Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: R1b DF27 in Iberia

  1. #1
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,329
    Points
    280,964
    Level
    100
    Points: 280,964, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    R1b DF27 in Iberia

    See:
    Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x

    "Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage and, in particular, to ascertain the time and place where it originated, as well as its subsequent dynamics. We found that R1b-DF27 is present in frequencies ~40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques, but it drops quickly to 6–20% in France. Overall, the age of R1b-DF27 is estimated at ~4,200 years ago, at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when the Y chromosome landscape of W Europe was thoroughly remodeled. In spite of its high frequency in Basques, Y-STR internal diversity of R1b-DF27 is lower there, and results in more recent age estimates; NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27. Subhaplogroup frequencies within R1b-DF27 are geographically structured, and show domains that are reminiscent of the pre-Roman Celtic/Iberian division, or of the medieval Christian kingdoms."


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,329
    Points
    280,964
    Level
    100
    Points: 280,964, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    PCA of subhaplogroup frequencies:


  3. #3
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,548
    Points
    62,907
    Level
    77
    Points: 62,907, Level: 77
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 343
    Overall activity: 26.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    If North-Eastern Iberia is where DF27 originated, then how did it find its way to places such as Germany, Poland or Lithuania? One of ancient Bell Beaker men from Eastern Germany - I0806 (QLB28) - was DF27.

    I'm also DF27.

    Historically there were more expansions from East-Central Europe to Iberia than the other way around.

  4. #4
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,329
    Points
    280,964
    Level
    100
    Points: 280,964, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Could someone get a better graphic of this map up? I think it's pretty interesting.



  5. #5
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,548
    Points
    62,907
    Level
    77
    Points: 62,907, Level: 77
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 343
    Overall activity: 26.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    I'm interested mainly in Z2552 (and downstream) but they don't have maps for this branch:

    https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf

    Z195 is the main branch in Iberia and it probably originated in situ, but not DF27 as a whole.

  6. #6
    Moderator Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,032
    Points
    23,189
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,189, Level: 46
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 361
    Overall activity: 12.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Why did they use only Tuscans for this study? Wasn't better to use also North Italians? If Tuscans have 6% of R1b-DF27, Northwestern Italians could have even more.

    49% in Iberians does it mean that Iberians have had a very strong founder effect?

    "DF27 was first discovered by citizen scientists14 and, although among the burgeoning amateur genetic genealogy it is known to be frequent in Iberian populations and their overseas offshoots, few academic publications have been devoted to it. It was found in the 1000 Genome Project populations at a frequency of 49% in Iberians, 6% in Tuscans, 7% in British, and it was absent elsewhere except for admixed populations in the Americas: Colombia (40%), Puerto Rico (36%), Mexico (10%), Perú (8%), African-Americans (4%) and Afro-Caribbeans (2%)14, 15."

  7. #7
    Moderator Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,032
    Points
    23,189
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,189, Level: 46
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 361
    Overall activity: 12.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Could someone get a better graphic of this map up? I think it's pretty interesting.
    You can enlarge the pics.






  8. #8
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,329
    Points
    280,964
    Level
    100
    Points: 280,964, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Why did they use only Tuscans for this study? Wasn't better to use also North Italians? If Tuscans have 6% of R1b-DF27, Northwestern Italians could have even more.
    49% in Iberians does it mean that Iberians have had a very strong founder effect?
    "DF27 was first discovered by citizen scientists14 and, although among the burgeoning amateur genetic genealogy it is known to be frequent in Iberian populations and their overseas offshoots, few academic publications have been devoted to it. It was found in the 1000 Genome Project populations at a frequency of 49% in Iberians, 6% in Tuscans, 7% in British, and it was absent elsewhere except for admixed populations in the Americas: Colombia (40%), Puerto Rico (36%), Mexico (10%), Perú (8%), African-Americans (4%) and Afro-Caribbeans (2%)14, 15."
    I haven't drilled into the supporting documentation yet, but if they didn't look at Northern Italians, especially Northwestern Italians, that was a very bad oversight. I agree, there's probably more of it there.

    It does look very much like founder effect.

    Are we looking at Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age?

    This is from Bell Beaker Blogger:


    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6Y7NA0Eff9...ures01_big.jpg

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If North-Eastern Iberia is where DF27 originated, then how did it find its way to places such as Germany, Poland or Lithuania? One of ancient Bell Beaker men from Eastern Germany - I0806 (QLB28) - was DF27.

    I'm also DF27.

    Historically there were more expansions from East-Central Europe to Iberia than the other way around.
    Bell Beakers. The number of migrations is not a variable with that, moreover when the TMCRA is BB also.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  10. #10
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Parafarne's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-04-17
    Age
    34
    Posts
    96
    Points
    1,550
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,550, Level: 10
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 300
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Eurasian

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: Afghanistan



    Hey TOMENABLE in my view DF27 started as a few small tribes in celtic core area of Eastern France then overwhelming majority of which settled Iberia creating a founder effect there and the few remaining tribes in France expanded to other areas in central europe.So outside Iberia DF27 shows french settlement except very small iberian one.

  11. #11
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Parafarne's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-04-17
    Age
    34
    Posts
    96
    Points
    1,550
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,550, Level: 10
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 300
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Eurasian

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: Afghanistan



    Could someone please give the percentages for southern portugal and andalusia, thanks in advance ; )

  12. #12
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-07-17
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    2

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152-L2-BY3604
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4c2a

    Ethnic group
    French/Native American
    Country: United States



    My maternal grandfather was R1b-DF27-S225, his family name was changed by the family/priests to Raymond in Canada to honor the immigrant ancestor Romain de Faugas but in France the family name was de Faugas and the family was from Langon in SW France.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    AdeoF's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-03-13
    Location
    London - England
    Posts
    251
    Points
    5,643
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,643, Level: 22
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 407
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L21 (R-DF13)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1 (H1h1) or (H1e1)

    Ethnic group
    Spanish
    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If North-Eastern Iberia is where DF27 originated, then how did it find its way to places such as Germany, Poland or Lithuania? One of ancient Bell Beaker men from Eastern Germany - I0806 (QLB28) - was DF27.

    I'm also DF27.

    Historically there were more expansions from East-Central Europe to Iberia than the other way around.
    I am of Spanish admixture and im not DF27 but R-L21 which is more in Celtic Europe. Im still surprised that you are DF27 and from Poland (which is a first for me). However it does show in the migration that DF27 did from central Europe so it can be that. Are you from North Poland by any chance???

  14. #14
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-17
    Posts
    7
    Points
    425
    Level
    4
    Points: 425, Level: 4
    Level completed: 75%, Points required for next Level: 25
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    DF27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English, Eastern European, French, Welsh, Dutch, Native American.
    Country: Canada



    In case it is of use to anybody: I am DF27 - Z198. My family has traced our earliest known paternal ancestor to Île de Ré in West-Central France.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Yet ...
    it does make little sense that Portugal has the Highest M269 without P312 or DF27...
    and if TMRC for DF27 as stated in the study is practically the same as its son Z195 and Portugal has "no" Z195, unlike the rest of iberia... it makes a strange migration pattern from East to West, does it not?

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    I1a3_Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-05-17
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    522
    Points
    8,250
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,250, Level: 27
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 500
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    Why does the M147 branch increase percentage in Lincolnshire?

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
    Administrator of the Young Family Project
    Genetic genealogy enthusiast

  17. #17
    Junior Member Achievements:
    31 days registered100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-12-17
    Posts
    2
    Points
    155
    Level
    2
    Points: 155, Level: 2
    Level completed: 5%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: USA - New Mexico



    I see nothing in Angela's graphic about the ZZ12_1 branch of DF27, only the Z195 branch and its sub-branches. Is that because there is little known about ZZ12_1?

    Thanks

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    razyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-11
    Posts
    57
    Points
    6,418
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,418, Level: 23
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 132
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    RP312 DF27 Z196 Z220

    Country: USA - Virginia



    Quote Originally Posted by cynthiag View Post
    I see nothing in Angela's graphic about the ZZ12_1 branch of DF27, only the Z195 branch and its sub-branches. Is that because there is little known about ZZ12_1?

    Thanks
    Angela's graphic is from the paper cited in the first post. That paper used a 2012 version of the ISOGG tree. In 2012 DF27 itself was newly identified, and ZZ12 was yet to be discovered (although many Z195- SNPs were known downstream of DF27).

  19. #19
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-06-19
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    6
    Points
    159
    Level
    2
    Points: 159, Level: 2
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 91
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b3

    Ethnic group
    Western European (Northern Spain and France)
    Country: South Africa



    Hello All,

    I am brand new to this forum, and need help from those of you who are more experienced.

    I recently completed testing and found that I am Y-DNA haplogroup RP312 DF27. I want to delve deeper and believe it does go much deeper, through better testing. But what more can I expect to find? How deep can one go?

    Thank you in advance.

    Juan

  20. #20
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-06-19
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    6
    Points
    159
    Level
    2
    Points: 159, Level: 2
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 91
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b3

    Ethnic group
    Western European (Northern Spain and France)
    Country: South Africa



    Hey All,

    Can someone help me understand the major subclades of of DF27, please? I still have to complete deeper testing (it is a nightmare to do this from South Africa due to government regulations!!), and I am in the meantime trying to study and understand the overall structure of DF27.

    From secondary research I understand (and I state this qualified since I am very new to this field) that DF27 originated in what is today North-Eastern Spain and South-Western France. So, at a macro level DF27 originated from Celtic tribes near today's Spain (Gallaeci/Galli/Celtiberi) and France (Pyrinees Aquitaine Gauls).

    My ancestors fled France (Lille) in the late 1600's as protestants - took a ship to South Africa - where I live today. What I know about my forebears end in the 1690's - the rest is just speculation - and will probably stay that way.

    Obviously what is of immense interest to me is the fact that my MtDNA is U5b2b3, which I also believe originates from Iberia. And....my mother and father shares the same surname....don't judge guys

    In my simplified universe I am piecing together that both my paternal and maternal line haplogroups originated in today's Spain/France.

    My maternal line seems has been living in Europe for a very long time, and paternal line moved recently (circa 4500 years ago) as Celts from Northern Europe to the South West of Europe where the DF27 mutation originated.

    So much to understand!!!

    Thanks so much in advance.

    J

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •