(NEW) GenePlaza K12 Ancient Calculator Results

[matadworf]

I think it's quite good, actually. I wish I could copy paste the map provided by the creator . It shows, as I said upthread, that the Eastern farmer is indeed not only LBK; it's also Anatolian farmer. It would have come into Italy both from central Europe by means of the northeastern corridor under the Alps, and perhaps directly across the Adriatic, or with Bronze Age movements. The Western European farmer is more Impressa/Cardial, I think, with its incorporated WHG, and the movement of Beaker type farmers into southern France and northern Italy, i.e. the genomes before the arrival of the steppe peoples. I think this is why I always get such high Iberian on calculators based on modern populations. In fact, in some calculators I'm a mix of Iberian and Thessalian, i.e. northern Greece.

View attachment 9125

I'm still trying to make sense of the substructure in steppe. Perhaps it's because Yamnaya and Andronovo are north of the Alps movements, which would perhaps mean not much of it made it's way into Italy? There was a big settlement of Alans in central into northern Italy, which I used to "blame" for the 2% East Asian/Korean that I habitually get in some calculators. However, I think it's more likely that this breakdown highlights the different "waves" from the steppe, Yamnaya, then Andronovo like, then more "eastern" like. Wasn't Bronze Age 2 sample like that, with more "eastern", Caucasus like ancestry. Some of my Caucasus is "cloaked" in there.

You know, that's very interesting: does some of the "Caucasus" in northern Italy come from slightly different and "later" steppe people?

@matadworf,
Did you do this a while ago? Someone told me they got some weird results at first, but they changed and made more sense later. Maybe you might want to check it again?

Anyway, my slightly more western and slightly "northern" shift makes sense, I think, even with these results.

@ Angela. Just did it today. Was there something odd about my results? Thanks

 

[Angela]

@ Angela. Just did it today. Was there something odd about my results? Thanks

Not weird as in wrong, of course, or bad. I apologize if it came across that way. I just didn't expect any African to show up in mainland Greece. I would have thought even the East African would have disappeared by now. I don't understand the southeast Eurasian either. I normally see it as a trace of the South Asian in some steppe ancestry. Perhaps that's what happened. You just happen to have kept a trace of it.

Still, I'd wait a day or so and maybe try it again.

 

[Carl Graham]

Me :

ANCIENT FARMERS 50.0%

WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 28.9%

LEVANT (4000-8000 years) 4.7%

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)2.2%

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years) 14.3%

.................................................. .................................................. .............


STEPPE CULTURES 35.3%

KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years) 4.5%

ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years) 18.1%

YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 12.7%


.................................................. .................................................. .........................
and

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)14.7%

AFRICAN 0.0%
EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern)0.0%
SOUTHEAST EURASIAN 0.0%

 

[Angela]

Me :

ANCIENT FARMERS 50.0%

WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 28.9%

LEVANT (4000-8000 years) 4.7%

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)2.2%

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years) 14.3%

.................................................. .................................................. .............


STEPPE CULTURES 35.3%

KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years) 4.5%

ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years) 18.1%

YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 12.7%


.................................................. .................................................. .........................
and

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)14.7%

AFRICAN 0.0%
EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern)0.0%
SOUTHEAST EURASIAN 0.0%

I'm assuming mostly British Isles ancestry?

 

[Carl Graham]

I'm assuming mostly British Isles ancestry?

As far as known all but a tiny remote smidgen of German.

 

[matadworf]

Not weird as in wrong, of course, or bad. I apologize if it came across that way. I just didn't expect any African to show up in mainland Greece. I would have thought even the East African would have disappeared by now. I don't understand the southeast Eurasian either. I normally see it as a trace of the South Asian in some steppe ancestry. Perhaps that's what happened. You just happen to have kept a trace of it.
Still, I'd wait a day or so and maybe try it again.

Oh no it didn't come across that way at all. I appreciate the insights. I asked the same question of the calculator's creator about the SE asian component but didn't hear back. He did mention something about 23 and Me data being a bit more accurate than Ancestry for SE Asian. Yes the East African is strange and nothing of the sort has shown up before. Ethiopians in Greece during the classical period? I know just a far fetched notion.

 

[LeBrok]

I think it's quite good, actually. I wish I could copy paste the map provided by the creator . It shows, as I said upthread, that the Eastern farmer is indeed not only LBK; it's also Anatolian farmer. It would have come into Italy both from central Europe by means of the northeastern corridor under the Alps, and perhaps directly across the Adriatic, or with Bronze Age movements. The Western European farmer is more Impressa/Cardial, I think, with its incorporated WHG, and the movement of Beaker type farmers into southern France and northern Italy, i.e. the genomes before the arrival of the steppe peoples. I think this is why I always get such high Iberian on calculators based on modern populations. In fact, in some calculators I'm a mix of Iberian and Thessalian, i.e. northern Greece.

You know, that's very interesting: does some of the "Caucasus" in northern Italy come from slightly different and "later" steppe people?

Some Caucasian was in Steppe but not really much. If they included Anatolia in Eastern European Farmer, then it means that Eastern EF is actually Chalcolithic/BA Anatolia/Armenia, which spilled into Balkans and Beyond. Farmers anyway, but really distinct, and perhaps misnomer in Eurocentric way.

I'm still trying to make sense of the substructure in steppe. Perhaps it's because Yamnaya and Andronovo are north of the Alps movements, which would perhaps mean not much of it made it's way into Italy? There was a big settlement of Alans in central into northern Italy, which I used to "blame" for the 2% East Asian/Korean that I habitually get in some calculators. However, I think it's more likely that this breakdown highlights the different "waves" from the steppe, Yamnaya, then Andronovo like, then more "eastern" like. Wasn't Bronze Age 2 sample like that, with more "eastern", Caucasus like ancestry. Some of my Caucasus is "cloaked" in there.

I think it is actually Yamnaya part we share with Andronovo and Scythians but not a direct ancestry. Such huge Scythian invasion in times of written history, would have been noticed, and by now archaeologically confirmed.

What I mean is that if we on Eupedia have to fatigue our brains about that, what does it mean for ordinary user?

 

[Angela]

Some Caucasian was in Steppe but not really much. If they included Anatolia in Eastern European Farmer, then it means that Eastern EF is actually Chalcolithic/BA Anatolia/Armenia, which spilled into Balkans and Beyond. Farmers anyway, but really distinct, and perhaps misnomer in Eurocentric way.






I think it is actually Yamnaya part we share with Andronovo and Scythians but not a direct ancestry. Such huge Scythian invasion in times of written history, would have been noticed, and by now archaeologically confirmed.

What I mean is that if we on Eupedia have to fatigue our brains about that, what does it mean for ordinary user?

That isn't what the academics are saying using formal stats and the ancient samples, LeBrok. They're still saying upwards of 40% Caucasus/Iran Chalcolithic like in steppe, although not at the beginning.

No, the Eastern European Farmer includes LBK; it's too early to be Chalcolithic. The listed time period for the samples is 8,000-5,000 years ago, and the map shows LBK, so first wave. I do think, as I said above, that Eastern European farmer is not a very good term. Maybe they should have just said "LBK, Balkan, and Anatolian farmers". What they're getting at is genomes that don't have too much admixture and are like the early farmers who came into Europe. They specifically say that.

As for ordinary users, I don't think they're going to understand it, but they don't understand their 23andme or Ancestry results either, as you can see from some questions that even wind up here.

I actually think that for these people the companies wind up causing a lot of disinformation being passed around. One example I've seen often is Caribbean Islanders who see "Italian" results, and think they have recent Italian ancestors. The "Spanish" and "Italian" that they get should be added to get an Iberian percentage unless they know for a fact they have a recent Italian in their tree. It's just a stand in for more Western European versus more southeastern European, similar to what I show in terms of Western Mediterranean farmer and Eastern Mediterranean farmer.

I have to disagree about the steppe. The steppe ancestry came in waves too, and the later ones came from further east on the steppe. I suppose it's still possible in my particular case that it's Alans, since I get that 2% East Asian/Siberian in a lot of calculators.

 

[olov]

Results north swedish

STEPPE CULTURES 45.1
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN 21.2
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA 16.4
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA 7.5

ANCIENT FARMERS 38.4
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS 13.5
LEVANT 2.8
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG 0.0
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS 22.1

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS 16.4

 

[LeBrok]

Results north swedish

STEPPE CULTURES 45.1
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN 21.2
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA 16.4
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA 7.5

Now I'm convinced that we are not talking direct ancestry from these groups, but genetic similarities to these groups. Surely, there was no 40% Steppe migration during late bronze and Iron Age into Sweden. Yes? Even these numbers might not be right, as 7.5% of Yamnaya in Sweden seems to be low.

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG 0.0

As Angela mentioned there might be up to 40% of Iran Chalcolithic in Yamnaya. So why is it 0% here? On this chart Norwegians are over 50% Yamnaya. Sweden should be alike. We also know that vast majority of Andronovo and huge percentage in Scythian comes from Yamnaya. Therefore Yamanaya should be dominant of all the steppe here.

One thing make sense (though roughly) that they give 45% Steppe ancestry to Sweden all together. However how they divide this number into different steppe cultures and imply direct ancestry is questionable.

They are trying to achieve something impossible here to entertain the public. It is not a simple matter and this looks like a farce. You can only do it with contemporary to each other cultures, however if we go through times and deal with cultures which shared ancestry, this is not going to work this way. We can only show it as genetic similarities, unconstraint with 100% limit. Or direct ancestry genetic similarities if possible.

PS.
Welcome to Eupedia Olov.

 

[olov]

I get 4 to 6% of siberian on other calculators so it probably elevates some numbers. Much saami ancestry up here in the northern parts of scandinavia.

 

[olov]

Thank you LeBrok

 

[olov]

LeBrok
We also know that vast majority of Andronovo and huge percentage in Scythian comes from Yamnaya. Therefore Yamanaya should be dominant of all the steppe here.

I thought the same.

 

[kingjohn]

i asked the creator of this calculator
in anthrogenica forum
about the option that whg genes are hiding in the west european farmers component
his answere

Originally Posted by kingjohn dear kurd,
is it possible whg genes
are hiding in the west european farmers { as you used also chl-iberians and they do have whg admixture}?
kind regards
adam

his answere:

yes indeed, very likely.

 

[Northener]

My results, North-Dutch stock:


I. Farmer component

Eastern European Farmer obviously bigger than the West European Farmer....


II. Steppe component

Why is the Scythian component almost 0?


III. Hunter Gatherer component

It looks like if there is a "HG-Fringe" in places around the Baltic Sea and specific places around the North Sea like West Norway and (my) North Dutch result....

 

[Angela]

My results, North-Dutch stock:


I. Farmer component

Eastern European Farmer obviously bigger than de West European Farmer....


II. Steppe component

Why is the Scythian component almost 0?


III. Hunter Gatherer component

It looks like if there is a "HG-Fringe" in places around the Baltic Sea and specific places around the North Sea like West Norway and (my) North Dutch result....

That's what it looks like to me as well.

The higher eastern farmer versus western farmer was a little surprising. I guess more of your ancestry is LBK like versus up the Atlantic seaboard or up the Rhone.

I think the differences in steppe refer either to above versus below the Danube or slightly different waves of the steppe migrations. Someone should ask the creator for his perspective.

 

[elghund]

I've loaded my dna to Geneplaza, saying they are doing a process called imputation, which means they are inferring many new genetic variants. What does that mean?

 

[Northener]

That's what it looks like to me as well.

The higher eastern farmer versus western farmer was a little surprising. I guess more of your ancestry is LBK like versus up the Atlantic seaboard or up the Rhone.

I think the differences in steppe refer either to above versus below the Danube or slightly different waves of the steppe migrations. Someone should ask the creator for his perspective.

I guess that in the case of Funnelbeaker (west) there where two major neolithic influences:

a. an inland route, ''East European Farmer" from the Balkan:

https://www.thoughtco.com/funnel-beaker-culture-170938
and
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5325568/

b. and a sea route, "West European Farmer" from the Mediterraenen area:
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/04/ancient-dna-from-neolithic-sweden.html

In my case is the ratio obviously 1:1,5 in advantage of the East European Farmers.

 

[Valerius]

ANCIENT FARMERS 65.7%

• WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)19.8%

• LEVANT (4000-8000 years)4.0%

• NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)6.8%

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)35.0%


STEPPE CULTURES 30.9%

• KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)10.1%

• ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)11.4%

YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)9.3%


WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years) 1.9%


EAST AFRICAN (modern)1.2%


EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern) 0.3%


I guess that Iran Chalcolithic = Gedrosia and East African = Red Sea; The steppe component looks inline with Haak et al who gives around 30% Yamnaya for Bulgaria.

 

[Angela]

ANCIENT FARMERS 65.7%

• WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)19.8%

• LEVANT (4000-8000 years)4.0%

• NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)6.8%

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)35.0%


STEPPE CULTURES 30.9%

• KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)10.1%

• ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)11.4%

YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)9.3%


WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years) 1.9%


EAST AFRICAN (modern)1.2%


EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern) 0.3%


I guess that Iran Chalcolithic = Gedrosia and East African = Red Sea; The steppe component looks inline with Haak et al who gives around 30% Yamnaya for Bulgaria.

Going by this I guess that most people from Greece, the Balkans, and perhaps Southern Italy and Iberia are going to get East African? It's odd, because there were no Moorish invasions of the mainland. I hear some people are attributing it to very old farmer input from the Near East, but last I saw Natufians had no SSA, unless SSA is really West African, and this is Horner type ancestry that may have seeped into the Levant and from there gone with farmers into Europe.

I find it odd that I'm getting so much less Iran Neolithic/Chalcolithic/CHG here, less than people from Greece and the Balkans, and even less than Northern Europeans, when I used to get respectable amounts of "West Asian" in modern population based admixture calculators. I don't know what it really represents. I know Kurd has said that if we had more and better Levant samples those numbers might go up. I don't think that's the case with the Iran samples, though, so I don't understand the rationale for lower values for that one. I'm not on anthrogenica, so I can't ask him.