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Thread: R1b DF27 in Iberia

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    You are a poet. Beautiful and well crafted words. Congratulations. Your words refer me to a magnificent images of an European art film. :)

    Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk

    Thank you. In this ruthless world, romanticism should be recovered; although we live trapped in these last centuries that must be the most tasteless in the history of mankind because having everything goes away time and life without having done enough. Look how the world is hating each other, conflicts everywhere, it seems that they do not direct us humans.


    In another order of things, what have you found out about your new nomenclature?

  2. #27
    Regular Member Duarte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Thank you. In this ruthless world, romanticism should be recovered; although we live trapped in these last centuries that must be the most tasteless in the history of mankind because having everything goes away time and life without having done enough. Look how the world is hating each other, conflicts everywhere, it seems that they do not direct us humans.


    In another order of things, what have you found out about your new nomenclature?
    I still don't know much. My data is still being processed on Y-Full. For now Y-Full has provisionally provided me (I received an email now) with a subclade identical to that of FTDNA. I'll wait for the processing to finish to know who will be with me on Y-Full “Y” Haplotree and what will be the definitive nomeclature of my subclade there.



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  3. #28
    Regular Member Duarte's Avatar
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    In both, Big Y and Yfull, I form a terminal clade of haplogroup R1b-DF27 with a Cordoba Spanish: R-FGC35133.


    According to a message sent by the FTDNA Project Administrator DF27, in a few days he would reposition me, putting us together in a new subclade: R-Y54249. See message below:


    "Duarte,

    Project R DF27 and Subclades. R1b-DF27 Subclades Project: DF27+ ZZ12+ Z195+ Z198+ Z209+

    Congrats on the new results. I've taken a quick peek at your private mutations and one of the males who was already on the FGC35133 branch. You and he match with at least one private mutation, meaning that you and he will form a NEW downstream branch:

    BY25634>FGC35133>Y54249

    (I will get you moved in the next few days)

    This male is only sitting at Y500 and would likely share some more private mutations with you found in the new Y700 region. In fact, you appear to be the ONLY male in this entire branch of the DF27 tree with new Y700 results compared to the older version."


    However, this has not been done to date by the FTDNA, but Yfull has already advanced the FTDNA and has grouped us into a new subclade containing the SNP FGC35133: R-Y45921 (Y45921 * Y53021 * Y54249 Y55210 * Y56488 * Y111390 * FGC35133).


    It is a young clade, that appears to have emerged at 680 BCE (TMRCA 2700 ybp)


    Below are illustrative images:





    Last edited by Duarte; 27-12-19 at 20:50.

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    Hello I have not posted on this site in awhile my apologies! I am R1b1a1a2a1a2 R-P312 subclade of R-M269. My question is if Z195 which I have tested positive for is a subclade of DF27, but it does not show on my FTDNA as being tested for how can you have a subclade of something that is not there??? I have tested negative for DF103, DF110, DF17, DF19, DF21, DF41, DF49, DF63, DF81, DF88, DF95, and DF99. It looks like I skipped DF27 and went right to Z195> SRY2627 (M167). I read an article published in Aug 2017 that says that Z195 seem to have appeared simultaneously within DF27. Confused a need a better understanding of how all this ties together. Thanks

  5. #30
    Regular Member Duarte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank56 View Post
    Hello I have not posted on this site in awhile my apologies! I am R1b1a1a2a1a2 R-P312 subclade of R-M269. My question is if Z195 which I have tested positive for is a subclade of DF27, but it does not show on my FTDNA as being tested for how can you have a subclade of something that is not there??? I have tested negative for DF103, DF110, DF17, DF19, DF21, DF41, DF49, DF63, DF81, DF88, DF95, and DF99. It looks like I skipped DF27 and went right to Z195> SRY2627 (M167). I read an article published in Aug 2017 that says that Z195 seem to have appeared simultaneously within DF27. Confused a need a better understanding of how all this ties together. Thanks
    Hello Frank,

    I don't know if you did the FTDNA yDNA Big Y 700 test or if you did the tests in separate packages to test each SNP individually. If you did the Big Y 700, and the SNP DF27 has not been tested, it is because they assumed that you are DF27 +, since the test was positive for the SNPs Z195+ and M167+, that is downstream of DF27 +. Remember that the results of the Big Y 700 are time consuming because before the results are released, they are rigorously analyzed by a team of genealogists. Only the SNP detection process is automated. The rest is done manually by a team of genealogists. I suggest that you join the FTDNA Project R-DF27 and Subclades and direct this question to the Project Administrator, Lucas McCaw, who is very diligent and respectful: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../activity-feed



    Cheers :)

  6. #31
    Regular Member Duarte's Avatar
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    I think FTDNA surname projects are really cool. But for me, unfortunately, it doesn't work very well. These are some of my matches with distance 0 (zero).






    My True Ancestry R-DF27 Royal matches



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    In that 2017 nature article entitled "Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of IberianY-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ", the authors affirm that NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27 but perhaps new studies have updated this result. Can you clarify this question? Thank you.

  8. #33
    Regular Member Duarte's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    40% of Spanish and Portuguese men descend from a common ancestor of 4,500 years ago

    This study has been based on the DNA of almost 3,000 men from the Iberian Peninsula and France.

    A single chromosome, the Y, makes men men. And that, from the evolutionary point of view, facilitates the analysis of the different variants, their origin, their geographical distribution and even their movements throughout history. Well, taking advantage of this fact, a group of researchers has analyzed a specific variant, R1b-DF27 of the Y chromosome, very abundant in the peninsula, to better understand our population evolution.


    By analyzing the DNA of almost 3,000 men from the Iberian Peninsula and France , the scientific team made up of researchers from the Institut de Biologia Evolutiva (IBE, UPF-CSIC), a joint center of the Pompeu Fabra University (UPF) and the CSIC, and of the University of the Basque Country (UPV / EHUS) has verified that this variant is present in 40% of Iberian men and up to 70% of men in the Basque Country. However, after the Pyrenees, only 10% of men carry the R1b-DF27 variant of the Y chromosome.


    As Francesc Calafell, study leader and professor at the Department of Experimental and Health Sciences at Pompeu Fabra University explains, “ the evolutionary history of human Y chromosomes appears to have occurred in bursts , with increases in the frequency of certain variants a root of cultural changes or technological innovations ”.


    In the case of the R1b-DF27 variant, the authors assure that it originated between 4,000 and 4,500 years ago, and it most likely appeared in the northeast of the peninsula.. "Despite its current high frequency in the Basque Country, internal measures of diversity and estimates of seniority are lower in Basques than in any other population, which rules out this region as the point of origin of the variant", Calafell comments. A local origin in Iberia would be the most plausible hypothesis, since "it shows the highest estimates of diversity and age for R1b-DF27." These observations appear to coincide with the east-west movement that occurred in Iberia in the Bronze Age, when non-Indo-European Iberian peoples settled on the Mediterranean coast and inland because Celtic peoples occupied the center and west of the Iberian Peninsula.

    Thanks to the study of the R1b-DF27, migrations can be traced throughout history carried out by Spanish or Portuguese men. An example of this are the Latin American populations, where the variant is found at frequencies of 40% in Colombia, 36% in Puerto Rico, 10% in Mexico and 8% in Peru. In fact, the presence of this chromosome is much lower in populations with a stronger indigenous component, such as Mexico and Peru, indicating less mixing of their individuals with settlers in the past .


    Even in Europe, the frequencies of the Y subgroups have been used to detect short-term migration events. Thus, the traces of the expansion of the kingdom of Aragon towards the Mediterranean during the 14th and 15th centuries, or the Castilian occupation of Flanders in the 16th century can be traced through the male lineages, in particular, through R1b-DF27 .


    Furthermore, the study of this chromosomal variant may have applications in forensic genetics. Their presence in a biological sample collected at a crime scene can help identify the geographic origin of the potential criminal.



    Frequencies of the DF27 variant in Iberian and European populations


    https://www.nationalgeographic.com.es/ciencia/actualidad/40-los-varones-espanoles-portugueses-desciende-antepasado-comun-hace-4500-anos_11921
    Last edited by Duarte; 02-03-21 at 21:48.

  9. #34
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    I highly doubt that only 10% of Mexicans are R1b-DF27. Assuming that the nationwide percentages for Spain were transplanted to the colonies without accounting for regional differences, this would mean that only ~25% of Mexican Y lineages are of Spanish origin (the 10% of R1b-DF27 being 40% of all spanish lineages there), which doesn't sound accurate.

    Do we have any information on where the samples were taken? That figure would make sense for an indigenous community, not for the mainstream mestizo population.

  10. #35
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by rickhippolito View Post
    I highly doubt that only 10% of Mexicans are R1b-DF27. Assuming that the nationwide percentages for Spain were transplanted to the colonies without accounting for regional differences, this would mean that only ~25% of Mexican Y lineages are of Spanish origin (the 10% of R1b-DF27 being 40% of all spanish lineages there), which doesn't sound accurate.

    Do we have any information on where the samples were taken? That figure would make sense for an indigenous community, not for the mainstream mestizo population.
    Table 1 - R1b-DF27 frequencies in the analyzed samples of population.

    Population N R1b-DF27 frequency (%)
    Colombia 60 35.00
    Panamá 53 32.08
    Nicaragua 165 32.73
    El Salvador 29 27.59
    Guatemala 44 29.55
    Mexicoa 32 9.38
    Puerto Ricoa 54 33.33
    Colombiaa 43 37.21

    ‘a’ refers to population extracted from 1000 Genomes Project [[10]].


    Source:

    The impact of haplogroup R1b-DF27 in Hispanic admixed populations from Latin America

    https://www.fsigeneticssup.com/artic...237-9/fulltext

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickhippolito View Post
    I highly doubt that only 10% of Mexicans are R1b-DF27. Assuming that the nationwide percentages for Spain were transplanted to the colonies without accounting for regional differences, this would mean that only ~25% of Mexican Y lineages are of Spanish origin (the 10% of R1b-DF27 being 40% of all spanish lineages there), which doesn't sound accurate.
    .
    That’s a naive assumption to make. Why would you find it logical to assume that national percentages in Iberia would be identically reflected in Latin America? There are so many variables you’re failing to consider that I don’t even know where to begin.

    For starters, we know that the Americas absorbed disproportionate numbers of various Iberia’s minority populations (e.g. Conversos, Moriscos). We also know that the vast majority of conquistadores, colonists, etc. came from the poorer and more southern regions of Spain (e.g. Extremadura). Those two factors alone could easily account for major discrepancies in the relative distribution of such markers.

  12. #37
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    New twist on DF27

    Now that some time has passed and the methodologies for Y-DNA analysis have become more advanced and commonplace, we need to revisit the idea of the origin on R1B-DF27.

    The old analysis from the 2017 paper used basic SNP testing and STRs - very rudimentary tactics compared to the BigY and Yfull sequences available now.

    Using the Yfull tree there is an interesting phenomenon that appears when examining the DF27 sub branches. The DF27 in Britain did NOT come from Iberia and the DF27 in Iberia did NOT come from Britain. There is essentially zero downstream SNP overlap between the two countries. This means that the migrations into Britain and Iberia of the originating source of DF27 happened at the same time from the same source.

    France seems most likely, as there are also some independent sub branches in Italy that aren't downstream of either Iberia or Britain. This also means that the original geographic genesis location of DF27 probably experienced Y-DNA replacement.

    The explanation for the high numbers of DF27 in Iberia are due to the founder effect and the now well-known Y-DNA genocide of the Iberian peninsula. The other expansion zones for DF27 (Britain/Italy) did not wipe out the inhabitants and create a founder effect.

    Relevant photos of Yfull branches show simultaneous branching without either the British or Iberian being the originating source, but rather a bifurcation approx 3800 years ago:






    (continuing)
    Administrator of the Young Family Project
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  13. #38
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    (continued)

    Apparently I'm now exceeding my quota for attachments......to be continued but the next three screenshots would have been more of the same, branches present in Iberia and Britain that bifurcated about 3700-3800 years ago with no overlap.

    Hopefully this will bring about some discussion on the old celtic or celtiberian migrations of the bronze age. Keep in mind that DNA testing companies often assign some British testers a few percentage points of Basque - probably due to ancient similarities.

    Edit: Also revisit the original maps in this thread to see the presence of DF27 in Britain especially.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    (continued)

    Apparently I'm now exceeding my quota for attachments......to be continued but the next three screenshots would have been more of the same, branches present in Iberia and Britain that bifurcated about 3700-3800 years ago with no overlap.

    Hopefully this will bring about some discussion on the old celtic or celtiberian migrations of the bronze age. Keep in mind that DNA testing companies often assign some British testers a few percentage points of Basque - probably due to ancient similarities.

    Edit: Also revisit the original maps in this thread to see the presence of DF27 in Britain especially.

    What a bunch of nonsense, you should dedicate yourself to studying your paternal lineage, and not trying to guess our origin. The first df27 are in Iberia and the south of France,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    What a bunch of nonsense, you should dedicate yourself to studying your paternal lineage, and not trying to guess our origin. The first df27 are in Iberia and the south of France,
    Perhaps some support rather than nonsense would be warranted by you. Offer something or keep quiet. Iberia is clearly not the origination of DF27 based on the YSNP tree. Southern France would be consistent.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Perhaps some support rather than nonsense would be warranted by you. Offer something or keep quiet. Iberia is clearly not the origination of DF27 based on the YSNP tree. Southern France would be consistent.
    Southern France not sure, geographic barycenter of the DF27s is about Calais City (North of France) : https://phylogeographer.com/r-df27-and-pas-de-calais/

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Perhaps some support rather than nonsense would be warranted by you. Offer something or keep quiet. Iberia is clearly not the origination of DF27 based on the YSNP tree. Southern France would be consistent.
    These are the oldest cases of Df27 that we know of. In Iberia, there was a massive founder effect with the two major branches of Df25, i.e. Z195 and ZZ12 represented since the beginning of the Bronze Age.

    *EHU002 (2.434 BC)-Yacimiento de El Hundido-HapY-R1b-P312>DF27-Mit-K1a4/a1
    *GBVPK (2.380 BC)- Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue-HapY-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1-Z195-Mit-J2b1/a
    *I8561 (2.272 BC)-Isnello, [email protected]
    *I3123 (2.165 BC)-Buffa, Sicilia-HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-U8b1/b1
    *I3756-Castillejo del Bonete (1.897 BC)-HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-A6387-BY61519-Mit-H1
    *I3494-Coveta del Frare-(1.836 BC)-Hap Y-R1b-P312-DF27-ZZ12-BY3332-Mit-J1c1/b
    *OBE3626-1-Obernai-Alsacia-(1.813 BC)-HapY-R1b-Df27-ZZ12>Z225>Z229/F1343-Mit-R1b
    *I5441 (1.800 AC)-Neale's Cave, Paington, [email protected]
    *I1312d- Can Roqueta (1.782 BC)[email protected]
    *VAD001-Valdescusa (1.741 BC)-HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Z229*-Mit-U5b1
    *I3397-Lloma de Betxí (1.741 BC)- HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-K1a2/b
    *Esp005-Cueva de los Lagos (1.700 AC)-HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Y3224-Mit-K1a
    *I6470- Dolmen del Virgazal (1.651 BC)-HapY-R1b-Df27-ZZ12-Y30814-FGC33092-Mit-J1c1
    *I10939-Cueva de Bray-(1.650 BC)-HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-A6387-A11632-Mit-K1a3/a
    *I4563- Galls Carboners (1.600 BC)-HapY-R1b-DF27-Z195-Z198-BY36372-Mit-H1/H84
    *I12209- La Requejada (1.289 BC)-HapY-R1b-Df27-ZZ12-BY15964-Mit-H1ah
    *WEZ59-Tollense (1.250 BC)-HapY-R1b-P312-Yleaf-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1a-Df27-Z220-Mit-U5a2/b1a

    1-El Hundido (2.434 BC)-We have a Df27 buried at the entrance of a Neolithic dolmen with grave goods typical of the Iberian BB culture-BB burial-Oval pit in the corridor of a dolmen-Male+45 years, 1,85 m, Brachicephally, fetal position in right lateral decubitus and with NO-SE orientation-Grave goods- Ciempozuelos style vessel, copper dagger, V perforated button, stone wristguard-

    Y Chromosome Haplogroup assignments for ~2500 ancient samples-Reich Lab-Harvard- EHU002 belongs to R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/7-DF27>DF83- Position (hg19)-22901108 - Position (hg38)-20739222-R-S24844/A12032-Ancestral Allele-C>TR1bP312>ZZ11_1>DF27>ZZ12>Z2559>FGC4920>DF83>Z25 63>Z2567>CTS9545>CTS6519>FGC67201>Y15926>A11786>A1 2020/Y23959-Marker [S24844] currently considered coincident with marker [A12020], using that phylogenetic tree.

    R1b1a/1b1a/1a2:P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579
    R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/7:A12032/S24844


    2-Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue- Archaeological material is characteristic of the Late Neolithic and the Early-Middle Bronze Age. In particular hemispherical V-perforated buttons could be attributed to early Bell Beakers-Iberic influence. Two pottery fragments of the later Pyrenean style, as well as turtle-shaped V-perforated buttons were also present. Two double-ended copper awls of square cross-section and one barbed-and-tanged arrowhead could be attributed to any of these two early Bell Beaker phases. Based on the radiocarbon dates presented here, individual GBVPK (2,461-2,299 cal. years BCE) is included in the late Bell Beaker timing period (Pyrenean-2.380 BC)-HapY-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1-Df27-Z195 Mit-J2b1/a-Middle Bell Beaker- Geographically, the western part of the region from the Pyrenees and the Middle Garonne to central Languedoc was occupied by the Pyrenean group, while the eastern part, from eastern Languedoc to the Alps, was occupied by the Rhodano-Provençal group-Nothing suggests that the people of the Bell Beaker Culture were a population or group specialised in a specific kind of activity. Collective burials dominate (caves and rock shelters, hypogaea, dolmens, block tombs) and were frequently reused from the start of the 3rd millennium BC onwards. Pyrenean Group- The best comparisons for the decorated pottery come once again from the Iberian Peninsula, but rather in Spain with the Ciempozuelos group (Garrido Pena 2000) for which some forms are identical to objects in the Rhodano-Provençal group (Lemercier 2003b). Some objects suggest other contacts, for instance microlit crescents point to contacts with Italy, while certain ceramic forms resemble forms in central or northern Europe. Domestic pottery seems to have been shared with other recent Bell Beaker groups across a large geographic area: in central Italy, Switzerland, the Rhône-Saône corridor to Normandy and along the Atlantic coast (Besse 2003; Leonini 2003).

    Sicily (Isnello, Buffa)The presence of Steppe ancestry in Early Bronze Age Sicily is also evident in Y chromosome analysis, which reveals that 4 of the 5 Early Bronze Age males had Steppe-associated Y-haplogroup R1b1a/1a2a/1a2. Two of these were Y-haplogroup R1b1a/1a2a/1a2a/1 (Z195) which today is largely restricted to Iberia and has been hypothesized to have originated there 2500-2000 BCE. This evidence of west-to-east gene flow from Iberia is also suggested by qpAdm modeling where the only parsimonious proximate source for the Steppe ancestry we found in the main Sicily-EBA cluster is Iberians


    Then we have Df27 in Iberia, southern France and Sicily in deposits of the Bb culture. The pottery of the French site is identical to that of the Spanish site, and the Sicilians are of Iberian origin. The origin of Df27 is in the French-Cantabrian region, and from there it spread to the rest of Europe during the Bronze Age.

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