Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

If you ever read my posts, surely you knew what happen,
But No, YOU NEVER READ, the only you want us to do is REAPEAT, REPEAT,

your questions are answered many times,
once again, Read the book of Giannopoulos,
and Georgiev about Hellenic language (proto-Hellenic)

Minoan and Minyan world
greece1500bc.jpg



Mycenean world
1200px-Mycenaean_World_en.png




proto Greek world, the Hellenic,

260px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png




and since you never read, I will raise the scale to make it easy to your eyes.


The Minoan eruption was a major catastrophic volcanic eruption that devastated the Aegean island of Thera (now called Santorini) in around 1600 BCE.[1] It destroyed the Minoan settlement at Akrotiri, as well as communities and agricultural areas on nearby islands and the coast of Crete with subsequent earthquakes and tsunamis.[2] With a VEI magnitude between 6 and 7, resulting in an ejection of approximately 60 km3 (14 cu mi) of dense-rock equivalent (DRE),[3][4] the eruption was one of the largest volcanic events on Earth in human history.[5][6][7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption

Now you have your answers,

I have read it, but since was not enough for Lazaridis 2017 than I will wait for more evidence. What you are posting is old and not conclusive. In addition tell Lazaridis to test in Epirus not in Anatolia to find Greeks. LOL


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I have read it, but since was not enough for Lazaridis 2017 than I will wait for more evidence. What you are posting is old and not conclusive. In addition tell Lazaridis to test in Epirus not in Anatolia to find Greeks. LOL


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Offcourse as I said before,
you only post under Agenda.
But thank you, cause you admit that Epirus is archegonos Hellas proto-Greek,
or Better as Aristoteles said Greeks and Selloi (Hellenes)

Beside do not forget, that Greek and Cretan might be from same Linguistic origin. at the Doric dialect called Groussa.
 
The thing is that i am also using evidence, and it's what i have been citing all along. Furthermore, no, i am not certain of the northern route, but it is a matter of weighing information. The reason i am confident in it isn't only due to genetics that seem to favor it, but linguistics and archaeology as well. Some of that information has already been shared in the past in this thread, while other information hasn't. Regardless, as aforementioned a couple of days ago, interdisciplinary analysis is very useful in these kind of questions.


Lazaridis 2017 “Second, is the ‘northern’ ancestry in Mycenaeans due to sporadic infiltration of Greece, or to a rapid migration as in Central Europe? Such a migration would support the idea that proto-Greek speakers formed the southern wing of a steppe intrusion of Indo-European speakers. Yet, the absence of ‘northern’ ancestry in the Bronze Age samples from Pisidia, where Indo-European languages were attested in antiquity, casts doubt on this genetic– linguistic association, with further sampling of ancient Anatolian speakers needed.”

So this according to you means that the Northern model si favored. I guess that my understanding of English is different from yours. Anyway I rest my argument here looking forward for additional research and evidence.



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Offcourse as I said before,
you only post under Agenda.
But thank you, cause you admit that Epirus is archegonos Hellas proto-Greek,
or Better as Aristoteles said Greeks and Selloi (Hellenes)

Beside do not forget, that Greek and Cretan might be from same Linguistic origin. at the Doric dialect called Groussa.

The mountains of Epirus, they surely are the Cradle of Greeks, like Kosovo for Serbs. LOL.
And I have an agenda, I have already disclosed that in the past.

As Angela said: “Albanian northern origin will be used as a stick to beat our greek neighbors, in case Anatolian route prevails”. But you know better what is in game here, don’t you? So your reaction and posts are understood.

How that sound for an agenda?


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The mountains of Epirus, they surely are the Cradle of Greeks, like Kosovo for Serbs. LOL.
And I have an agenda, I have already disclosed that in the past.

As Angela said: “Albanian northern origin will be used as a stick to beat our greek neighbors, in case Anatolian route prevails”. But you know better what is in game here, don’t you? So your reaction and posts are understood.

How that sound for an agenda?


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or the oposite?
 
To my opinion

the much talk about Lazarides discussion is not needed,

the above papper just proved the bellow

Minoan civilization
greece1500bc.jpg



Mycenean civilization

8e0759c1462459a971566d316e730e4d.jpg




Both civilizations maybe are, or share high % of the same genetics population.

So the true questions are the 3 bellow,

1. Did Minoans and Myceneans arrive same time at Aegean pelago

that is basic question, why they develop different cultures? as also at language matters,


2. Was Minoan a IE language?

if Minoan as Myceneanan was an IE language means 2 things,
a. IE either was a Neolithic, or an early agricultural language, and back to C. Renfrew.
b. Minoan-Mycenean language originated at S Caucasus, but passed through all Anatolian IE languages and Hatti language to Aegean.

3. Could Myceneans change language to IE? and not Minoans

That is the other model, the Minoan-Mycenian population spoke an unknown language, which may was or evolute to Minoan and Linear A, but accept or adopt or assimilated by the IE creating the Mycenean Greek and Linear B.
to that model we are quided if we Follow the Paleobalkan languages, and Primitive Greek languages or as known NW dialects, like Epirotan and Makedonian.
and the archaiology as descibed last decade by Giannopoulos.

I am placing a map again

Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png



So the models placed by Jiovalis

0nEoquq.png


q7Srzpc.png


Here is why the Eastern Model may be viable imo:



I think can be answered if you can answer the 3 questions I place above,

1. Did Minoans and Myceneans arrive same time at Aegean pelago

2. Was Minoan a IE language?

3. Could Myceneans change language to IE? and not Minoans,

here I must add 2 maps

1 The Greco-Aryan IE theory model.

greek-prehistory.png




2 the S Caucasus model

7KO7u-WtATQPtdlT2xZMG3R0AeLDhhFqRggw9gp_eoo_2HCsmQ8NXSalgE3DdPAKG5aVno7TdMwx6yRNHFfs9YjVetlbzSzxkzkKMcaWA9xZ0TB5sOdjRt8_bTx5qLvlc1z0fOlypF_5IBKY7erDqpJihT61E6u0bKa8hYfn00s




3, The Anatolian Hypothesis, IE is a Neolithic, Anatolian Farmers language

6aaede588836c7ad1d4e48e24352a5db.jpg





Choose,

Personally, I believe Myceneans were Minoans who got IE

and I think Lazarides papper is obvious from the 2 first maps I copy/paste at the begin of post, and certifies both maps
 
I think can be answered if you can answer the 3 questions I place above,

1. Did Minoans and Myceneans arrive same time at Aegean pelago

2. Was Minoan a IE language?

3. Could Myceneans change language to IE? and not Minoans,


1. No, Minoans were an aboriginal people in Greece who lived in the Crete from at least 3,200 BC but Iranian-related ancestry came to Greece after 2000 BC.

F1.large.jpg


2. No, Minoan was not an IE language but it is possible that after 2000 BC Minoans adopted an IE language.

3. No, Mycenaeans who migrated from ancient Mukania (Mugan plain) in the south of Caucasus were an IE people.
 
Lazaridis 2017 “Second, is the ‘northern’ ancestry in Mycenaeans due to sporadic infiltration of Greece, or to a rapid migration as in Central Europe? Such a migration would support the idea that proto-Greek speakers formed the southern wing of a steppe intrusion of Indo-European speakers. Yet, the absence of ‘northern’ ancestry in the Bronze Age samples from Pisidia, where Indo-European languages were attested in antiquity, casts doubt on this genetic– linguistic association, with further sampling of ancient Anatolian speakers needed.”
So this according to you means that the Northern model si favored. I guess that my understanding of English is different from yours. Anyway I rest my argument here looking forward for additional research and evidence.
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Blevins, if you paid some closer attention to what i am writing you wouldn't have to wait for additional research and evidence. You cited Lazaridis et al.'s (2017) quote that called for additional sampling of ancient Anatolian individuals needed. Yet, in the post at the top of this page i shared a paper that came after the 2017 paper, namely "The First Horse Herders and the Impact of Early Bronze Age Steppe Expansions into Asia" (2018), which included Anatolian samples from many different periods. Specifically, 10 from central Anatolia spanning from the Early Bronze Age (~2200 BCE) to the Iron Age (~600 BCE), and even 2 Anatolian Ottoman (1500 CE) samples for comparison; all newly sequenced individuals. Some relevant quotes, "The PCA (Fig. 2B) indicates that all the Anatolian genome sequences from the Early Bronze Age (~2200 BCE) and Late Bronze Age (~1600 BCE) cluster with a previously sequenced Copper Age (~3900–3700 BCE) individual from Northwestern Anatolia and lie between Anatolian Neolithic (Anatolia_N) samples and CHG samples but not between Anatolia_N and EHG samples.", and, "Our results indicate that the early spread of IE languages into Anatolia was not associated with any large-scale steppe-related migration, as previously suggested (61).". Furthermore, it's not only the lack of steppe ancestry in Anatolia during the period that is contemporary to the arrival of pre-proto-Greeks in the Greek peninsula, but also the aforementioned model of 79% Minoan_Lasithi and 21% Europe_LNBA that shares the most drift with Mycenaeans. In the end, you are free to support any hypothesis you want but available genetic evidence suggests for a northern route to have been more likely (not certain, more likely). But personally i am not resting my view on genetics alone, as aforementioned.
 
Blevins, if you paid some closer attention to what i am writing you wouldn't have to wait for additional research and evidence. You cited Lazaridis et al.'s (2017) quote that called for additional sampling of ancient Anatolian individuals needed. Yet, in the post at the top of this page i shared a paper that came after the 2017 paper, namely "The First Horse Herders and the Impact of Early Bronze Age Steppe Expansions into Asia" (2018), which included Anatolian samples from many different periods. Specifically, 10 from central Anatolia spanning from the Early Bronze Age (~2200 BCE) to the Iron Age (~600 BCE), and even 2 Anatolian Ottoman (1500 CE) samples for comparison; all newly sequenced individuals. Some relevant quotes, "The PCA (Fig. 2B) indicates that all the Anatolian genome sequences from the Early Bronze Age (~2200 BCE) and Late Bronze Age (~1600 BCE) cluster with a previously sequenced Copper Age (~3900–3700 BCE) individual from Northwestern Anatolia and lie between Anatolian Neolithic (Anatolia_N) samples and CHG samples but not between Anatolia_N and EHG samples.", and, "Our results indicate that the early spread of IE languages into Anatolia was not associated with any large-scale steppe-related migration, as previously suggested (61).". Furthermore, it's not only the lack of steppe ancestry in Anatolia during the period that is contemporary to the arrival of pre-proto-Greeks in the Greek peninsula, but also the aforementioned model of 79% Minoan_Lasithi and 21% Europe_LNBA that shares the most drift with Mycenaeans. In the end, you are free to support any hypothesis you want but available genetic evidence suggests for a northern route to have been more likely (not certain, more likely). But personally i am not resting my view on genetics alone, as aforementioned.

Damgaard at al (2018) confirms Lazaridis for the lack of steppe in Anatolia but say nothing about Greece.

While Lazaridis (2017) says “Second, is the ‘northern’ ancestry in Mycenaeans due to sporadic infiltration of Greece, or to a rapid migration as in Central Europe? Such a migration would support the idea that proto-Greek speakers formed the southern wing of a steppe intrusion of Indo-European speakers. Yet, the absence of ‘northern’ ancestry in the Bronze Age samples from Pisidia, where Indo-European languages were attested in antiquity, casts doubt on this genetic– linguistic association, with further sampling of ancient Anatolian speakers needed.”

Mathieson at al (2018) adds “While we find sporadic steppe-related ancestry in Balkan Copper and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is rare until the late Bronze Age.”

As I said, I guess my comprehension of English is different from yours.
In addition, you might suggest Lazaridis to conclude if all evidence is available now, or you can conclude yourself in a research paper.
Be the one to solve Lazaridis dilemma.


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Last edited:
The "casts doubt on this genetic–linguistic association" pertains more to the broader IE linguistic family and whether we should be associating "steppe" ancestry with IE linguistic expansion in general, than to the Greek branch itself. It refers to the Anatolian IE branch (different from Greek) and whether it diverged south of the steppe (Anatolia and/or Transcaucasia) which would explain the lack of steppe ancestry, or it didn't. That's where Reich's (an author of the 2017 paper) excerpt provided by Jovialis comes and elaborates on the aforementioned rationale.

iG2UgcM.jpg


The lack of steppe ancestry in Anatolia discussed by the Lazaridis et al. (2017) paper suggests this as a possibility, and the Damgaard et al. (2018) that came later essentially enforces this with additional evidence (Hittites as well). Furthermore, as has been repeated multiple times already, that's also one of the reasons that the northern migrational route of the pre-proto-Greeks seems more likely, because if they had migrated through Anatolia, you would expect to find a trace associated with their notable steppe ancestry. The steppe ancestry of the Mycenaeans obviously came from somewhere and differentiated them from pre-Greek populations such as the related Minoans, and that somewhere appears to be the north more so than the east, regardless of sporadic or not migration. Indeed, more analysis is required for identifying that proximal (surrogate) source, as mentioned in that other quote i shared a couple of days ago, "
However, we do notice that the model 79%Minoan_Lasithi+21%Europe_LNBA tends to share more drift with Mycenaeans (at the |Z|>2 level). Europe_LNBA is a diverse group of steppe-admixed Late Neolithic/Bronze Age individuals from mainland Europe, and we think that the further study of areas to the north of Greece might identify a surrogate for this admixture event – if, indeed, the Minoan_Lasithi+Europe_LNBA model represents the true history.".
 
The mountains of Epirus, they surely are the Cradle of Greeks, like Kosovo for Serbs. LOL.
And I have an agenda, I have already disclosed that in the past.

As Angela said: “Albanian northern origin will be used as a stick to beat our greek neighbors, in case Anatolian route prevails”. But you know better what is in game here, don’t you? So your reaction and posts are understood.

How that sound for an agenda?


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Please list the number of the post where I said that.
 
Mathieson at al (2018) adds “While we find sporadic steppe-related ancestry in Balkan Copper and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is rare until the late Bronze Age.”
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Here is Mathieson et al.'s (2018) context for that statement, "In two directly dated individuals from southeastern Europe, one (ANI163) from the Varna I cemetery dated to 4711-4550 BCE and one (I2181) from nearby Smyadovo dated to 4550-4450 BCE, we find far earlier evidence of steppe-related ancestry (Figure 1B,D). These findings push back the first evidence of steppe-related ancestry this far West in Europe by almost 2,000 years, but it was sporadic as other Copper Age (~5000-4000 BCE) individuals from the Balkans have no evidence of it. Bronze Age (~3400-1100 BCE) individuals do have steppe-related ancestry (we estimate 30%; CI: 26-35%), with the highest proportions in the four latest Balkan Bronze Age individuals in our data (later than ~1700 BCE) and the least in earlier Bronze Age individuals (3400-2500 BCE; Figure 1D).". If anything, all these can be used as additional evidence to corroborate the northern route.
 
Blevins, if you paid some closer attention to what i am writing you wouldn't have to wait for additional research and evidence. You cited Lazaridis et al.'s (2017) quote that called for additional sampling of ancient Anatolian individuals needed. Yet, in the post at the top of this page i shared a paper that came after the 2017 paper, namely "The First Horse Herders and the Impact of Early Bronze Age Steppe Expansions into Asia" (2018), which included Anatolian samples from many different periods. Specifically, 10 from central Anatolia spanning from the Early Bronze Age (~2200 BCE) to the Iron Age (~600 BCE), and even 2 Anatolian Ottoman (1500 CE) samples for comparison; all newly sequenced individuals. Some relevant quotes, "The PCA (Fig. 2B) indicates that all the Anatolian genome sequences from the Early Bronze Age (~2200 BCE) and Late Bronze Age (~1600 BCE) cluster with a previously sequenced Copper Age (~3900–3700 BCE) individual from Northwestern Anatolia and lie between Anatolian Neolithic (Anatolia_N) samples and CHG samples but not between Anatolia_N and EHG samples.", and, "Our results indicate that the early spread of IE languages into Anatolia was not associated with any large-scale steppe-related migration, as previously suggested (61).". Furthermore, it's not only the lack of steppe ancestry in Anatolia during the period that is contemporary to the arrival of pre-proto-Greeks in the Greek peninsula, but also the aforementioned model of 79% Minoan_Lasithi and 21% Europe_LNBA that shares the most drift with Mycenaeans. In the end, you are free to support any hypothesis you want but available genetic evidence suggests for a northern route to have been more likely (not certain, more likely). But personally i am not resting my view on genetics alone, as aforementioned.

The earliest known Indo-Europeans were those who lived in Anatolia, like Hittites and Luwians, there is no evidence which shows those who lived in Balkan and other lands in the north of Greece were Indo-Europeans in the Bronze Age, ignore this steppe theory, Indians have also steppe ancestry but as dr. Niraj Rai says there was no massive migration from the Steppe to Bronze Age India, genetic studies have also proved that there were no massive migration from the Steppe to Anatolia, Greece, Iran and South Italy.
 
The mountains of Epirus, they surely are the Cradle of Greeks, like Kosovo for Serbs. LOL.
And I have an agenda, I have already disclosed that in the past.

As Angela said: “Albanian northern origin will be used as a stick to beat our greek neighbors, in case Anatolian route prevails”. But you know better what is in game here, don’t you? So your reaction and posts are understood.

How that sound for an agenda?


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This is what I actually said:
Who cares, other than as a matter of intellectual interest, for God's sake, other than the Albanians, who apparently like to think that would make them more "European" than the Greeks. Just another stick to beat the Greeks over the head with, when Albanians are almost indistinguishable from Northern Greeks. (That includes you, Ailchu.)

How dare you put quotation marks around your own interpretation of my words? Don't ever do it again. If you're going to quote me QUOTE ME.
 
This is what I actually said:
Who cares, other than as a matter of intellectual interest, for God's sake, other than the Albanians, who apparently like to think that would make them more "European" than the Greeks. Just another stick to beat the Greeks over the head with, when Albanians are almost indistinguishable from Northern Greeks. (That includes you, Ailchu.)

How dare you put quotation marks around your own interpretation of my words? Don't ever do it again. If you're going to quote me QUOTE ME.

Quotes are to long so I used a paraphrase, I guess I should have followed APA format, but I did not know that was required in this thread.

Did I get the meaning correctly or you mean something else?


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Quotes are to long so I used a paraphrase, I guess I should have followed APA format, but I did not know that was required in this thread.

Did I get the meaning correctly or you mean something else?


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Your interpretation makes it sound as if I think Albanians are more "northern" than Greeks, when actually they are NOT more "northern" than Greeks. They're only more "Northern" than "SOME" Greeks, given the variation in Greeks and the fact that Albanians are very much like Thessalians, and nestle right within the larger scope of Greek variation.

Plus, I wasn't talking about "Northern" but about European.

Thirdly whether steppe admixed people arrived from the east or from the more northern Balkans is irrelevant as to whether they are just as "European".

So, yes, in paraphrasing, you did distort what I said.

However, I do indeed believe there is an agenda held by some Albanians specifically to try to show that Greeks have MORE or DIFFERENT Anatolian ancestry or Iran Neo Ancestry than do Albanians, making Albanians more "European" than they are. I've seen it for twelve years, unfortunately.
 
Your interpretation makes it sound as if I think Albanians are more "northern" than Greeks, when actually they are NOT more "northern" than Greeks. They're only more "Northern" than "SOME" Greeks, given the variation in Greeks and the fact that Albanians are very much like Thessalians, and nestle right within the larger scope of Greek variation.

Plus, I wasn't talking about "Northern" but about European.

Thirdly whether steppe admixed people arrived from the east or from the more northern Balkans is irrelevant as to whether they are just as "European".

So, yes, in paraphrasing, you did distort what I said.

However, I do indeed believe there is an agenda held by some Albanians specifically to try to show that Greeks have MORE or DIFFERENT Anatolian ancestry or Iran Neo Ancestry than do Albanians, making Albanians more "European" than they are. I've seen it for twelve years, unfortunately.

So let me fix it:

Albanians, who apparently like to think that the eastern model would make them more "European" than the Greeks, another stick to beat the Greeks over the head with, when Albanians are almost indistinguishable from Northern Greeks.

I guess, it is worst than I remembered. Also the “Europeaness” of the Greeks is in play under Albanian Agenda. LOL.


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