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Thread: 7000 Year Old DNA Found in Artsakh Cave Matches Genes of Modern Armenians

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    7000 Year Old DNA Found in Artsakh Cave Matches Genes of Modern Armenians

    http://asbarez.com/157371/7000-year-...ern-armenians/

    very few details :

    “As a result, it was found that the genes of our distant ancestors correspond with those of modern Armenians,” he continued.

    who knows more about this?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Awesome Find. But we've heard Armenian geneticists say the same thing about other ancient DNA results from Armenia even though the truth isn't so simple. It just means they belong to the same South Caucasus/West Asian genetic cluster modern Armenians do.

    A 7,000 year old person similar to modern people in the South Caucasus proves EEF and CHG had begun mixing there really early on. That's the same time frame as LBK and Cardiel cultures in Europe.

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    Armenian and Georgian genome is 70-80 percent made of Caucasian and Baloch admixtures. These admixtures where always there in the area. The rest is EEF, Iranian Farmer and Levant/SW Asian. However BA Armenian samples are very different and don't exist anymore.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Armenian and Georgian genome is 70-80 percent made of Caucasian and Baloch admixtures. These admixtures where always there in the area. The rest is EEF, Iranian Farmer and Levant/SW Asian.However BA Armenian samples are very different and don't exist anymore.
    Which is really weird, it seems those with BA Armenian admixture have left but the people still speak an IE language, maybe proto-Armenians descend from a different population with an already diluted steppe admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Which is really weird, it seems those with BA Armenian admixture have left but the people still speak an IE language, maybe proto-Armenians descend from a different population with an already diluted steppe admixture?
    Urartu was a multi-ethnic multi-linguistic empire. (just like the Hititte empire)
    Their original official language was Hurrite.
    Then there was a dynastic switch and the official language became proto-Armenian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Urartu was a multi-ethnic multi-linguistic empire. (just like the Hititte empire)
    Their original official language was Hurrite.
    Then there was a dynastic switch and the official language became proto-Armenian.
    We have to ask the question: why would a dynastic change cause a change in language? if rule merely shifted from one Urartian family to another shouldn't the language remain Urartian? I don't think it is a coincidence that Armenian was established as an elite language by a dynasty with an Iranian name, in my humble opinion, that might mean that the proto-Armenians were part of a coalition of Iranian tribes (they weren't descended from Iranians, but rather allied to them) united by Cyaxares of Media, Armenian itself is a heavily Iranianized language with almost half of its lexicon being of Iranian origin, if we were to connect that with the dilution of steppe admixture, we reach the conclusion that proto-Armenians may have arrived from the southeast of Armenia proper?

    M536324 I1658 M182163 I1656 M930063 RISE423 M691697 RISE407 Modern
    Armenia EBA Armenia MLBA Armenia MBA Armenia LBA Armenian
    Run time 8.22 Run time 8.42 Run time 6.24 Run time 3.92 Run time
    S-Indian 0.27 S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 1
    Baloch 25.53 Baloch 26.71 Baloch 23.13 Baloch 28.22 Baloch 18
    Caucasian 56.75 Caucasian 42.8 Caucasian 38.66 Caucasian 30.75 Caucasian 57
    NE-Euro 4.79 NE-Euro 16.99 NE-Euro 18.57 NE-Euro 24.77 NE-Euro 3
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 0.54 Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0.92 Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American 0.12 American 1.3 American 1.54 American
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 0.59 Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 5.88 Mediterranean 9.14 Mediterranean 9.34 Mediterranean 6.98 Mediterranean 8
    SW-Asian 6.45 SW-Asian 4.23 SW-Asian 4.94 SW-Asian 6.38 SW-Asian 13
    San - San - San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.33 W-African - W-African 1.99 W-African 1.36 W-African

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    We have to ask the question: why would a dynastic change cause a change in language? if rule merely shifted from one Urartian family to another shouldn't the language remain Urartian? I don't think it is a coincidence that Armenian was established as an elite language by a dynasty with an Iranian name, in my humble opinion, that might mean that the proto-Armenians were part of a coalition of Iranian tribes (they weren't descended from Iranians, but rather allied to them) united by Cyaxares of Media, Armenian itself is a heavily Iranianized language with almost half of its lexicon being of Iranian origin, if we were to connect that with the dilution of steppe admixture, we reach the conclusion that proto-Armenians may have arrived from the southeast of Armenia proper?

    M536324 I1658 M182163 I1656 M930063 RISE423 M691697 RISE407 Modern
    Armenia EBA Armenia MLBA Armenia MBA Armenia LBA Armenian
    Run time 8.22 Run time 8.42 Run time 6.24 Run time 3.92 Run time
    S-Indian 0.27 S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 1
    Baloch 25.53 Baloch 26.71 Baloch 23.13 Baloch 28.22 Baloch 18
    Caucasian 56.75 Caucasian 42.8 Caucasian 38.66 Caucasian 30.75 Caucasian 57
    NE-Euro 4.79 NE-Euro 16.99 NE-Euro 18.57 NE-Euro 24.77 NE-Euro 3
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 0.54 Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0.92 Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American 0.12 American 1.3 American 1.54 American
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 0.59 Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 5.88 Mediterranean 9.14 Mediterranean 9.34 Mediterranean 6.98 Mediterranean 8
    SW-Asian 6.45 SW-Asian 4.23 SW-Asian 4.94 SW-Asian 6.38 SW-Asian 13
    San - San - San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.33 W-African - W-African 1.99 W-African 1.36 W-African
    I see there is a shift from Caucasian to NE Europe and some Baloch.
    Would you think Armenian R1b-Z2103 came to Armenia through Iran, south of the Caspian?
    What about the supposed link between Armenian and Greek, which was allready in Greece with Mycenians?


    Armenia Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1407/ARE 12] M 4350-3700 BCE L1a L863+, L878+, M61+ (L), L656+, L1304+ (L1), P329+, M27+, M76+ (L1a). No calls were made for SNPs downstream of L1a H Lazaridis 2016

    Armenia Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1634/ARE 1/44] M 4330-3060 BCE L1a L863+, L878+, M61+ (L), L656+, M22+, L1304+ (L1), P329+, M27+, M76+ (L1a). No calls were made for SNPs downstream of L1a H2a1 Lazaridis 2016

    Armenia Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1631/ARE 1/43C] F 4250-4050 BCE

    K1a8 Lazaridis 2016

    Armenia Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1632/ARE 1/46] M 4230-4000 BCE L1a L878+, M185+, M11+, M61+, L855+ (L), L656+ (L1), P329+, M27+ (L1a) K1a8 Lazaridis 2016

    Armenia Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1409/ARE 20] F 4229-3985 BCE

    U4a Lazaridis 2016









    Kura-Araxes Armenia Talin [I1658 / TA3/R8] F 3347-3092 calBCE (4492±29 BP)

    U3a2 Lazaridis 2016
    Kura-Araxes Armenia Kalavan [I1633 / KA1/14] F 2619-2410 calBCE (3990±35 BP)

    H1u Lazaridis 2016
    Kura-Araxes Armenia Kalavan [I1635 / KA1/12] M 2619-2465 calBCE (4005±35 BP) R1b1-M415 (xM269) > genetiker R1b1a-CTS4244(xV88, P297)
    X2f Lazaridis 2016; revision
    Middle Bronze Age Armenia Nerquin Getashen [RISE416] M 1943-1445 BC E-M84 (Semitic subclade) Semargl @ Molgen K1a17a Allentoft 2015
    Middle Bronze Age Armenia Nerquin Getashen ; south of Lake Sevan ; related to Trialeti culture [RISE413] M 1906-1698 BC R1b R1b1 (M415/PF6251+ SK2063/FGC21034/V2197-, Y5586- FGC3890/Y11839-) T2c1f Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA pers. comm. from author + additional info from Felix Emmanuel and Vladimir Tagankin
    Middle Bronze Age Armenia Nerquin Getashen [RISE423] M 1402-1211 BC E1b E1b1b1b2a1a (L795) T2a Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author + add info from Steve Fix

    Armenia Katnaghbiur Kurgan 1
    [I1656/ Kat 16]
    F 1501-1402 calBCE (3168±27 BP)

    T1a1'3 Lazaridis 2016
    Late Bronze Age Armenia Norabak [RISE408] M 1209-1009 BC J2b J2b2a (Z588+ Z589+ Z590+ Z622+ Y1276+, Z590 + Z2515+, Z627-) I5c Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author, additional info from Vince Tilroe
    Late Bronze Age Armenia Noratus [RISE412] F 1193-945 BC

    U4c1a Allentoft 2015
    Late Bronze Age Armenia Kapan [RISE396] F 1192-937 calBCE (2879±31 BP)


    Allentoft 2015; Lazaridis 2016
    Late Bronze Age Armenia Norabak [RISE407] F 1115-895 BC

    H8a Allentoft 2015
    Late Bronze Age Armenia Kapan [RISE397] M 1048-855 BC R1b R1b1a2a2 (Y4371/Z8128) + downstream +Z2106 > PH4902+ > Y:18249219(A/C)+ CTS9219- on R1b1a2 Project tree T1a2 Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author + additional info from Sergey Malyshev
    Lake Urmia Iranian Azerbaijan Iron Age Mannean citadel Iran Tepe Hasanlu (F38) M 971-832 BC R1b1a2a2 – Z2103 N1a3a http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...oushaki.SM.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I see there is a shift from Caucasian to NE Europe and some Baloch.
    Would you think Armenian R1b-Z2103 came to Armenia through Iran, south of the Caspian?
    What about the supposed link between Armenian and Greek, which was allready in Greece with Mycenians?


    Armenia Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1407/ARE 12] M 4350-3700 BCE L1a L863+, L878+, M61+ (L), L656+, L1304+ (L1), P329+, M27+, M76+ (L1a). No calls were made for SNPs downstream of L1a H Lazaridis 2016

    Armenia Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1634/ARE 1/44] M 4330-3060 BCE L1a L863+, L878+, M61+ (L), L656+, M22+, L1304+ (L1), P329+, M27+, M76+ (L1a). No calls were made for SNPs downstream of L1a H2a1 Lazaridis 2016

    Armenia Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1631/ARE 1/43C] F 4250-4050 BCE

    K1a8 Lazaridis 2016

    Armenia Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1632/ARE 1/46] M 4230-4000 BCE L1a L878+, M185+, M11+, M61+, L855+ (L), L656+ (L1), P329+, M27+ (L1a) K1a8 Lazaridis 2016

    Armenia Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1409/ARE 20] F 4229-3985 BCE

    U4a Lazaridis 2016









    Kura-Araxes Armenia Talin [I1658 / TA3/R8] F 3347-3092 calBCE (4492±29 BP)

    U3a2 Lazaridis 2016
    Kura-Araxes Armenia Kalavan [I1633 / KA1/14] F 2619-2410 calBCE (3990±35 BP)

    H1u Lazaridis 2016
    Kura-Araxes Armenia Kalavan [I1635 / KA1/12] M 2619-2465 calBCE (4005±35 BP) R1b1-M415 (xM269) > genetiker R1b1a-CTS4244(xV88, P297)
    X2f Lazaridis 2016; revision
    Middle Bronze Age Armenia Nerquin Getashen [RISE416] M 1943-1445 BC E-M84 (Semitic subclade) Semargl @ Molgen K1a17a Allentoft 2015
    Middle Bronze Age Armenia Nerquin Getashen ; south of Lake Sevan ; related to Trialeti culture [RISE413] M 1906-1698 BC R1b R1b1 (M415/PF6251+ SK2063/FGC21034/V2197-, Y5586- FGC3890/Y11839-) T2c1f Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA pers. comm. from author + additional info from Felix Emmanuel and Vladimir Tagankin
    Middle Bronze Age Armenia Nerquin Getashen [RISE423] M 1402-1211 BC E1b E1b1b1b2a1a (L795) T2a Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author + add info from Steve Fix

    Armenia Katnaghbiur Kurgan 1
    [I1656/ Kat 16]
    F 1501-1402 calBCE (3168±27 BP)

    T1a1'3 Lazaridis 2016
    Late Bronze Age Armenia Norabak [RISE408] M 1209-1009 BC J2b J2b2a (Z588+ Z589+ Z590+ Z622+ Y1276+, Z590 + Z2515+, Z627-) I5c Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author, additional info from Vince Tilroe
    Late Bronze Age Armenia Noratus [RISE412] F 1193-945 BC

    U4c1a Allentoft 2015
    Late Bronze Age Armenia Kapan [RISE396] F 1192-937 calBCE (2879±31 BP)


    Allentoft 2015; Lazaridis 2016
    Late Bronze Age Armenia Norabak [RISE407] F 1115-895 BC

    H8a Allentoft 2015
    Late Bronze Age Armenia Kapan [RISE397] M 1048-855 BC R1b R1b1a2a2 (Y4371/Z8128) + downstream +Z2106 > PH4902+ > Y:18249219(A/C)+ CTS9219- on R1b1a2 Project tree T1a2 Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author + additional info from Sergey Malyshev
    Lake Urmia Iranian Azerbaijan Iron Age Mannean citadel Iran Tepe Hasanlu (F38) M 971-832 BC R1b1a2a2 – Z2103 N1a3a http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...oushaki.SM.pdf
    Seems clear that r1b-z2103 from lake urmia is the remanent of a yamnayan penetration. So if there is yamnayan in azerbaidjan there is yamnayan in anatolia...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I see there is a shift from Caucasian to NE Europe and some Baloch.
    Would you think Armenian R1b-Z2103 came to Armenia through Iran, south of the Caspian?
    What about the supposed link between Armenian and Greek, which was allready in Greece with Mycenians?
    You see what you want to see. There are samples with high NE Euro already in the Chalcolithic, especially I1409 (25.53% )
    while in LBA there is a sample with 59.95% Caucasian (RISE412).

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    You see what you want to see. There are samples with high NE Euro already in the Chalcolithic, especially I1409 (25.53% )
    while in LBA there is a sample with 59.95% Caucasian (RISE412).
    I think the Steppe penetration into Armenia was initiated in Chalcolithic around 4k BC. That would explain first and oldest split of Greek/Armenian and perhaps Tarim Basin guys from the rest of IEs. The rise412 can represent indigenous population who didn't mix with IEs, and is very close to modern Armenians.

    There is pretty good continuity of modern Armenians since CHG.

    M603839 M536324 I1658 Modern
    Kotias CHG 8 KYA Armenia EBA Armenian
    Run time 13.98 Run time 8.22 Run time
    S-Indian 0.62 S-Indian 0.27 S-Indian 1
    Baloch 36.63 Baloch 25.53 Baloch 20
    Caucasian 54.15 Caucasian 56.75 Caucasian 52
    NE-Euro 3.84 NE-Euro 4.79 NE-Euro 3
    SE-Asian 0.59 SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian 0.77 Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.15 Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American - American
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean - Mediterranean 5.88 Mediterranean 10
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian 6.45 SW-Asian 13
    San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy 0.25 Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 3.01 W-African 0.33 W-African

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think the Steppe penetration into Armenia was initiated in Chalcolithic around 4k BC. That would explain first and oldest split of Greek/Armenian and perhaps Tarim Basin guys from the rest of IEs. The rise412 can represent indigenous population who didn't mix with IEs, and is very close to modern Armenians.
    it makes sense to me
    that would be the time of expansion of R1a Srubnaya/Sintashta and the expulsion of R1b Yamna out of the steppe

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    Gedrosian admixture is linked with J2a from iran, a second bronze age wave from anatolia throught balkans even push them into british islands. Thats why people are so much confused they dont know how to seperate multiple migrations. All this has nothing to do with R1b or even CHG that lebrok wrongly think is born here, althought we know that CHG is related with ANE.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ahahahahah thats the new theory, indo-europeans going throught caucasus in armenia from there going in iran throught tarim basin... Yeah whatever !

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Gedrosian admixture is linked with J2a from iran, a second bronze age wave from anatolia throught balkans even push them into british islands. Thats why people are so much confused they dont know how to seperate multiple migrations. All this has nothing to do with R1b or even CHG that lebrok wrongly think is born here, althought we know that CHG is related with ANE.
    Maybe you have some skills to read among hen guts, concerning J2a in Britain? Could you develop your reasoning about ANE, CHG and Gedrosia; Perhaps it could help me to understand.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I apologize, guys! :)
    Last edited by davef; 24-09-17 at 21:00.

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    seriously, people fantasize over them for some reason.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    seriously, people fantasize over them for some reason.
    i don’t get it either. The fascination with Indo European’s.
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    ^ one upvote from me, bro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I know, right? Indo Europeans were probably just a bunch of 5'4 drooling morons who picked their noses, had huge ape like jaws, spoke in grunts, beat their women, and the stupid chariot that everyone lauds was invented by the lone "gifted" indo European with an IQ of 97 who spent days thinking about how to build one.
    There is absolutely no need for that kind of thing. None of our ancestors should be described in that way. Indeed, no group of humans should be described in that way. Cut it out or there will be consequences.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    i don’t get it either. The fascination with Indo European’s.
    When I first learned about the IE languages and their common origin, I was awed by how widespread the family was, how all these languages were originally one, it fascinates me to this very moment.

    I know and it saddens me that such an interesting topic was hijacked by the Nazis and their modern leftovers, their fantasies were built on old disproven pseudoscience, and it should be viewed as such.

    I think it's normal to be fascinated with a language family, whether alive or extinct, it tells a story, a story of the migration of peoples, it tells history. Another interest of mine is the Afro-Asiatic languages, combining linguistic and genetic evidence it seems likely that Afro-Asiatic originated in the Natufian culture and was spread to Africa by Levantine farmers, Ancient Egyptians, Cushites, Chads, Berbers, Semites and probably other extinct cultures were all descended from one linguistic community that lived in the early Neolithic villages of the ancient Levant, it is quite mythical really.

    Indo-European society was probably divided into three classes of Priests, Warrior Nobles, and Commoners. When an IE speaking tribe would "collide" with another group, and somehow assimilate them, their social pyramids also "combine", meaning that not all the newcomers are going to be warriors and not all the indigenous are going to be commoners, remember that the Mycenaean noble didn't differ much from the commoners, and J2a was also found among them, and the major ancestral component was Anatolian Neolithic, which means they intermarried with the population before them.

    They are an interesting group.

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