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Thread: G2a, Morocco

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-L91
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a

    Ethnic group
    Moroccan, North African
    Country: Germany



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    G2a, Morocco

    Hi guys! I have received my DNA test results a few months ago from AncestryDNA and, using a method detailed on Genetic Genealogist blog, managed to obtain my Y-DNA haplogroup from my raw DNA file (AncestryDNA results include Y chromosome analysis, but they do not give a prediction as to the Y-DNA haplogroup). The prediction was G2a (PF3148), which I believe is quite reliable considering that I found the results of 3 individuals from Morocco on an FTDNA database who had the same Y-haplogroup, and their results were even more specific as far the subclade is concerned, which was L91 (same as Ötzi the Iceman).

    The reason I believe the prediction to be quite reliable, is that, first, G is quite rare in Morocco, so I doubt there would be much variety in its Moroccan subclades, and second, that all three individuals had the family name Alaoui/Alawi, which is common among Moroccan people who claim to be descendants of Ali ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam. In fact, it is the family name of the royal family in Morocco. My family on my father's side has the same claim, and we have an old document detailing our paternal line, which meets the royal family's around 10 generations ago, and purportedly goes back all the way to Ali.

    I personally do not believe that we are truly descendants of Ali, since it is more likely that he would have J1 or J2 Y-haplogroup. In fact, I saw several groups on the Internet which attempt to compile data about Quraishi lineages (Quraish was the tribe to which Muhammad and Ali belonged), especially Hashemite (sons of Hashem, an ancestor of Muhammad and Ali), and Alawites. All of these groups agree that Quraishi lineages belong to J1 or J2.

    But I'm not as interested in Quraishi lineages, as I am in knowing more about the origin of the Alawite ancestry myth in Morocco. My father's family is from Tafilalt, which is the region where it is claimed that some "descendants of Ali" migrated around 1000 years ago, from the city of Yanbu in Saudi Arabia. This might not be impossible in theory, but from what I understand L91 seems very common in Europe, but not at all in Saudi Arabia, which makes me think that my paternal ancestors likely came from Europe rather than the Middle East.

    What do you think?

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    Naim

    Quote Originally Posted by Ideophagous View Post
    Hi guys! I have received my DNA test results a few months ago from AncestryDNA and, using a method detailed on Genetic Genealogist blog, managed to obtain my Y-DNA haplogroup from my raw DNA file (AncestryDNA results include Y chromosome analysis, but they do not give a prediction as to the Y-DNA haplogroup). The prediction was G2a (PF3148), which I believe is quite reliable considering that I found the results of 3 individuals from Morocco on an FTDNA database who had the same Y-haplogroup, and their results were even more specific as far the subclade is concerned, which was L91 (same as Ötzi the Iceman).

    The reason I believe the prediction to be quite reliable, is that, first, G is quite rare in Morocco, so I doubt there would be much variety in its Moroccan subclades, and second, that all three individuals had the family name Alaoui/Alawi, which is common among Moroccan people who claim to be descendants of Ali ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam. In fact, it is the family name of the royal family in Morocco. My family on my father's side has the same claim, and we have an old document detailing our paternal line, which meets the royal family's around 10 generations ago, and purportedly goes back all the way to Ali.

    I personally do not believe that we are truly descendants of Ali, since it is more likely that he would have J1 or J2 Y-haplogroup. In fact, I saw several groups on the Internet which attempt to compile data about Quraishi lineages (Quraish was the tribe to which Muhammad and Ali belonged), especially Hashemite (sons of Hashem, an ancestor of Muhammad and Ali), and Alawites. All of these groups agree that Quraishi lineages belong to J1 or J2.

    But I'm not as interested in Quraishi lineages, as I am in knowing more about the origin of the Alawite ancestry myth in Morocco. My father's family is from Tafilalt, which is the region where it is claimed that some "descendants of Ali" migrated around 1000 years ago, from the city of Yanbu in Saudi Arabia. This might not be impossible in theory, but from what I understand L91 seems very common in Europe, but not at all in Saudi Arabia, which makes me think that my paternal ancestors likely came from Europe rather than the Middle East.

    What do you think?
    Hi I m Alaoui. And my family for the most part still live near and around mdaghra tafilat. And I have received the same results in term if Y dna. It would be interesting to discover where our paternal line is from. Aparantly our particular line is mostly founf in central south Italy as well as in Sardinia...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ideophagous View Post
    Hi guys! I have received my DNA test results a few months ago (...)
    Salutare! Si eu sunt G2a.
    I think the haplogroup Y only says less than 1% of our true origin. The G haplogroup is widespread, even in small percentages, on more than half of the globe, Europe-Asia-Africa .... Same as R1b for example, in large proportins even in Sub-Saharan Africa! But this tell almost anything about our real true ancestors.
    Can you post about your autosomal result ?
    p.s.
    G2a (PF3148) was discovered in 7000-8000 years old remain in Serbia-Romania-Germany... ;)

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    The thing is G2A L91 is very rare in Morocco. And quasi limited to the Alaoui clan that claims descent from Hassan El Dakhil who was brought to Morocco as a child a couple of centuries ago and presented to the local population as being a descendant of the prophet of Islam. Now this claim maybe false. The point is that the king of Morocco is an Alaoui. Therefore it would be interesting to determine what is the Alaoui paternal lineage just for the sake of it. And that could be done indirectly through the analysis of the dna of members of the alaoui clan who are loosly connected to the royal family. For example my family tree separates from the actual king line, 10 generations ago. Also the claim of being descendant of the prophet is central in legitimizing the rule of the curent king. Therefore if one could isolate the alaoui y hallogroup. One could try to locate the origine of the tribe and by doing so proving or disproving the alaoui's claim to the throne of Morocco on the basis of their suposed linj to the prophet.

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    you search alan people who migrated nort africa with vandals.

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    From what I read Allan people are not G2A L91... and also vandals invasion didnt have any long standing effect on the dna makeshift of north africa. Furthemore all morrocan who are g2a4 share a family history of being descendant of one man who came to morroco in the 14th century.

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    The man name was hassan dakhil. There is an article about him in wikipedia.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-L91
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a

    Ethnic group
    Moroccan, North African
    Country: Germany



    Hey guys! So my brother did the test on 23andme, and confirmed 100% that we are on the G-L91 line.

    Quote Originally Posted by naimbellemare View Post
    Hi I m Alaoui. And my family for the most part still live near and around mdaghra tafilat. And I have received the same results in term if Y dna. It would be interesting to discover where our paternal line is from. Aparantly our particular line is mostly founf in central south Italy as well as in Sardinia...
    Hey Cousin!
    Most of my father's cousins still live in Tafilalt as well. I would be interested to see if there's a subclade of G-L91 that characterizes our clan, or at least close enough (let's say until 2000 years ago), so we can trace the migration path of our ancestors.
    I have so far seen two theories as to our origins. One is that our paternal ancestors may have come with the bearers of the Cardial Culture 9000 to 7000 years ago, from Anatolia to North Africa. The second one is that during or after the fall of Andalusia, some ancestor of ours who came from there may have settled in Tafilalt and claimed to be descended from Ali. The two theories are not mutually exclusive. It could be that our ancestors moved thousands of years ago to Southern Europe then to Iberia, converted to Islam after North Africans conquered Andalusia, became Arabized afterwards, moved to North Africa and specifically to Tafilalt claiming Alawite ancestry (the claim may have originated with an older ancestor though), seized power based on that claim, and the rest is history.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-L91
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a

    Ethnic group
    Moroccan, North African
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    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    Salutare! Si eu sunt G2a.
    I think the haplogroup Y only says less than 1% of our true origin. The G haplogroup is widespread, even in small percentages, on more than half of the globe, Europe-Asia-Africa .... Same as R1b for example, in large proportins even in Sub-Saharan Africa! But this tell almost anything about our real true ancestors.
    Salut, vărul meu!
    Yes, it's just the paternal line. But over a whole population it gives you a good idea about its origins and migration path. This how we know for example that the Arabization of North Africa was mainly a cultural rather than a demographic phenomenon. Egypt was completely Arabized, but its people are directly descended from the pyramid builders. Their culture simply went from Greek-Coptic in the Late Antiquity to Arabic, but this didn't happen overnight. It took several centuries of Islamization and Arabization.

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    Hi cousin,
    I also have a theory about our origins which is a little bit simpler. I think that being G2A proves that our paternal line proves that we are not Amazigh (paternal line), which in itself is a big thing. The fact that G2A is very rare in morocco also supports the theory that we are the descendant of a foreigner. In this case the history tells us that the name of the foreigner is Hassan A Dakhil who is burried in Rissani. The fact that we are two Alaouis with the same family history and the same paternal line proves that this guy is real. Now the question becomes where Did Hassan a Dakhil come from? The tradition says that he is from Yanbou3 a nakhl close to El Medina. Maybe it is a legend but when you look at the middle east haplotype composition G2A including L91 is represented in statisticaly significant proportions of plalestinians, egyptians and Lebanese... On the other hand I read about an Indonesian clan of chorfa called the Ba’ Alawi and evidences suggest that they belong to Haplogroup G... Think about it, maybe you carry whitin yourself something bigger than some hispanic refugees... who by the way came much latter to North Africa... Hassan a Dakhil predates the reconquista by at least 2 centuries.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by naimbellemare View Post
    Hi cousin,
    I also have a theory about our origins which is a little bit simpler. I think that being G2A proves that our paternal line proves that we are not Amazigh (paternal line), which in itself is a big thing.
    Not necessarily. Many ethnicities are not associated with a single paternal haplogroup. While E-M81 is the most dominating Amazigh haplogroup, indicating an old massive migration into the region from East Africa, it is not the only one, and many old migrations from Europe and the Middle East have brought other haplogroups thousands of years ago, such as subclades of R1b, J1 and J2. Our Y-haplogroup G2a-L91 could be one of those, especially since it's found in the West-Mediterranean in samples that are thousands of years old.

    In other words, our paternal ancestors may have come to North Africa thousands of years ago, and they and their descendants would have participated in the creation of the Amazigh culture itself, making them full-fledged Amazigh, despite the rarity of their Y-haplogroup among their kin.

    They may also have, as I speculated above, come from Iberia after the Reconquista, and settled in the Tafilalt region. They surely may not have been Amazigh, but their descendants (us included) would have mixed with the Amazigh heavily, making Amazigh ancestry and culture part of us in every sense possible. Proof of that is that autosomally we are not in any way different from the average Moroccan. I personally got 83% North African on FTDNA, and only 4% Middle East, and other Alawite results I have seen are similar. This also makes it less likely that we have come from the Middle East, since it was common in our clan in the past to marry other Alawites to "preserve the blood". You would expect a higher "Middle East", especially "Arab" percentage in the autosomal results in that case.


    The fact that G2A is very rare in morocco also supports the theory that we are the descendant of a foreigner.
    True, but the timeline is not clear. More testing is needed to distinguish the Moroccan Alawite clan from the rest of G2a-L91, so we can have a better idea when the migration of our paternal ancestors to Tafilalt came to be, and the path of that migration.


    In this case the history tells us that the name of the foreigner is Hassan A Dakhil who is burried in Rissani. The fact that we are two Alaouis with the same family history and the same paternal line proves that this guy is real.
    It proves that a common paternal ancestor (or clan of ancestors) exists between all Moroccan Alawites, but we should not just accept any story that was woven around Al-Hassan Ad-Dakhil or his clan. Let's not forget that our ancestors ruled the kingdom of Sijilmassa as princes and Imams, and an offshoot of Alawites conquered the rest of the country and is ruling there until today (shout-out to our distant cousin Mohamed VI). There are many political advantages to spreading stories about a man who descends from Ali ibn Abi Talib, and has the "aura of the house of the prophet". Let's not forget all the political pretenders who made similar claims, or claimed to be "Al Mahdi Al Muntadhar", a kind of messiah who would come at the end of times.

    The authorities would never allow it, but if a sample from the grave of Al-Hassan Ad-Dakhil were to be taken and analyzed, we could at least confirm if the person laying there is our direct ancestor or not.

    Now the question becomes where Did Hassan a Dakhil come from? The tradition says that he is from Yanbou3 a nakhl close to El Medina. Maybe it is a legend but when you look at the middle east haplotype composition G2A including L91 is represented in statisticaly significant proportions of plalestinians, egyptians and Lebanese...
    First of all, those places are far from Yanbu in Saudi Arabia. What are Qureishi people doing people away from their home place, and why was there no one else left of them there? Remember that Alawites themselves are just an offshoot of Qureish tribe, whose members should share the same paternal ancestry according to history. So either history is incorrect, and Ali was actually unrelated to Qureish by blood, or G2a-L91 has nothing to do with Qureish or the Alawites.
    There's an easy way to test the Yanbu hypothesis. Check if there are or were people in Yanbu who claimed Alawite ancestry. If true, find a person, dead or alive who is highly likely to be from that clan, and preferably several people to have a statistically good sample. If not true, that already weakens the hypothesis, but we can still get a random sample from people, both dead and alive. Then do the Y-haplogroup test, and compare results.

    On the other hand I read about an Indonesian clan of chorfa called the Ba’ Alawi and evidences suggest that they belong to Haplogroup G...
    Which G subclade? Anything other than G2a-L91 would make them unrelated to us by paternal ancestry by at least 10000 years. You should also consider the possibility of migration in the opposite direction.

    Think about it, maybe you carry whitin yourself something bigger than some hispanic refugees... who by the way came much latter to North Africa... Hassan a Dakhil predates the reconquista by at least 2 centuries.
    The Reconquista was not an event, but a slow process of retaking Iberian lands by Christian kingdoms that spanned several centuries. Al Hassan Ad-Dakhil's migration could have happened any time during that period.

    -------------------------------------------

    To end all of this, here's a truth bomb: the haplogroup of the former Iraqi and current Jordanian royal families is known, and it's a branch of J1-L859, which makes total sense since Arabs mostly are under J1. Case closed (pretty much).

    From the famous individuals page:

    The Hashemites are the royal family of the Hejaz (1916–1925), Iraq (1921–1958), and Jordan (1921–present). The family belongs to the Dhawu Awn, one of the branches of the Hasanid Sharifs of Mecca – also referred to as Hashemites – who ruled Mecca continuously from the 10th century until its conquest by the House of Saud in 1924. Their eponymous ancestor is Hashim ibn Abd Manaf, great-grandfather of the Islamic prophet, Muhammad. The Arab DNA forums and DNA Project admins reported that two test results of members of the Jordanian royal family (private kits) are positive for L859 mutation under haplogroup J1.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    Salutare! Si eu sunt G2a.
    Can you post about your autosomal result ?
    I don't like the subdivision on FTDNA but here you go:
    North Africa: 83%
    Southern Europe: 9%
    East Middle East: 3%
    East Central Africa: 2%
    West Africa : 2%

    I can share results from other platforms as well (AncestryDNA, MyHeritage, Gedmatch, etc).

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    I find your comments very interesting. But I'd like to ask you a question. How do you know Qureysh are J1?

    From what I understand Qureysh werent considered as pure arabs by their contemporaries. They even referred to themselves as "mou3araba" in opposition to pure Arabs whose roots are from Yemen.

    About Yanbou3, Ali's center of power (the same was true for his followers) was Medina... Yanbou3 is the port of Madina, so it makes sense that descendant of the prophets leaved in Madina, Yanbou3 was also the port through which came in most of the hojaj coming from the west. Also we need to be very careful regarding the geography of Islam. As there are new theories based on archaeological evidence that suggest that Mecca is not the birth place of Islam but It is rather Becca (Petra) that is the real birth place of Islam. (look up Dan Gibson documentary: the holly city).

    You are right about the fact that Hassan Dakhil could have come from anywhere. However you can't just come and pretend to be a descendant from the prophet. It is highly possible that the people of Tafilalt who were involved in international trade knew the difference between a moresco and a middle eastener. So I agree that Hassan may not have been a descendant of the prophet, but I'm convinced that he is from the Middle East. Furthemore according to history, Hassan was brought to Morocco by a delegation composed of notables from Tafillat who were on their way to the Haj.

    Regarding your FTDNA, it makes sense that the Amazigh portion is higher because there is only one guy who came from the levant (A Dakhil) and his descendants married into the local population for generations.

    You know what would be interesting? Is to go and test people who claim being descendant of the prophet in many parts of the world and verify if they have a comon Y lineage... This would be the basis of a great documentary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by naimbellemare View Post
    I find your comments very interesting. But I'd like to ask you a question. How do you know Qureysh are J1?
    Several DNA projects you can find online of Qureish descendants seem to confirm that (just Google "Quraysh DNA project").

    From what I understand Qureysh werent considered as pure arabs by their contemporaries. They even referred to themselves as "mou3araba" in opposition to pure Arabs whose roots are from Yemen.
    J1 is a Middle Eastern Y-haplogroup, and it originated more than 20000 years ago. It includes not only Arabs, but many other old and current populations such as Sumerians and Persians. You can even find J1 among Europeans from very old migrations that date back to the agricultural revolution, way before "Arabs" were defined as a group and culture.
    So, while Qureish may have originally descended from a non-Arab paternal line, they could still have J1. The presumed patriarch of Qureish called Adnan, who is supposed to be a descendant of Ismail son of Abraham would be likely of Sumerian or Akkadian origin (since Abraham, if he existed as the stories claim, was from the city of Ur in Iraq).

    That being said, since Qureish were at the onset of Arab culture itself, one cannot say that they are not "pure Arabs" even if it was claimed that they weren't.

    About Yanbou3, Ali's center of power (the same was true for his followers) was Medina... Yanbou3 is the port of Madina, so it makes sense that descendant of the prophets leaved in Madina, Yanbou3 was also the port through which came in most of the hojaj coming from the west.
    I think he moved to Iraq after the Fitna started, and that's where he died.

    Also we need to be very careful regarding the geography of Islam. As there are new theories based on archaeological evidence that suggest that Mecca is not the birth place of Islam but It is rather Becca (Petra) that is the real birth place of Islam. (look up Dan Gibson documentary: the holly city).
    Yes, I watched that documentary, as well as "Islam: the untold story" by Tom Holland. There are still many mysteries surrounding the true origins of Islam, and I think DNA testing will help uncover many of them.

    However you can't just come and pretend to be a descendant from the prophet.
    If you have enough authority, be it religious or military, you can. It's not that hard to fool the common people.

    It is highly possible that the people of Tafilalt who were involved in international trade knew the difference between a moresco and a middle eastener. So I agree that Hassan may not have been a descendant of the prophet, but I'm convinced that he is from the Middle East. Furthemore according to history, Hassan was brought to Morocco by a delegation composed of notables from Tafillat who were on their way to the Haj.
    Yes, that could be. But our DNA seems to be indicating otherwise. Let's also not forget that history is written by the winners. If the Alawites had lost the struggle for power over Morocco, we would now be reading about some people who claimed to be descendant of Muhammad, but were only pretenders. Just like we read now about the Fatimids (probably of Amazigh origin) and the Abbassids (probably of Persian origin), since they're not in power anymore.


    You know what would be interesting? Is to go and test people who claim being descendant of the prophet in many parts of the world and verify if they have a comon Y lineage... This would be the basis of a great documentary
    Indeed it would be! There are many who claim to be descendants of Muhammad, and they don't all have the same Y-haplogroups, so definitely a few of them are delusional (I wouldn't say that they're lying, since usually these myths are inherited in the family, and people simply believe them).

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    Lol, I just wrote a long reply that just disappeared when I tried to post it.

    In short you are convinced that Qureysh are J1 based on DNA projects. Brother you can't use those as evidence :) It is really unreliable.

    I read your comments carefully and this is the extend of our knowledge, anything more is speculation:

    1 Do we have a typical Amazigh Y Haplogroup: No
    2 Does our Y Haplogroup exist in Morocco in significant proportions: No - 0.5%
    3 Do we share a consistent Y Haplogroup among Alaouis of Morocco: Yes
    4 Do we know what is the haplogroup of the prophet: No
    5 Does G2A exists in significant proportion in the middle east: Yes
    6 Does G2A exists in significant proportion in Europe: Yes

    Further investigations are needed, until then, we have to wait!



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    Quote Originally Posted by naimbellemare View Post
    Lol, I just wrote a long reply that just disappeared when I tried to post it.
    I always copy my answer as I write it, if it's longer than 2 lines, just in case.

    In short you are convinced that Qureysh are J1 based on DNA projects. Brother you can't use those as evidence :) It is really unreliable.
    I'm not convinced, but it seems to make a lot of sense given the dominant Arab haplogroups (always under J1), and Quraysh itself is not a small clan, but a big tribe with several related clans, of whom the Umeyyads ruled for about a century after Islam. Think of all the DNA they must have spread with their many wives and concubines.
    Add to that, as I mentioned above, that the Jordanian and Iraqi royal families have been tested as well, both of whom claim or claimed Hashemite ancestry, and they fall under J1 too.
    See "Famous Individuals page" https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/fam...plogroup.shtml

    I read your comments carefully and this is the extend of our knowledge, anything more is speculation:

    1 Do we have a typical Amazigh Y Haplogroup: No
    There is. It's E-M81. It's just not the only one. Most people of Amazigh origin would have E-M81 though, more than 80% in Morocco according to this page.

    2 Does our Y Haplogroup exist in Morocco in significant proportions: No - 0.5%
    Agreed.

    3 Do we share a consistent Y Haplogroup among Alaouis of Morocco: Yes
    Agreed.

    4 Do we know what is the haplogroup of the prophet: No
    Agreed.

    5 Does G2A exists in significant proportion in the middle east: Yes
    I disagree here, or rather I think this is irrelevant. It's not G2a that you should ask about, but specifically G2a-L91. This subclade is old enough (5000-9000 years), that any other branch of G2a is not relevant to our main question (concerning the paternal origin of our clan in the last 1000-2000 years). Look at the G_Arabia page on FTDNA for example. You will see that G2a-L91 (Ötzi branch) is only present in Morocco and Algeria. Two of the Moroccans indicate that they are Alaoui, while the third one did not specify.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults


    6 Does G2A exists in significant proportion in Europe: Yes
    Yes, specifically G2a-L91 (found mainly in the West-Mediterranean), which is relevant to our quest.

    Further investigations are needed, until then, we have to wait!



    Couldn't agree more! I'm hoping more SNPs will be discovered that will shed light on our paternal origins, and allow us to learn more about the recent migration path of our paternal ancestors.

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