centric and White Nordic agendas. It is quite funny tbh.
Yes, I agree about "Germanic". What I also had in mind were haplogroups potentially associated with the Germanic migrations and the indications for Italians (vs the Balkans) from the Ralph-Coop paper.
Check the figure I posted too; it's from the same paper's supplement. It models the Greek sample as 77.7% EN and 19.8% Yamnaya while the Tuscan one gets 79.9% EN and 17.9% Yamnaya. In that one, the extra WHG needed for Greeks is 0.4% and 0% for Tuscans. Either way, the differences are overall small but you can see some changing proportions of components based on the model.
As for the increase, it would definitely depend on how steppe-heavy the population was, of course. Based on some calculators I've seen, a 10-30% "early Slavic" input (compared to the Mycenaeans) depending on the region, from the Aegean to Macedonia, would make sense.
I looked at the figure. However, while Haak, Lazaridis, do all sorts of extensive modeling in their supplements, they do that in order to arrive at their conclusions, which is what they put in the paper itself, and which is where you find the graphic in question. It only makes sense, as, in a lot of PCA's, despite the extra WHG which the mainland Greeks have and the Tuscans do not, the Tuscans plot not only west of the Greeks, but slightly north as well.
Btw, the figure they used for that graph is from their test with 3 reference populations. Their addition of Nganasan I posted above seemed to improve the model for Europeans, while the further addition of BedouinB did mostly for Sicilians, Iberians, Maltese and Jews. But the last model again shows Tuscans with slightly more steppe than Greeks (though with a decent chunk of "Bedouin").
That's alright, and yeah, I was joking.Ok. I've been hearing it a lot lately. I apologize if I took it the wrong way.
Also Spanish, French, French_south, Hungarians, Cezchs have Bedouin in that try. Even Norwegians have Bedouin.
When did this Bedouin migration to Norway happen?
Also Spanish, French, French_south, Hungarians, Cezchs have Bedouin in that try. Even Norwegians have Bedouin.
When did this Bedouin migration to Norway happen?
Czech, Norwegians don't have Bedouin admixture, I'm not exactly sure what charts were you seeing. There's 1-3% Bedouin admixture in Slovenia, Hungary vs 20-30% In South Italy and European Jews. That's a small difference.
To put it in terms of the Geneplaza calculator again, my "extra" Iran type ancestry is lower than that of a lot of northern Europeans.
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