Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Bergin said:
Is there any chance we can ask for more quantitative data for Figure 2 (numeric instead of color coding)?
What I mean is: is anyone here in contact with one of the authors, or got access to some conference presentation?
Thanks
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If you mean that last Haak graphic, I've posted it before:

Norway - 30, 16, 54
Lithuania - 18, 30, 52
Estonia - 12, 37, 51
Iceland - 32, 19, 49
Scotland - 28, 23, 49
Czech - 35, 16, 49
Belarus - 25, 28, 47
Hungary - 39, 16, 45
Ukraine - 28, 27, 44
England - 44, 14, 42
Orkney - 34, 25, 41
South French - 57, 4, 39
Croatia - 44, 17, 37
French - 51, 12, 37
North Spanish - 59, 10, 31
Bulgaria - 55, 14, 31
Tuscany - 72, 0, 28
Basque - 54, 19, 27
Bergamo - 63, 13, 24
Spain - 78, 0, 22
Greece - 66, 14, 20
Albania - 65, 18, 17
Sardinia - 88, 7, 5

To get the entire "Southern" component you'd have to take 40% of the last number and add it to the first number.

Later papers have put it higher.

This is only part of the story. You have to read the entire supplement.
You're welcome.
 
Angela said:
If you mean that last Haak graphic, I've posted it before:

Norway - 30, 16, 54
Lithuania - 18, 30, 52
Estonia - 12, 37, 51
Iceland - 32, 19, 49
Scotland - 28, 23, 49
Czech - 35, 16, 49
Belarus - 25, 28, 47
Hungary - 39, 16, 45
Ukraine - 28, 27, 44
England - 44, 14, 42
Orkney - 34, 25, 41
South French - 57, 4, 39
Croatia - 44, 17, 37
French - 51, 12, 37
North Spanish - 59, 10, 31
Bulgaria - 55, 14, 31
Tuscany - 72, 0, 28
Basque - 54, 19, 27
Bergamo - 63, 13, 24
Spain - 78, 0, 22
Greece - 66, 14, 20
Albania - 65, 18, 17
Sardinia - 88, 7, 5

To get the entire "Southern" component you'd have to take 40% of the last number and add it to the first number.

This is only part of the story. You have to read the entire supplement.
You're welcome.
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Thanks Angela, but also sorry for the confusion:
I meant the Lazaridis paper .

Nevertheless, your info is pretty useful now that I see it.
 
Bergin said:
Thanks Angela, but also sorry for the confusion:
I meant the Lazaridis paper .

Nevertheless, your info is pretty useful now that I see it.
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You're going to have to be more specific. If you mean this, it's based on FST, which is a statistical measure of overall genetic relatedness. It has its pluses and minuses, just like every measure. To the best of my recollection the figures are in the Supplement.

If you're referring to the odd result for the Southern Italians, I believe I posted upthread that Lazaridis was questioned about it at the talk he gave with Reich and Krause, and he said that the specific Southern Italian sample on that chip is probably extremely drifted away from everyone except Sicilians. I'm guessing that means they used some extremely isolated group tested as part of some study into recessive disease genes, but that's just a guess.

nature23310-f2.jpg
 
Angela said:
You're going to have to be more specific. If you mean this, it's based on FST, which is a statistical measure of overall genetic relatedness. It has its pluses and minuses, just like every measure. To the best of my recollection the figures are in the Supplement.

If you're referring to the odd result for the Southern Italians, I believe I posted upthread that Lazaridis was questioned about it at the talk he gave with Reich and Krause, and he said that the specific Southern Italian sample on that chip is probably extremely drifted away from everyone except Sicilians. I'm guessing that means they used some extremely isolated group tested as part of some study into recessive disease genes, but that's just a guess.

nature23310-f2.jpg
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Yes, this is it. Thanks for the explanation.
It just surprises me that the northern italian dot (maybe Bergamo) has very similar tendencies with sicily. Was it expected?
 
Bergin said:
Yes, this is it. Thanks for the explanation.
It just surprises me that the northern italian dot (maybe Bergamo) has very similar tendencies with sicily. Was it expected?
Click to expand...

This is fst to Mycenaeans or Minoans, not to each other.

Still, it's true that Northern Italians are closer in terms of fst to certain other ethnicities than to Sicilians.

Just as an example, I'm about 1/2 northern and 1/2Tuscan, or 3/4 Northern, 1/4 Tuscan depending on how you define certain groups. I'm closer genetically to certain Balkan groups than I am to Sicilians. That would be even more the case for someone who is 100% from Bergamo, for example.

" The genetic distance between Southern and Northern Italians (Fst=0.0013) is comparable to that between individuals living in different political units (ie, Iberians-Romanians Fst=0.0011; British-French Fst=0.0007), and, interestingly, in >50% of all the possible pairwise comparisons within Europe."

All of this can be drastically over-interpreted of course. The fst between all European populations is very close.
 
Angela said:
This is fst to Mycenaeans or Minoans, not to each other.

Still, it's true that Northern Italians are closer in terms of fst to certain other ethnicities than to Sicilians.

Just as an example, I'm about 1/2 northern and 1/2Tuscan, or 3/4 Northern, 1/4 Tuscan depending on how you define certain groups. I'm closer genetically to certain Balkan groups than I am to Sicilians. That would be even more the case for someone who is 100% from Bergamo, for example.

"The genetic distance between Southern and Northern Italians (Fst=0.0013) is comparable to that between individuals living in different political units (ie, Iberians-Romanians Fst=0.0011; British-French Fst=0.0007), and, interestingly, in >50% of all the possible pairwise comparisons within Europe."

All of this can be drastically over-interpreted of course. The fst between all European populations is very close.
Click to expand...

Nicely explained! I think I got it.
 
davef said:
"I actually even made reference to a recent paper, Sarno et al (2017) which shows some of the same stuff (at least as I interpret it) that I've seen in all sorts of analyses, amateur and peer-reviewed, in the past."

Can you post what you found in that study?

And what does your username mean, exactly? Is it some sort of acronym? Just curious
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I wonder why you got a negative vote for that!!!!!!
 
Angela said:
You're going to have to be more specific. If you mean this, it's based on FST, which is a statistical measure of overall genetic relatedness. It has its pluses and minuses, just like every measure. To the best of my recollection the figures are in the Supplement.

If you're referring to the odd result for the Southern Italians, I believe I posted upthread that Lazaridis was questioned about it at the talk he gave with Reich and Krause, and he said that the specific Southern Italian sample on that chip is probably extremely drifted away from everyone except Sicilians. I'm guessing that means they used some extremely isolated group tested as part of some study into recessive disease genes, but that's just a guess.

nature23310-f2.jpg
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Wait, how can someone from Britain score lower than those Italians? I can't imagine someone from there being more like the Mycenaeans, but then again I may not fully understand how this tool works.

This question concerns Mycenaeans, so hopefully I'm not bending rules this time ;)
 
It's only natural for Italians to cluster with the inhabitants of Greece, which is right next to it, rather than for Brits, that live far away from Greece and received more invasions from the steppe, what did you expect?
 
Pygmalion said:
It's only natural for Italians to cluster with the inhabitants of Greece, which is right next to it, rather than for Brits, that live far away from Greece and received more invasions from the steppe, what did you expect?
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My thoughts exactly.

i doubt it means the brits for example are "more like" the Mycenaeans. I think my understanding of what fst is trying to measure is foggy
 
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davef said:
Wait, how can someone from Britain score lower than those Italians? I can't imagine someone from there being more like the Mycenaeans, but then again I may not fully understand how this tool works.
This question concerns Mycenaeans, so hopefully I'm not bending rules this time ;)
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"How can someone from Britain score lower?"

.............

The "South Italian" sample is genetically drifted, which is why it looks like that. This was explained in the Planck-Harvard Center video lecture.


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ard-Center-for-Study-of-Ancient-Mediterranean

Angela mentioned this, in your reply to her quote:

Angela said:
You're going to have to be more specific. If you mean this, it's based on FST, which is a statistical measure of overall genetic relatedness. It has its pluses and minuses, just like every measure. To the best of my recollection the figures are in the Supplement.
If you're referring to the odd result for the Southern Italians, I believe I posted upthread that Lazaridis was questioned about it at the talk he gave with Reich and Krause, and he said that the specific Southern Italian sample on that chip is probably extremely drifted away from everyone except Sicilians. I'm guessing that means they used some extremely isolated group tested as part of some study into recessive disease genes, but that's just a guess.

nature23310-f2.jpg
Click to expand...

-Sicilians share the greatest genetic affinity to the Mycenaeans.

-The South Italian sample, is a genetically drifted and isolated.
 
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Actually a lower score means closer according to fst. Angela said it has its pluses and minuses so it might be a bit misleading in the case of these southern Italians, though again I may have to find time later to boost my understanding of this measure.
 
davef said:
Actually a lower score means closer according to fst.
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You're right about that.

In any case, about the south Italian sample: @ 1: 29 :09 in the video is when someone brings up the question about the south Italian sample, and then Lazaridis addresses it. He said that it was because of genetic drift.
 
Jovialis said:
You're right about that.

In any case, about the south Italian sample: @ 1: 29 :09 in the video is when someone brings up the question about the south Italian sample, and then Lazaridis addresses it.
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Yes, that's what I was talking about. I don't know why people haven't listened to it if they have questions. That sample is apparently like the ones in the paper about those small, weird, genetic isolates in far northeastern Italy.

That's why they should weed out samples like this.

It's a lesson in why you have to examine the data with all the statistical tools at your disposal, not just one. From what I remember, Lazaridis sort of laughed and said no, there isn't anything weird about Southern Italians. :)

Too bad for Sikeliot, so many of his t-roll theories about Calabrians are based on this one sample.
 
I changed my mind (if you care about my glorious opinion), I now don't think proto-Mycenaeans arrived from Caucasus, yes it is possible like the paper said, but that would require Greece to have a population like Anatolia Neolithic, think about this, if increased Caucasus ancestry from north western Anatolia in the period 4000BC ---> 3500BC is documented (Anatolia Chalcolithic), you would have to assume that it stopped there and didn't reach mainland Greece until a millennium later, I think that's very unlikely.

I know I used the Middle Bronze Age destruction as proof of a migration from Caucasus, but that only shows sites of destruction connecting Caucasus and the Balkans, we don't know the direction or the chronology of such destroyed sites, so it could very well have been from the Balkans to Caucasus.
 
You’re blissfully ignorant
These Bulgarian Yamnaya are I2a2a1, first found in neolithic balkans
Therefore they represent Balkan elites breeding with steppe women
 
Dinaric Superman said:
You’re blissfully ignorant
These Bulgarian Yamnaya are I2a2a1, first found in neolithic balkans
Therefore they represent Balkan elites breeding with steppe women
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Or, it represents the documented movement of people from "Old Europe" east onto the steppe, and perhaps a return with men who carried a lot more steppe.

Watch it with the insults, or there will be consequences.
 
Dinaric Superman said:
You’re blissfully ignorant
These Bulgarian Yamnaya are I2a2a1, first found in neolithic balkans
Therefore they represent Balkan elites breeding with steppe women
Click to expand...

Yes, but Y-I2a2a1 has be found too in 6000/5000 BC Latvia and in 5500/4800 BC Mariupol Ukraina so???
 
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