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Thread: R1b DF27 in Iberia

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivorix View Post
    it is named SNPtracker.com if u are interested on it,it's a cool site it's based in FTDNA but on Mapping mostly and include ancient samples
    Yes I already knew what it was and where the data comes from and the conclusions it is making based on limited samples and data. I also know how to analyze BAM files of the same ancient specimens used. The huge problems of using ancient samples for the conclusions SNPtracker makes are that there aren't enough samples with high enough resolution to actually know where individuals with specific SNPs didn't exist within a specific century. DF27 and many of the subclades are not easy SNPs to test for and it is worse in ancient samples that have a high rate of DNA degradation and the DNA testing of individuals that are positive for P312 can have a no-call (no data) for DF27 and many relevant downstream SNPs but that does not mean that they were negative for DF27.

    The best example is EHU002 (UE 450) 2562–2306 cal BCE (c. 2434 BC) El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León, Spain. We have no idea if he is positive for negative for DF27 since there is no data for DF27 for that individual. See also https://sites.google.com/site/rox2cl...ent-df27?pli=1.

    SNPtracker suffers from an under coverage non-sampling error since the ancient specimens tested are based on the specimens that the geneticists could find and not based on proper sampling and also because there is too much DNA degradation of the ancient samples and because DF27 is hard to test for even when there is no degradation. Therefore the mapper has incorrect conclusions.

    Additionally, high resolution Y-DNA testing is a hobby that is far more popular with people in the United States with ancestry from the British Isles. Spain, Portugal, and Latin American countries have much lower participation which also causes errors with SNPtracker. The frequency of DF27 is highest is Spain, Portugal, and southern France and the low participation of people that are from there or have direct paternal ancestry from there aren't represented in SNPtracker or FTDNA or YFull.

    Now on to why I asked the question that you quoted. Degredado stated "My as of now terminal haplogroup originated around 150 BC in western Britain, according to that website" There is absolutely no way to know where his terminal haplogroup originated because of the dearth of ancient samples and because most of the SNPs between P312 and BY101711 have no data meaning we do not know if many of them are positive or negative for those SNPs. SNPtracker should do a much better job of explaining the low coverage of ancient samples, the very low number of ancient samples meaning a lot of populations over the centuries are not represented, and the low coverage of modern samples in comparison to the British Isles. They should also have the problems announced on the mapper page in large enough lettering to alert the reader.

    No one should ever take SNPtracker at face value. It's unfortunate that it is so easy to spread misinformation and so hard to educate people on the truth. Degredado has already suffered from the spread of misinformation. I attempt to do my part in educating readers without knowing if I was ever successful.

  2. #52
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Luso View Post
    I'm an off-shoot of Df27, Z225. I believe the oldest sample found for it is in eastern France. I'd assume at the moment Df27 originated somewhere around modern France, German border going by samples alone. And then the explanation of its prominence in iberia today is due to a massive founder effect.
    EHU002 (UE 450) 2562–2306 cal BCE El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León, Spain does not have a read for DF27 due to DNA degradation. Therefore it could actually be positive for DF27 yet it is unknown. If it actually is DF27 then it is older than GBVPK: France, Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue, 2461-2299 cal BC

    However, it is true that DF27 likely originated outside of Iberia but had an early entry into Iberia and became prominent there. We can logically conclude that based on several factors. First of all the SNPs L23, L51, L52, and L151 are all absent from Western Europe prior to 2800 BC. Then when all of the sudden Steppe autosomal DNA appears which has only been detected in older samples from the Steppe and Afanasievo, or at least outside of Western Europe, it shows up in Western Europe then samples with L23, L51, L52 start to appear in Western and Central Europe and then samples with P312 appear in BBC all over Western Europe. So we can see the progression of the migration and the mutations from east to west. No matter where DF27 was first born it spread out a lot and had the most significant impact in Iberia and southern France which make GBVPK and EHU002 unsurprising finds although the degradation of the position of DF27 of EHU002 make the discussion more complicated.

    See also https://sites.google.com/site/rox2cluster/ancient-df27

    "The earliest R1b-P312 burial in Iberia is EHU002 (UE 450) 2562–2306 cal BCE (3933±32 BP, CSIC-1896) El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León, Spain. At c. 2434 BC, EHU002 is younger than P312>U152 RISE563, dated to 2572-2512 calBCE (c. 2542 BC), although considering the wide margins of error there is not much difference. Both are probably a few hundred years younger than the first U152 and DF27 'brothers'. EHU002 is P312+ DF19- L238- Z290- L21- but it is not known if he is + or - for DF99, DF27, Z195, ZZ12, U152 or L2. As with other R1b-P312* and R1b-P310* results (the asterisk meaning no downstream SNPs found) from time-degraded ancient DNA, and considering the location of the burial not far from oldest DF27+ burial GBVPK at Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue ( c. 2380 BC), there is a good likelihood that EHU002 is DF27+ but unfortunately there is no SNP evidence."

    "As mentioned above, EHU002 (UE 450) 2562–2306 cal BCE (c. 2434 BC) El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León, Spain with 'steppe ancestry' is P312+ DF19- L238- Z290- L21- but DF99, DF27, Z195, ZZ12, U152 and L2 are missing/no-calls. As with other R1b-P312* and R1b-P310* results from time-degraded ancient DNA there is a good likelihood of EHU002 being derived/positive for DF27 but the SNPs are not present in the sample. The high 'EEF' or 'southern' autosomal admixture R1b-P310* Boscombe Bowman from c. 2330 BC in Wessex, listed below, has an additional hint that he might be DF27+ in the form of FGC11381. That SNP is potentially old enough, is present, and is derived/positive in the Bowman's low resolution .bam file. However, one isolated downstream SNP is inconclusive."

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivorix View Post
    idk if it has origin in iberia i've senn a lot of frenchs and English people with it even it have a minor presence in southern Scandinavia
    But those are modern samples and not ancient samples and to boot the English have a much higher participation rate causing a sampling bias. To find the likely birth place we need a lot more ancient samples and they need to have low DNA degradation. The highest frequency of DF27 is definitely among the Basque although it is partly because they were impacted less by the Moors.

  4. #54
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    According to Nevgen the 18th dynasty pharaohs (Amenhotep III, Akhenaten, Tutankhamun) most likely belonged to R1b-DF27 or R1b-U152.

  5. #55
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152>Z56>S47>Z44
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a

    Ethnic group
    European-Amerimutt (Northwest European ancestry, German paternity)
    Country: USA - New York



    Big if true ^
    Am a bit skeptical though
    Most specific Ydna: R-Z44>CTS8949*

  6. #56
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    According to Nevgen the 18th dynasty pharaohs (Amenhotep III, Akhenaten, Tutankhamun) most likely belonged to R1b-DF27 or R1b-U152.
    Only STR-based, but apparently true

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...mun%27s_family

  7. #57
    Regular Member Duarte's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF27/R-Y45921

    Country: Brazil



    3 members found this post helpful.
    My ‘SNP tracker’, last update.




    http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

  8. #58
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152>Z56>S47>Z44
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a

    Ethnic group
    European-Amerimutt (Northwest European ancestry, German paternity)
    Country: USA - New York



    It appears to me that most of DF27 arrived in Iberia with Celtic-related peoples of the Urnfield and early Hallstatt Cultures from central Europe. This also explains how DF27 has some non-insignificant presence there and in Germanic Europe as well plus Poland.

    A graphic I altered sloppily to help demonstrate what I think are roughly the migration routes taken by Proto-Italo-Celtic peoples from the Early to later Bronze Age.
    Attachment 13785

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