(NEW) GenePlaza K12 Ancient Calculator Results

[Pax Augusta]

My dad says it's from frosinone but I'm still skeptical. But thanks to my second cousin of 3/4 south Italian 1/8 Irish 1/8 English descent (she scored 80 percent Italy/Greece from ancestry), I'm convinced that my Italian heritage is south Italian .

Frosinone and Latina province (southern Lazio) are a transitional area between central and southern Italy. For example the province of Frosinone was established by Royal Decree on 6 December 1926 with territories belonging to Lazio (central Italy) and to Campania (south Italy). A vast part of Frosinone and Latina province was under the Kingdom of Naples for centuries and they still today speak southern Italian dialects. There are many Italian-Americans who have roots in Frosinone, they think their ancestors were central Italian (because now province of Frosinone is all in the Lazio region) but instead their ancestors were often southern Italians until 1926. Angela can explain it better than me.

 

[davef]

Frosinone and Latina province (southern Lazio) are a transitional area between central and southern Italy. For example the province of Frosinone was established by Royal Decree on 6 December 1926 with territories belonging to Lazio (central Italy) and to Campania (south Italy). A vast part of Frosinone and Latina province was under the Kingdom of Naples for centuries and they still today speak southern Italian dialects. There are many Italian-Americans who have roots in Frosinone, they think their ancestors were central Italian (because now province of Frosinone is all in the Lazio region) but instead their ancestors were often southern Italians until 1926. Angela can explain it better than me.

Thanks! Very interesting.
@Angela,
Sorry, I wasn't going for mathematical precision. I meant 95 percent as "a huge portion" if you get my drift.
Then again I failed to notice the huge difference in the eastern farmer until just now, you're 8 points ahead in that category (and he does have that extra hunter gatherer that isn't showing in your results).

 

[Angela]

Frosinone and Latina province (southern Lazio) are a transitional area between central and southern Italy. For example the province of Frosinone was established by Royal Decree on 6 December 1926 with territories belonging to Lazio (central Italy) and to Campania (south Italy). A vast part of Frosinone and Latina province was under the Kingdom of Naples for centuries and they still today speak southern Italian dialects. There are many Italian-Americans who have roots in Frosinone, they think their ancestors were central Italian (because now province of Frosinone is all in the Lazio region) but instead their ancestors were often southern Italians until 1926. Angela can explain it better than me.

I couldn't do better than that. Italian-Americans from this area are indeed usually confused about their ancestry. They don't realize, for example, that they speak a southern Italian dialect. The same kind of confusion exists for Abruzzesi.

It's been known from genetics papers dating back six or more years that the genetic break in Italy runs just south of Rome. It's also becoming clear that people like Cavalli/Sforza were correct, and there is more genetic variation in that Rome to the Alps area than there is between southern Italians/Sicilians. I think some of that is differences in migrations, but I also think drift has some part to play.

 

[Jovialis]

I couldn't do better than that. Italian-Americans from this area are indeed usually confused about their ancestry. They don't realize, for example, that they speak a southern Italian dialect. The same kind of confusion exists for Abruzzesi.

It's been known from genetics papers dating back six or more years that the genetic break in Italy runs just south of Rome. It's also becoming clear that people like Cavalli/Sforza were correct, and there is more genetic variation in that Rome to the Alps area than there is between southern Italians/Sicilians. I think some of that is differences in migrations, but I also think drift has some part to play.

Not always, for example, my mother's family always knew they had some type of relation to Greeks. Than again, they've only been here since the 1970s.

 

[Angela]

Not always, for example, my mother's family always knew they had some type of relation to Greeks. Than again, they've only been here since the 1970s.

I was speaking specifically about the fact that Italian-Americans from certain parts of geographic "Central Italy" are not aware that geography or sometimes even political divisions, and genes, culture, language, don't necessarily correlate in this area.

More generally, in terms of the amount of information people have about their ancestry, it makes a huge difference whether one's ancestors came in the 1970s versus 1912 or even before.

Still, most southern Italians do know that they are tied to the Greeks. Even my husband, who didn't know the towns from which his Calabrian ancestors came, only that they were in the province of Reggio Calabria, knew that some of them had been Greek speaking until fairly recently. More generally, just from learning World History, he knew about Magna Graecia and the shared history in southern Italy in general.

Even then, there are differences from family to family. The more literate the family was even in those early periods the more information they had.

Then, certain information has only become available recently in terms of genetics, and so the interpretation of history has changed.

My father, who comes from an area that is 70-80% R1b U-152, was convinced he didn't have any ancestry from north of the Alps. Those Celts and Lombards either got sent back where they came from or were limited to benighted areas in the Alps. Part of that was propaganda from the Mussolini era. Nowadays, with the negative feelings about the Near Eastern and North African immigration, some Italians have unfortunately tried to distance themselves from these types of people by becoming Nordicists of one variety or another, and trying to inflate and celebrate their "northern" ancestry. My father must be spinning in his grave.

 

[MsJ]

The African is 1.8 percent E. African.

I think these numbers may be typical for someone of mixed European ancestry, because those on the forum that are similar ancestral background blends have somewhat similar numbers.
Based on my family tree being mainly German/Dutch and British Isles with a few unknown elements, I can't argue

I'm still trying to get a line on my Mongolian spots and other "Asian" physical features but still no smoking gun.

 

[Jovialis]

I was speaking specifically about the fact that Italian-Americans from certain parts of geographic "Central Italy" are not aware that geography or sometimes even political divisions, and genes, culture, language, don't necessarily correlate in this area.

More generally, in terms of the amount of information people have about their ancestry, it makes a huge difference whether one's ancestors came in the 1970s versus 1912 or even before.

Still, most southern Italians do know that they are tied to the Greeks. Even my husband, who didn't know the towns from which his Calabrian ancestors came, only that they were in the province of Reggio Calabria, knew that some of them had been Greek speaking until fairly recently. More generally, just from learning World History, he knew about Magna Graecia and the shared history in southern Italy in general.

Even then, there are differences from family to family. The more literate the family was even in those early periods the more information they had.

Then, certain information has only become available recently in terms of genetics, and so the interpretation of history has changed.

My father, who comes from an area that is 70-80% R1b U-152, was convinced he didn't have any ancestry from north of the Alps. Those Celts and Lombards either got sent back where they came from or were limited to benighted areas in the Alps. Part of that was propaganda from the Mussolini era. Nowadays, with the negative feelings about the Near Eastern and North African immigration, some Italians have unfortunately tried to distance themselves from these types of people by becoming Nordicists of one variety or another, and trying to inflate and celebrate their "northern" ancestry. My father must be spinning in his grave.

Ah, I see, I misread your post.

In regards to nordicism in Italy, a lot of that was actually promoted by Giulio Cogni, who borrowed a lot from Nazi racial theories. Also, Giulio Evola, who promoted the idea of mystic Aryanism / Spiritual Nordicism. These were competing ideology to Giuseppe Sergi's Mediterraneanism. Of which there was disagreement within the Fascist party, with the High Council supporting the Mediterraneanists, vs Evola and other nordicist figures.

Anyway, this would probably be more appropriate for another thread.

EDIT:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...onessus/page26?p=518984&viewfull=1#post518984

This PCA I found confirms the Abruzzi being more southern. Also, there's some other examples of geography not matching up with genetics.

 

[Aha]

My result. Kyivan Ukrainian with Lithuanian Y-dna.

 

[I1a3_Young]

The British, Dutch, and Swiss are showing drastically less Scythian while Slavs and Bulgarians are showing equal mixes (or so) of Steppe.

The Scythians clearly had a large impact on eastern Europe as far as Poland and N. Italy. The Celtic IE expansion had already happened by that point but this demonstrates how complicated the large scale transformation of Europe's genetics could be. Thousands of years of movement was mixed with a couple large scale expansions of dominant tribes.

The puzzling part is Scandinavians scoring Scythian as well, similar to Slavs.

 

[LeBrok]

The British, Dutch, and Swiss are showing drastically less Scythian while Slavs and Bulgarians are showing equal mixes (or so) of Steppe.

The Scythians clearly had a large impact on eastern Europe as far as Poland and N. Italy. The Celtic IE expansion had already happened by that point but this demonstrates how complicated the large scale transformation of Europe's genetics could be. Thousands of years of movement was mixed with a couple large scale expansions of dominant tribes.

The puzzling part is Scandinavians scoring Scythian as well, similar to Slavs.

Because it didn't really happen. I think they confuse common origin, like Yamnaya in this case, with direct ancestry.

 

[Aaron1981]

Hmmm, what will you get when you pull Neolithic Iran/CHG genes from Yamnaya-Afansievo? What's left is pure EHG genes, not the BA Steppe Culture. You can't measure Yamnaya without Iran/CHG in it!
When you measure farmer genes on one side, you should measure h-gs on the other. Not the mixed cultures like Steppe BA or even Iron Age like in case of Scythians.
Likewise when you measure Steppe Cultures, you should compare them to their contemporaries. Like BA Hungary or Balkans or BA Levant.

You're not looking at the data correctly. You absolutely can break Yamnaya apart from CHG. Europeans don't descend form CHG as an isolate, at least not by much, but they do descend from a composite population similar to Yamnaya, Andronovo, and Karasuk to a lesser extent (Some relative of CHG + European Hunter Gatherers). Middle Eastern populations will have stronger affinity to CHG because they descend from cultures derived from CHG and other closely related populations to CHG such as Iran_Neolithic. THe latter populations have absolutely nothing to do with the Steppe hunter gatherer populations and are probably separated by about 45,000 years or more to the steppe ones. (If we use WHG as a baseline, but I suppose it could be less, but probably greater than 24,000 (ANE))

 

[LeBrok]

You're not looking at the data correctly. You absolutely can break Yamnaya apart from CHG. Europeans don't descend form CHG as an isolate, at least not by much, but they do descend from a composite population similar to Yamnaya, Andronovo, and Karasuk to a lesser extent (Some relative of CHG + European Hunter Gatherers). Middle Eastern populations will have stronger affinity to CHG because they descend from cultures derived from CHG and other closely related populations to CHG such as Iran_Neolithic. THe latter populations have absolutely nothing to do with the Steppe hunter gatherer populations and are probably separated by about 45,000 years or more to the steppe ones. (If we use WHG as a baseline, but I suppose it could be less, but probably greater than 24,000 (ANE))

You lost me. Which point of mine you are trying to disprove?

 

[Ghani]

The puzzling part is Scandinavians scoring Scythian as well, similar to Slavs.

I read Somewhere that some Uralics have Karasuk related ancestry

 

[elghund]

I thought the neolithic Western European farmers (4000-5000 kya) were the descendants of East Euorpen farmers (5000-8000 kya) via the demic model. Was there another population bottleneck that allowed further differentiation between the western and eastern European farmers or did these groups originate from separate populations in the Levant >8000 kya.

 

[Ghani]

I thought the neolithic Western European farmers (4000-5000 kya) were the descendants of East Euorpen farmers (5000-8000 kya) via the demic model. .

Looks like it, since they are so similar to each other

 

[Angela]

there seems to have been a split in the stream of farmers into Europe, one of which took the route into Europe up through the Balkans, and one of which departed by sea and took the northern Mediterranean route. The latter is Cardial, Impressa.

There are those who hold that the split occurred somewhere in Greece, and so the groups would have been largely similar. Others think there might have been some differences even if the original departure point was the same, somewhere around where present day Anatolia meets the very northern part of Syria.

There's a lot of discussion here on the topic. Just use the search engine.

 

[Ghani]

Others think there might have been some differences even if the original departure point was the same, somewhere around where present day Anatolia meets the very northern part of Syria.

This scenario makes sense in lieu of a few west and south Asians scoring a little higher W European Farmer than E European with this calculator

 

[noman]

@Angela:

I see you are commenting over people's results. Care to comment on mine?

 

[Angela]

@Angela:

I see you are commenting over people's results. Care to comment on mine?

Of course, noman, if you wish it, and for what it's worth.

Either post your results here or send them to me by PM if you wish it to be private.

 

[LeBrok]

Looks like it, since they are so similar to each other

Eastern Farmers were genetically influenced by Anatolia chalcolithic-Bronze Age cultures full of Caucasian and SW Asian admixtures.


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