7000 Year Old DNA Found in Artsakh Cave Matches Genes of Modern Armenians

[bicicleur]

http://asbarez.com/157371/7000-year-...ern-armenians/

very few details :

“As a result, it was found that the genes of our distant ancestors correspond with those of modern Armenians,” he continued.

who knows more about this?

[Fire Haired14]

Awesome Find. But we've heard Armenian geneticists say the same thing about other ancient DNA results from Armenia even though the truth isn't so simple. It just means they belong to the same South Caucasus/West Asian genetic cluster modern Armenians do.

A 7,000 year old person similar to modern people in the South Caucasus proves EEF and CHG had begun mixing there really early on. That's the same time frame as LBK and Cardiel cultures in Europe.

[LeBrok]

Armenian and Georgian genome is 70-80 percent made of Caucasian and Baloch admixtures. These admixtures where always there in the area. The rest is EEF, Iranian Farmer and Levant/SW Asian. However BA Armenian samples are very different and don't exist anymore.

[IronSide]

Armenian and Georgian genome is 70-80 percent made of Caucasian and Baloch admixtures. These admixtures where always there in the area. The rest is EEF, Iranian Farmer and Levant/SW Asian.However BA Armenian samples are very different and don't exist anymore.

Which is really weird, it seems those with BA Armenian admixture have left but the people still speak an IE language, maybe proto-Armenians descend from a different population with an already diluted steppe admixture?

[bicicleur]

Which is really weird, it seems those with BA Armenian admixture have left but the people still speak an IE language, maybe proto-Armenians descend from a different population with an already diluted steppe admixture?

Urartu was a multi-ethnic multi-linguistic empire. (just like the Hititte empire)
Their original official language was Hurrite.
Then there was a dynastic switch and the official language became proto-Armenian.

[IronSide]

Urartu was a multi-ethnic multi-linguistic empire. (just like the Hititte empire)
Their original official language was Hurrite.
Then there was a dynastic switch and the official language became proto-Armenian.

We have to ask the question: why would a dynastic change cause a change in language? if rule merely shifted from one Urartian family to another shouldn't the language remain Urartian? I don't think it is a coincidence that Armenian was established as an elite language by a dynasty with an Iranian name, in my humble opinion, that might mean that the proto-Armenians were part of a coalition of Iranian tribes (they weren't descended from Iranians, but rather allied to them) united by Cyaxares of Media, Armenian itself is a heavily Iranianized language with almost half of its lexicon being of Iranian origin, if we were to connect that with the dilution of steppe admixture, we reach the conclusion that proto-Armenians may have arrived from the southeast of Armenia proper?

M536324	I1658		M182163	I1656		M930063	RISE423		M691697	RISE407		Modern
Armenia EBA			Armenia MLBA			Armenia MBA			Armenia LBA			Armenian
Run time	8.22		Run time	8.42		Run time	6.24		Run time	3.92		Run time
S-Indian	0.27		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	1
Baloch	25.53		Baloch	26.71		Baloch	23.13		Baloch	28.22		Baloch	18
Caucasian	56.75		Caucasian	42.8		Caucasian	38.66		Caucasian	30.75		Caucasian	57
NE-Euro	4.79		NE-Euro	16.99		NE-Euro	18.57		NE-Euro	24.77		NE-Euro	3
SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-
Siberian	-		Siberian	-		Siberian	0.54		Siberian	-		Siberian	-
NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-
Papuan	-		Papuan	-		Papuan	0.92		Papuan	-		Papuan	-
American	-		American	0.12		American	1.3		American	1.54		American
Beringian	-		Beringian	-		Beringian	0.59		Beringian	-		Beringian	-
Mediterranean	5.88		Mediterranean	9.14		Mediterranean	9.34		Mediterranean	6.98		Mediterranean	8
SW-Asian	6.45		SW-Asian	4.23		SW-Asian	4.94		SW-Asian	6.38		SW-Asian	13
San	-		San	-		San	-		San	-		San	-
E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-
Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-
W-African	0.33		W-African	-		W-African	1.99		W-African	1.36		W-African

[bicicleur]

We have to ask the question: why would a dynastic change cause a change in language? if rule merely shifted from one Urartian family to another shouldn't the language remain Urartian? I don't think it is a coincidence that Armenian was established as an elite language by a dynasty with an Iranian name, in my humble opinion, that might mean that the proto-Armenians were part of a coalition of Iranian tribes (they weren't descended from Iranians, but rather allied to them) united by Cyaxares of Media, Armenian itself is a heavily Iranianized language with almost half of its lexicon being of Iranian origin, if we were to connect that with the dilution of steppe admixture, we reach the conclusion that proto-Armenians may have arrived from the southeast of Armenia proper?

M536324	I1658		M182163	I1656		M930063	RISE423		M691697	RISE407		Modern
Armenia EBA			Armenia MLBA			Armenia MBA			Armenia LBA			Armenian
Run time	8.22		Run time	8.42		Run time	6.24		Run time	3.92		Run time
S-Indian	0.27		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	1
Baloch	25.53		Baloch	26.71		Baloch	23.13		Baloch	28.22		Baloch	18
Caucasian	56.75		Caucasian	42.8		Caucasian	38.66		Caucasian	30.75		Caucasian	57
NE-Euro	4.79		NE-Euro	16.99		NE-Euro	18.57		NE-Euro	24.77		NE-Euro	3
SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-
Siberian	-		Siberian	-		Siberian	0.54		Siberian	-		Siberian	-
NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-
Papuan	-		Papuan	-		Papuan	0.92		Papuan	-		Papuan	-
American	-		American	0.12		American	1.3		American	1.54		American
Beringian	-		Beringian	-		Beringian	0.59		Beringian	-		Beringian	-
Mediterranean	5.88		Mediterranean	9.14		Mediterranean	9.34		Mediterranean	6.98		Mediterranean	8
SW-Asian	6.45		SW-Asian	4.23		SW-Asian	4.94		SW-Asian	6.38		SW-Asian	13
San	-		San	-		San	-		San	-		San	-
E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-
Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-
W-African	0.33		W-African	-		W-African	1.99		W-African	1.36		W-African

I see there is a shift from Caucasian to NE Europe and some Baloch.
Would you think Armenian R1b-Z2103 came to Armenia through Iran, south of the Caspian?
What about the supposed link between Armenian and Greek, which was allready in Greece with Mycenians?

	Armenia	Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1407/ARE 12]	M	4350-3700 BCE	L1a	L863+, L878+, M61+ (L), L656+, L1304+ (L1), P329+, M27+, M76+ (L1a). No calls were made for SNPs downstream of L1a	H	Lazaridis 2016
	Armenia	Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1634/ARE 1/44]	M	4330-3060 BCE	L1a	L863+, L878+, M61+ (L), L656+, M22+, L1304+ (L1), P329+, M27+, M76+ (L1a). No calls were made for SNPs downstream of L1a	H2a1	Lazaridis 2016
	Armenia	Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1631/ARE 1/43C]	F	4250-4050 BCE			K1a8	Lazaridis 2016
	Armenia	Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1632/ARE 1/46]	M	4230-4000 BCE	L1a	L878+, M185+, M11+, M61+, L855+ (L), L656+ (L1), P329+, M27+ (L1a)	K1a8	Lazaridis 2016
	Armenia	Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1409/ARE 20]	F	4229-3985 BCE			U4a	Lazaridis 2016
Kura-Araxes	Armenia	Talin [I1658 / TA3/R8]	F	3347-3092 calBCE (4492±29 BP)			U3a2	Lazaridis 2016
Kura-Araxes	Armenia	Kalavan [I1633 / KA1/14]	F	2619-2410 calBCE (3990±35 BP)			H1u	Lazaridis 2016
Kura-Araxes	Armenia	Kalavan [I1635 / KA1/12]	M	2619-2465 calBCE (4005±35 BP)	R1b1-M415 (xM269) > genetiker R1b1a-CTS4244(xV88, P297)		X2f	Lazaridis 2016; revision
Middle Bronze Age	Armenia	Nerquin Getashen [RISE416]	M	1943-1445 BC	E-M84 (Semitic subclade)	Semargl @ Molgen	K1a17a	Allentoft 2015
Middle Bronze Age	Armenia	Nerquin Getashen ; south of Lake Sevan ; related to Trialeti culture [RISE413]	M	1906-1698 BC	R1b	R1b1 (M415/PF6251+ SK2063/FGC21034/V2197-, Y5586- FGC3890/Y11839-)	T2c1f	Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA pers. comm. from author + additional info from Felix Emmanuel and Vladimir Tagankin
Middle Bronze Age	Armenia	Nerquin Getashen [RISE423]	M	1402-1211 BC	E1b	E1b1b1b2a1a (L795)	T2a	Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author + add info from Steve Fix
	Armenia	Katnaghbiur Kurgan 1 [I1656/ Kat 16]	F	1501-1402 calBCE (3168±27 BP)			T1a1'3	Lazaridis 2016
Late Bronze Age	Armenia	Norabak [RISE408]	M	1209-1009 BC	J2b	J2b2a (Z588+ Z589+ Z590+ Z622+ Y1276+, Z590 + Z2515+, Z627-)	I5c	Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author, additional info from Vince Tilroe
Late Bronze Age	Armenia	Noratus [RISE412]	F	1193-945 BC			U4c1a	Allentoft 2015
Late Bronze Age	Armenia	Kapan [RISE396]	F	1192-937 calBCE (2879±31 BP)				Allentoft 2015; Lazaridis 2016
Late Bronze Age	Armenia	Norabak [RISE407]	F	1115-895 BC			H8a	Allentoft 2015
Late Bronze Age	Armenia	Kapan [RISE397]	M	1048-855 BC	R1b	R1b1a2a2 (Y4371/Z8128) + downstream +Z2106 > PH4902+ > Y:18249219(A/C)+ CTS9219- on R1b1a2 Project tree	T1a2	Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author + additional info from Sergey Malyshev
Lake Urmia Iranian Azerbaijan Iron Age Mannean citadel	Iran	Tepe Hasanlu (F38)	M	971-832 BC	R1b1a2a2 – Z2103		N1a3a	http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...oushaki.SM.pdf

[halfalp]

I see there is a shift from Caucasian to NE Europe and some Baloch.
Would you think Armenian R1b-Z2103 came to Armenia through Iran, south of the Caspian?
What about the supposed link between Armenian and Greek, which was allready in Greece with Mycenians?

	Armenia	Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1407/ARE 12]	M	4350-3700 BCE	L1a	L863+, L878+, M61+ (L), L656+, L1304+ (L1), P329+, M27+, M76+ (L1a). No calls were made for SNPs downstream of L1a	H	Lazaridis 2016
	Armenia	Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1634/ARE 1/44]	M	4330-3060 BCE	L1a	L863+, L878+, M61+ (L), L656+, M22+, L1304+ (L1), P329+, M27+, M76+ (L1a). No calls were made for SNPs downstream of L1a	H2a1	Lazaridis 2016
	Armenia	Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1631/ARE 1/43C]	F	4250-4050 BCE			K1a8	Lazaridis 2016
	Armenia	Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1632/ARE 1/46]	M	4230-4000 BCE	L1a	L878+, M185+, M11+, M61+, L855+ (L), L656+ (L1), P329+, M27+ (L1a)	K1a8	Lazaridis 2016
	Armenia	Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1409/ARE 20]	F	4229-3985 BCE			U4a	Lazaridis 2016
Kura-Araxes	Armenia	Talin [I1658 / TA3/R8]	F	3347-3092 calBCE (4492±29 BP)			U3a2	Lazaridis 2016
Kura-Araxes	Armenia	Kalavan [I1633 / KA1/14]	F	2619-2410 calBCE (3990±35 BP)			H1u	Lazaridis 2016
Kura-Araxes	Armenia	Kalavan [I1635 / KA1/12]	M	2619-2465 calBCE (4005±35 BP)	R1b1-M415 (xM269) > genetiker R1b1a-CTS4244(xV88, P297)		X2f	Lazaridis 2016; revision
Middle Bronze Age	Armenia	Nerquin Getashen [RISE416]	M	1943-1445 BC	E-M84 (Semitic subclade)	Semargl @ Molgen	K1a17a	Allentoft 2015
Middle Bronze Age	Armenia	Nerquin Getashen ; south of Lake Sevan ; related to Trialeti culture [RISE413]	M	1906-1698 BC	R1b	R1b1 (M415/PF6251+ SK2063/FGC21034/V2197-, Y5586- FGC3890/Y11839-)	T2c1f	Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA pers. comm. from author + additional info from Felix Emmanuel and Vladimir Tagankin
Middle Bronze Age	Armenia	Nerquin Getashen [RISE423]	M	1402-1211 BC	E1b	E1b1b1b2a1a (L795)	T2a	Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author + add info from Steve Fix
	Armenia	Katnaghbiur Kurgan 1 [I1656/ Kat 16]	F	1501-1402 calBCE (3168±27 BP)			T1a1'3	Lazaridis 2016
Late Bronze Age	Armenia	Norabak [RISE408]	M	1209-1009 BC	J2b	J2b2a (Z588+ Z589+ Z590+ Z622+ Y1276+, Z590 + Z2515+, Z627-)	I5c	Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author, additional info from Vince Tilroe
Late Bronze Age	Armenia	Noratus [RISE412]	F	1193-945 BC			U4c1a	Allentoft 2015
Late Bronze Age	Armenia	Kapan [RISE396]	F	1192-937 calBCE (2879±31 BP)				Allentoft 2015; Lazaridis 2016
Late Bronze Age	Armenia	Norabak [RISE407]	F	1115-895 BC			H8a	Allentoft 2015
Late Bronze Age	Armenia	Kapan [RISE397]	M	1048-855 BC	R1b	R1b1a2a2 (Y4371/Z8128) + downstream +Z2106 > PH4902+ > Y:18249219(A/C)+ CTS9219- on R1b1a2 Project tree	T1a2	Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author + additional info from Sergey Malyshev
Lake Urmia Iranian Azerbaijan Iron Age Mannean citadel	Iran	Tepe Hasanlu (F38)	M	971-832 BC	R1b1a2a2 – Z2103		N1a3a	http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...oushaki.SM.pdf

Seems clear that r1b-z2103 from lake urmia is the remanent of a yamnayan penetration. So if there is yamnayan in azerbaidjan there is yamnayan in anatolia...

[A. Papadimitriou]

I see there is a shift from Caucasian to NE Europe and some Baloch.
Would you think Armenian R1b-Z2103 came to Armenia through Iran, south of the Caspian?
What about the supposed link between Armenian and Greek, which was allready in Greece with Mycenians?

You see what you want to see. There are samples with high NE Euro already in the Chalcolithic, especially I1409 (25.53% )
while in LBA there is a sample with 59.95% Caucasian (RISE412).

[LeBrok]

You see what you want to see. There are samples with high NE Euro already in the Chalcolithic, especially I1409 (25.53% )
while in LBA there is a sample with 59.95% Caucasian (RISE412).

I think the Steppe penetration into Armenia was initiated in Chalcolithic around 4k BC. That would explain first and oldest split of Greek/Armenian and perhaps Tarim Basin guys from the rest of IEs. The rise412 can represent indigenous population who didn't mix with IEs, and is very close to modern Armenians.

There is pretty good continuity of modern Armenians since CHG.

M603839			M536324	I1658		Modern
Kotias CHG	8 KYA		Armenia EBA			Armenian
Run time	13.98		Run time	8.22		Run time
S-Indian	0.62		S-Indian	0.27		S-Indian	1
Baloch	36.63		Baloch	25.53		Baloch	20
Caucasian	54.15		Caucasian	56.75		Caucasian	52
NE-Euro	3.84		NE-Euro	4.79		NE-Euro	3
SE-Asian	0.59		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-
Siberian	0.77		Siberian	-		Siberian	-
NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-
Papuan	0.15		Papuan	-		Papuan	-
American	-		American	-		American
Beringian	-		Beringian	-		Beringian	-
Mediterranean	-		Mediterranean	5.88		Mediterranean	10
SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	6.45		SW-Asian	13
San	-		San	-		San	-
E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-
Pygmy	0.25		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-
W-African	3.01		W-African	0.33		W-African

[bicicleur]

I think the Steppe penetration into Armenia was initiated in Chalcolithic around 4k BC. That would explain first and oldest split of Greek/Armenian and perhaps Tarim Basin guys from the rest of IEs. The rise412 can represent indigenous population who didn't mix with IEs, and is very close to modern Armenians.

it makes sense to me
that would be the time of expansion of R1a Srubnaya/Sintashta and the expulsion of R1b Yamna out of the steppe

[halfalp]

Gedrosian admixture is linked with J2a from iran, a second bronze age wave from anatolia throught balkans even push them into british islands. Thats why people are so much confused they dont know how to seperate multiple migrations. All this has nothing to do with R1b or even CHG that lebrok wrongly think is born here, althought we know that CHG is related with ANE.

[halfalp]

Ahahahahah thats the new theory, indo-europeans going throught caucasus in armenia from there going in iran throught tarim basin... Yeah whatever !

[MOESAN]

Gedrosian admixture is linked with J2a from iran, a second bronze age wave from anatolia throught balkans even push them into british islands. Thats why people are so much confused they dont know how to seperate multiple migrations. All this has nothing to do with R1b or even CHG that lebrok wrongly think is born here, althought we know that CHG is related with ANE.

Maybe you have some skills to read among hen guts, concerning J2a in Britain? Could you develop your reasoning about ANE, CHG and Gedrosia; Perhaps it could help me to understand.

[davef]

I apologize, guys! :)

[davef]

seriously, people fantasize over them for some reason.

[Fluffy]

seriously, people fantasize over them for some reason.

i don’t get it either. The fascination with Indo European’s.

[davef]

^ one upvote from me, bro.

[Angela]

I know, right? Indo Europeans were probably just a bunch of 5'4 drooling morons who picked their noses, had huge ape like jaws, spoke in grunts, beat their women, and the stupid chariot that everyone lauds was invented by the lone "gifted" indo European with an IQ of 97 who spent days thinking about how to build one.

There is absolutely no need for that kind of thing. None of our ancestors should be described in that way. Indeed, no group of humans should be described in that way. Cut it out or there will be consequences.

[IronSide]

i don’t get it either. The fascination with Indo European’s.

When I first learned about the IE languages and their common origin, I was awed by how widespread the family was, how all these languages were originally one, it fascinates me to this very moment.

I know and it saddens me that such an interesting topic was hijacked by the Nazis and their modern leftovers, their fantasies were built on old disproven pseudoscience, and it should be viewed as such.

I think it's normal to be fascinated with a language family, whether alive or extinct, it tells a story, a story of the migration of peoples, it tells history. Another interest of mine is the Afro-Asiatic languages, combining linguistic and genetic evidence it seems likely that Afro-Asiatic originated in the Natufian culture and was spread to Africa by Levantine farmers, Ancient Egyptians, Cushites, Chads, Berbers, Semites and probably other extinct cultures were all descended from one linguistic community that lived in the early Neolithic villages of the ancient Levant, it is quite mythical really.

Indo-European society was probably divided into three classes of Priests, Warrior Nobles, and Commoners. When an IE speaking tribe would "collide" with another group, and somehow assimilate them, their social pyramids also "combine", meaning that not all the newcomers are going to be warriors and not all the indigenous are going to be commoners, remember that the Mycenaean noble didn't differ much from the commoners, and J2a was also found among them, and the major ancestral component was Anatolian Neolithic, which means they intermarried with the population before them.

They are an interesting group.