R1b DF27 in Iberia

[Angela]

See:
Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x

"Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage and, in particular, to ascertain the time and place where it originated, as well as its subsequent dynamics. We found that R1b-DF27 is present in frequencies ~40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques, but it drops quickly to 6–20% in France. Overall, the age of R1b-DF27 is estimated at ~4,200 years ago, at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when the Y chromosome landscape of W Europe was thoroughly remodeled. In spite of its high frequency in Basques, Y-STR internal diversity of R1b-DF27 is lower there, and results in more recent age estimates; NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27. Subhaplogroup frequencies within R1b-DF27 are geographically structured, and show domains that are reminiscent of the pre-Roman Celtic/Iberian division, or of the medieval Christian kingdoms."

[Angela]

PCA of subhaplogroup frequencies:

[Tomenable]

If North-Eastern Iberia is where DF27 originated, then how did it find its way to places such as Germany, Poland or Lithuania? One of ancient Bell Beaker men from Eastern Germany - I0806 (QLB28) - was DF27.

I'm also DF27.

Historically there were more expansions from East-Central Europe to Iberia than the other way around.

[Angela]

Could someone get a better graphic of this map up? I think it's pretty interesting.

[Tomenable]

I'm interested mainly in Z2552 (and downstream) but they don't have maps for this branch:

https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf

Z195 is the main branch in Iberia and it probably originated in situ, but not DF27 as a whole.

[Pax Augusta]

Why did they use only Tuscans for this study? Wasn't better to use also North Italians? If Tuscans have 6% of R1b-DF27, Northwestern Italians could have even more.

49% in Iberians does it mean that Iberians have had a very strong founder effect?

"DF27 was first discovered by citizen scientists14 and, although among the burgeoning amateur genetic genealogy it is known to be frequent in Iberian populations and their overseas offshoots, few academic publications have been devoted to it. It was found in the 1000 Genome Project populations at a frequency of 49% in Iberians, 6% in Tuscans, 7% in British, and it was absent elsewhere except for admixed populations in the Americas: Colombia (40%), Puerto Rico (36%), Mexico (10%), Perú (8%), African-Americans (4%) and Afro-Caribbeans (2%)14, 15."

[Pax Augusta]

Could someone get a better graphic of this map up? I think it's pretty interesting.

You can enlarge the pics.

[Angela]

Why did they use only Tuscans for this study? Wasn't better to use also North Italians? If Tuscans have 6% of R1b-DF27, Northwestern Italians could have even more.
49% in Iberians does it mean that Iberians have had a very strong founder effect?
"DF27 was first discovered by citizen scientists14 and, although among the burgeoning amateur genetic genealogy it is known to be frequent in Iberian populations and their overseas offshoots, few academic publications have been devoted to it. It was found in the 1000 Genome Project populations at a frequency of 49% in Iberians, 6% in Tuscans, 7% in British, and it was absent elsewhere except for admixed populations in the Americas: Colombia (40%), Puerto Rico (36%), Mexico (10%), Perú (8%), African-Americans (4%) and Afro-Caribbeans (2%)14, 15."

I haven't drilled into the supporting documentation yet, but if they didn't look at Northern Italians, especially Northwestern Italians, that was a very bad oversight. I agree, there's probably more of it there.

It does look very much like founder effect.

Are we looking at Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age?

This is from Bell Beaker Blogger:


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6Y7NA0Eff9...ures01_big.jpg

[berun]

If North-Eastern Iberia is where DF27 originated, then how did it find its way to places such as Germany, Poland or Lithuania? One of ancient Bell Beaker men from Eastern Germany - I0806 (QLB28) - was DF27.

I'm also DF27.

Historically there were more expansions from East-Central Europe to Iberia than the other way around.

Bell Beakers. The number of migrations is not a variable with that, moreover when the TMCRA is BB also.

[Parafarne]

Hey TOMENABLE in my view DF27 started as a few small tribes in celtic core area of Eastern France then overwhelming majority of which settled Iberia creating a founder effect there and the few remaining tribes in France expanded to other areas in central europe.So outside Iberia DF27 shows french settlement except very small iberian one.

[Parafarne]

Could someone please give the percentages for southern portugal and andalusia, thanks in advance ; )

[St. Pierre]

My maternal grandfather was R1b-DF27-S225, his family name was changed by the family/priests to Raymond in Canada to honor the immigrant ancestor Romain de Faugas but in France the family name was de Faugas and the family was from Langon in SW France.

[AdeoF]

If North-Eastern Iberia is where DF27 originated, then how did it find its way to places such as Germany, Poland or Lithuania? One of ancient Bell Beaker men from Eastern Germany - I0806 (QLB28) - was DF27.

I'm also DF27.

Historically there were more expansions from East-Central Europe to Iberia than the other way around.

I am of Spanish admixture and im not DF27 but R-L21 which is more in Celtic Europe. Im still surprised that you are DF27 and from Poland (which is a first for me). However it does show in the migration that DF27 did from central Europe so it can be that. Are you from North Poland by any chance???

[stibo]

In case it is of use to anybody: I am DF27 - Z198. My family has traced our earliest known paternal ancestor to Île de Ré in West-Central France.

[Olympus Mons]

Yet ...
it does make little sense that Portugal has the Highest M269 without P312 or DF27...
and if TMRC for DF27 as stated in the study is practically the same as its son Z195 and Portugal has "no" Z195, unlike the rest of iberia... it makes a strange migration pattern from East to West, does it not?

[I1a3_Young]

Why does the M147 branch increase percentage in Lincolnshire?

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[cynthiag]

I see nothing in Angela's graphic about the ZZ12_1 branch of DF27, only the Z195 branch and its sub-branches. Is that because there is little known about ZZ12_1?

Thanks

[razyn]

I see nothing in Angela's graphic about the ZZ12_1 branch of DF27, only the Z195 branch and its sub-branches. Is that because there is little known about ZZ12_1?

Thanks

Angela's graphic is from the paper cited in the first post. That paper used a 2012 version of the ISOGG tree. In 2012 DF27 itself was newly identified, and ZZ12 was yet to be discovered (although many Z195- SNPs were known downstream of DF27).

[JuanDT]

Hello All,

I am brand new to this forum, and need help from those of you who are more experienced.

I recently completed testing and found that I am Y-DNA haplogroup RP312 DF27. I want to delve deeper and believe it does go much deeper, through better testing. But what more can I expect to find? How deep can one go?

Thank you in advance.

Juan

[JuanDT]

Hey All,

Can someone help me understand the major subclades of of DF27, please? I still have to complete deeper testing (it is a nightmare to do this from South Africa due to government regulations!!), and I am in the meantime trying to study and understand the overall structure of DF27.

From secondary research I understand (and I state this qualified since I am very new to this field) that DF27 originated in what is today North-Eastern Spain and South-Western France. So, at a macro level DF27 originated from Celtic tribes near today's Spain (Gallaeci/Galli/Celtiberi) and France (Pyrinees Aquitaine Gauls).

My ancestors fled France (Lille) in the late 1600's as protestants - took a ship to South Africa - where I live today. What I know about my forebears end in the 1690's - the rest is just speculation - and will probably stay that way.

Obviously what is of immense interest to me is the fact that my MtDNA is U5b2b3, which I also believe originates from Iberia. And....my mother and father shares the same surname....don't judge guys

In my simplified universe I am piecing together that both my paternal and maternal line haplogroups originated in today's Spain/France.

My maternal line seems has been living in Europe for a very long time, and paternal line moved recently (circa 4500 years ago) as Celts from Northern Europe to the South West of Europe where the DF27 mutation originated.

So much to understand!!!

Thanks so much in advance.

J

[Duarte]

Big Y 700 complete. FTDNA's results displayed today:

R1b > M269 > L23 > L51 > P310 > L151 > P312 > DF27 > ZZ12 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > BY2285 > BY25634 > FGC35133

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ut-mtDNA-is-B2

Interesting. It looks like I'm a unique case in the R1b-DF27 "Y"subclade and the FTDNA Project DF27 admins will create a new subclade below the FGC35133 that will include me and also include a man from Spain (this new subclade will be the R1b-Y54249):




Interesting also that my terminal mtDNA sequenced and confirmed (not predicted, but confirmed) by FTDNA (mtDNA Full Sequence) is B2, the same rating I received on the Y-Full mitochondrial Haplotree (about 17,000 ybp). Neither FTDNA nor Y-Full getting to put me in an existing mitochondrial subclade below B2. In this case my terminal mitochondrial haplogroup is the same as the founding populations of America that were in Asia and also in a glacial refuge in Beringia (between Siberia and Alaska):





When it comes of the sequencing of the haplogroups "Y" and "mt", I'm a very special case. LOL. :)

[Carlos]

^^

Congratulations!!! I could finally find out that I had received it, they must be working hard on it. I'm alone with a hollander.

[Duarte]

^^

Congratulations!!! I could finally find out that I had received it, they must be working hard on it. I'm alone with a hollander.

^^ Thank you very much dear friend Carlos. We are both alone with a strange man in a “block” of the “Y” haplotree. LOL. At least the guy that stay with me speaks Spanish and I understand and speak Spanish. The guy that stay with you speaks Dutch. I don't know if this would be a problem to you, but I would have a hard time communicating in Dutch if he doesn't speak anything of English. LOL. I hope they will continue to work hard to get our haplotree position as accurate as possible. A big hug dear Carlos. :)


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[Carlos]

^^ Thank you very much dear friend Carlos. We are both alone with a strange man in a “block” of the “Y” haplotree. LOL. At least the guy that stay with me speaks Spanish and I understand and speak Spanish. The guy that stay with you speaks Dutch. I don't know if this would be a problem to you, but I would have a hard time communicating in Dutch if he doesn't speak anything of English. LOL. I hope they will continue to work hard to get our haplotree position as accurate as possible. A big hug dear Carlos. :)


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I don't know who it can be, I don't even know his name. We travel in the same car, it's just him and me. He wears a hat that covers his face, he still hasn't raised his head since I entered the car, I only see the reflection of my face in the glass when we pass through a tunnel. The train has not stopped at any station, just then I realize that I do not know the destination of that trip, then the Dutchman raises his head and I can see his face under the wide-brimmed hat, then the train enters another tunnel .

[Duarte]

I don't know who it can be, I don't even know his name. We travel in the same car, it's just him and me. He wears a hat that covers his face, he still hasn't raised his head since I entered the car, I only see the reflection of my face in the glass when we pass through a tunnel. The train has not stopped at any station, just then I realize that I do not know the destination of that trip, then the Dutchman raises his head and I can see his face under the wide-brimmed hat, then the train enters another tunnel .

You are a poet. Beautiful and well crafted words. Congratulations. Your words refer me to a magnificent images of an European art film. :)



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