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Thread: Bronze Age women travelled the world while men stayed at home

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Right, in short 500 years, and still process is not fully finished.
    I would even say the last 100 years. But even what was before, it does not go to any comparison with the descendants states of old Neolithic societies of the Middle East those times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Who said that these societies were closer to matriarchy? Gimbutas, who saw in them the cult of the goddess-mother in opposition to the male deities of Indo-Europeans? This is the level of knowledge of the 1970s. In fact, the old Neolithic Middle Eastern societies were much tougher in their attitude towards women. All the chronicling European gain opressing of women came from the Middle East. Whether it is the period of Greece's orientalisation or adoption of Abrahamic religion in Europe. This of course does not say that the Indo-European societies were equitable, nevertheless the role of the woman there was different. Therefore, it is not surprising that Europe has fairly easily accepted gender equality, while on the territories of ancient Neolithic societies there is still insanity about women's rights.


    In some Yamnaya's burials there are skeletons of women with stone steles, a wagon and knife. That is, they were women rulers and even women warriors. Yes, such graves are found several times less than men's, but the fact is that they were. This indicates the role of women in Indo-European society, contrary to myths.
    There's no need for this type of hostility. Dial it back, or expect no further dialogue.

    Your diatribe against the Middle East, including the Christian religion, is not proof.

    I don't think we need to quote Gimbutas, but for more obscure ideas I'd like to see the academic source for assertions, i.e.

    Please document that the position of women was "better" in Indo-European society than in, say, MN Europe. I want specific academic studies.

    I'd also like a link to the studies finding "warrior" women in Yamnaya, in order to gauge the frequency, and yes, I'm aware of the "Viking" one.

    Like other societies, people who were their version of "transgender" may have been accommodated, shall we say. One example is the "two spirit" people of aboriginal Amerindians.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

    This is perhaps more likely given that Indo-European cultures seem to have had a form of institutionalized pederasty in the context of their warrior culture, so gender roles were to some extent fluid.

    See:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=2p...ulture&f=false

    I also don't quite understand why you think the recognition that the societies of "Old Europe" were different in their rituals and mythologies is something that is not supported today. It is all rather controversial, but by no means settled.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=lT...iarchy&f=false


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    I would even say the last 100 years. But even what was before, it does not go to any comparison with the descendants states of old Neolithic societies of the Middle East those times.
    True that major changes came after WW1 and collapse of monarchies, however the ideas of equality were born long before that, in or after Renaissance. The last country in Europe to allow women voting was Switzerland in 70s, IIRC. Shocking but true. And this is by way of law, because traditional treating women as "lower class", unequal to man, is still there in Europe in many countries.
    I was thinking, that we should give Middle East 100 years of their economic and social development before drawing conclusions of their inability to change and equality for women.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There's no need for this type of hostility. Dial it back, or expect no further dialogue.

    Your diatribe against the Middle East, including the Christian religion, is not proof.

    I don't think we need to quote Gimbutas, but for more obscure ideas I'd like to see the academic source for assertions, i.e.

    Please document that the position of women was "better" in Indo-European society than in, say, MN Europe. I want specific academic studies.

    I'd also like a link to the studies finding "warrior" women in Yamnaya, in order to gauge the frequency, and yes, I'm aware of the "Viking" one.

    Like other societies, people who were their version of "transgender" may have been accommodated, shall we say. One example is the "two spirit" people of aboriginal Amerindians.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

    This is perhaps more likely given that Indo-European cultures seem to have had a form of institutionalized pederasty in the context of their warrior culture, so gender roles were to some extent fluid.

    See:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=2p...ulture&f=false

    I also don't quite understand why you think the recognition that the societies of "Old Europe" were different in their rituals and mythologies is something that is not supported today. It is all rather controversial, but by no means settled.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=lT...iarchy&f=false
    Middle Eastern societies and religions are more oppressive towards women than Europe as a whole, it's just a fact.
    They are descendants of the old neolithic societies and states. At that time, almost all of Europe is a descendant of Indo-European societies.
    You can try to compare these two facts.

    Why the Neolitchic Europeans suddenly became matriarchal - a question for unscrupulous studies Gimbutas, who saw a political sub-background, in her works. Gimbutas, expressed the view that Europe was a matriarchal, destroyed by patriarchal Indo-Europeans from Sredniy Stog (thesis that "riders" from Sredniy Stog was IE she seeing from Telegin, who studied this culture).

    This you need to bring a modern research that Neolithic Europe was a closer to matriarchal one.
    According to current ideas, many human cultures with some exceptions were Patriarchal.
    A short essay by two historians Kotovskaya and Shalygina:
    http://womenation.org/the-matriarchy-myth/ (google translate)
    (Also there interesting mentioning that Andreev is about the Minoan civilization)

    About the status (ruler, warrior) of women in the Yamnaya - Ivanova S.V. Social structure of the Yamnaya culture population of the North-Western Black Sea Region. - Odessa, 2001

    Initiation was in almost all human societies, and still exist in primitive ones. This does not say anything.

    Also the goddess mother does not show evidence of matriarchy. Previously, it was believed that the matriarchy was in the Palaeolithic, since a famous Venus figures were found. But it is not.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    As I suspected, no studies whatsoever, just more blah, blah agenda driven rhetoric.

    Just for a simple fact, you can't assume that attitudes in modern countries are a direct continuation of social structures 9,000 years ago. Surely, that should be axiomatic.

    I'll be happy to discuss it when you have proof to proffer that the position of women in steppe cultures was "better" than in MN Europe.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Of course, if you believe that old Europe was a close to matriarchy, the scientific essay presented above
    will not convince you. But the question of faith is not to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Of course, if you believe that old Europe was a close to matriarchy, the scientific essay presented above
    will not convince you. But the question of faith is not to me.
    I read your link. It says absolutely nothing as to whether steppe women were better off than MN women in Europe. That was your main point. Stop obfuscating.

    As I said, if you can provide academic proof for that I'd be happy to discuss it.

    I had already posted a link to papers on both sides of this debate. Unfortunately, you don't seem to have read it, or you wouldn't post basically the same thing.

    It is indisputable that the Indo-Europeans had an extreme form of patriarchy. The data about "Old Europe" is less clear, but it certainly wasn't like the steppe cultures. Cultures exist on a continuum.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Who said that these societies were closer to matriarchy? Gimbutas, who saw in them the cult of the goddess-mother in opposition to the male deities of Indo-Europeans? This is the level of knowledge of the 1970s. In fact, the old Neolithic Middle Eastern societies were much tougher in their attitude towards women. All the chronicling European gain opressing of women came from the Middle East. Whether it is the period of Greece's orientalisation or adoption of Abrahamic religion in Europe. This of course does not say that the Indo-European societies were equitable, nevertheless the role of the woman there was different. Therefore, it is not surprising that Europe has fairly easily accepted gender equality, while on the territories of ancient Neolithic societies there is still insanity about women's rights.


    Women in ancient Egypt were the equals of men in every area except occupations. Historians Bob Brier and Hoyt Hobbs note how women were equal to men in almost every area except for jobs: "Men fought, ran the government, and managed the farm; women cooked, sewed, and managed the house" (89). Men held positions of authority such as king, governor, general, and a man was considered the head of the household but, within that patriarchy, women exercised considerable power and independence. Egyptologist Barbara Watterson writes:
    In ancient Egypt a woman enjoyed the same rights under the law as a man. What her de jure [rightful entitlement] rights were depended upon her social class not her sex. All landed property descended in the female line, from mother to daughter, on the assumption, perhaps, that maternity is a matter of fact, paternity a matter of opinion. A woman was entitled to administer her own property and dispose of it as she wished. She could buy, sell, be a partner in legal contracts, be executor in wills and witness to legal documents, bring an action at court, and adopt children in her own name. An ancient Egyptian woman was legally capax [competent, capable]. In contrast, an ancient Greek woman was supervised by a kyrios [male guardian] and many Greek women who lived in Egypt during the Ptolemaic Period, observing Egyptian women acting without kyrioi, were encouraged to do so themselves. In short, an ancient Egyptian woman enjoyed greater social standing than many women of other societies, both ancient and modern. (16)


    The respect accorded to women in ancient Egypt is evident in almost every aspect of the civilization from the religious beliefs to social customs. The gods were both male and female, and each had their own equally important areas of expertise. Women could marry who they wanted and divorce those who no longer suited them, could hold what jobs they liked - within limits - and travel at their whim. The earliest creation myths of the culture all emphasize, to greater or lesser degrees, the value of the feminine principle.


    http://www.ancient.eu/article/623/
    Women in ancient Egypt were much better off than those living in Greece at the time. However Egypt has radically changed becoming one of the worst places for women.


    The role of women in Egypt has changed throughout history, from ancient to modern times. From the earliest preserved archaeological records, Egyptian women have been thought to be considered nearly equal to men in Egyptian society, regardless of marital status. Currently, the state of women's rights in Egypt is extremely poor, with female genital mutilation, honor killings and sexual harassment remaining serious issues faced by Egyptian women. In 2013, Egypt was ranked as the worst country in the Arab World for women.[4]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Egypt

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Here is an example of a society where women had a more respected position, although it is not a matriarchy strictly speaking, which I actually don't think ever existed. The article also discusses the Hopi.

    "The Iroquois Confederacy or League, combining 5–6 Native American Haudenosaunee nations or tribes before the U.S. became a nation, operated by The Great Binding Law of Peace, a constitution by which women participated in the League's political decision-making, including deciding whether to proceed to war,[94] through what may have been a matriarchy[95] or gyneocracy.[96] According to Doug George-Kanentiio, in this society, mothers exercise central moral and political roles.[97] The dates of this constitution's operation are unknown; the League was formed in approximately 1000–1450, but the constitution was oral until written in about 1880.[98] The League still exists.George-Kanentiio explains:
    In our society, women are the center of all things. Nature, we believe, has given women the ability to create; therefore it is only natural that women be in positions of power to protect this function....We traced our clans through women; a child born into the world assumed the clan membership of its mother. Our young women were expected to be physically strong....The young women received formal instruction in traditional planting....Since the Iroquois were absolutely dependent upon the crops they grew, whoever controlled this vital activity wielded great power within our communities. It was our belief that since women were the givers of life they naturally regulated the feeding of our people....In all countries, real wealth stems from the control of land and its resources. Our Iroquois philosophers knew this as well as we knew natural law. To us it made sense for women to control the land since they were far more sensitive to the rhythms of the Mother Earth. We did not own the land but were custodians of it. Our women decided any and all issues involving territory, including where a community was to be built and how land was to be used....In our political system, we mandated full equality. Our leaders were selected by a caucus of women before the appointments were subject to popular review....Our traditional governments are composed of an equal number of men and women. The men are chiefs and the women clan-mothers....As leaders, the women closely monitor the actions of the men and retain the right to veto any law they deem inappropriate....Our women not only hold the reigns of political and economic power, they also have the right to determine all issues involving the taking of human life. Declarations of war had to be approved by the women, while treaties of peace were subject to their deliberations.[97]



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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post



    Women in ancient Egypt were much better off than those living in Greece at the time. However Egypt has radically changed becoming one of the worst places for women.
    Very true. There's lots of interesting detail in that article.

    Bottom line, each society was different, but we can't deny the patriarchy of Indo-European society, and, to return to the topic of the paper, there is no indication that women in Beaker/Corded Ware society had the ability to decide to move away on their own to other parts of Europe. These movements reflect either bride exchange or bride "sale" for goods.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I read your link. It says absolutely nothing as to whether steppe women were better off than MN women in Europe. That was your main point. Stop obfuscating.

    As I said, if you can provide academic proof for that I'd be happy to discuss it.

    I had already posted a link to papers on both sides of this debate. Unfortunately, you don't seem to have read it, or you wouldn't post basically the same thing.

    It is indisputable that the Indo-Europeans had an extreme form of patriarchy. The data about "Old Europe" is less clear, but it certainly wasn't like the steppe cultures. Cultures exist on a continuum.
    No, I did not write that. It's just not true. Or give a quote where I said this.

    My thesis was:
    1) Neolithic Europe was not matriarchal.
    2) Women in Indo-European societies were not as disenfranchised as some consider.
    3) The Middle Eastern Neolithic societies were more harsh towards women than Indo-European, as seen in European and Middle Eastern cultures. For example, Abrahimic religions.

    And if you think that extreme form of patriarchy of IE societies is "indisputably" you have already decided everything for yourself, and you can not see any arguments.

    But still:
    (all qotes google translate)
    Herodotus wrote about the Sarmatian tribes (IV, 116–117):

    Sauromat women retain their ancient customs: together with their husbands and even without them, they ride out on the hunt, go on a hike and wear the same clothes with men ... As for the marriage customs, they are what: the girl does not get married until she kills the enemy. Some die by the old women, and they never marry, because they are not able to fulfill the custom. " That is, most of these women married, having successfully solved the problem of "killing an enemy

    Tacitus about the Germanics (Germ. 18)

    Dowry offers not a wife to her husband, but a husband to his wife. At the same time, her relatives and relatives are present and inspect his gifts; and it is unacceptable that these gifts consist of women's ornaments and bridal gowns, but then there must be bulls, a bridled horse and shield with a spear and a sword. For these gifts, he gets a wife, and she in return gives her husband some weapon; in their eyes these are the most enduring bonds, these are sacred ordinances, these are the gods of marriage. And that a woman does not consider herself uncommitted to the thoughts of valorous exploits, not involved in the vicissitudes of wars, all that marks her marriage, recalls that from now on she is called upon to share the labors and dangers of her husband both in peacetime and in the battle, to undergo that and dare to do as he does; this announces to her the harness of the bulls, this is the horse at the ready, this is the weapon handed to it. So it is fitting to live, it is so fitting to perish; she gets what she intends to give to her sons, in integrity and safety, what her daughters-in-law will receive later, and what will in turn be given to her grandchildren

    It is also known about the Celts women enjoyed many civil rights, and actively participated in all men's affairs, even in war. An example of such a warrior is the powerful and cruel Queen Medb. And Only in 697, at the insistence of the abbot Adamnan, a law was passed that freed women from military service.

    All this is very far from an extreme form of patriarchy.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Dov:All the chronicling European gain opressing of women came from the Middle East. Whether it is the period of Greece's orientalisation or adoption of Abrahamic religion in Europe. This of course does not say that the Indo-European societies were equitable, nevertheless the role of the woman there was different. Therefore, it is not surprising that Europe has fairly easily accepted gender equality, while on the territories of ancient Neolithic societies there is still insanity about women's rights.
    First your type inundates the internet talking about murdering all the men in Europe and forcibly raping/ and or otherwise forcibly taking all the women to put into harems, and now you want to say that these cultures had respected roles for women. Make up your minds.

    You know what, forget it, you're a *****; I'm done talking to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    First your type inundates the internet talking about murdering all the men in Europe and forcibly raping/ and or otherwise forcibly taking all the women to put into harems, and now you want to say that these cultures had respected roles for women. Make up your minds.
    You got me mixed up with someone? I never wrote anything like that.

    The chronicle I mean to the written period.
    Orientalization of Greece from the Phoenician and the adoption of the Phoenician alphabet is a fact. This quote is about common late writing period, not prehistoric times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post

    Women in ancient Egypt were much better off than those living in Greece at the time. However Egypt has radically changed becoming one of the worst places for women.
    There is nothing surprising. At some period, women in Greece were like things for the continuation of the family and were stay at home. For everything else there were mens.

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    Don't we get our antibodies from our mothers?

    In David Reich's talk, during the questions he is asked : how come indo-europeans took over the farmers so efficiently?
    His answer pointed to a tooth found from that period with a possible plague.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Who said that these societies were closer to matriarchy? Gimbutas, who saw in them the cult of the goddess-mother in opposition to the male deities of Indo-Europeans? This is the level of knowledge of the 1970s. In fact, the old Neolithic Middle Eastern societies were much tougher in their attitude towards women. All the chronicling European gain opressing of women came from the Middle East. Whether it is the period of Greece's orientalisation or adoption of Abrahamic religion in Europe. This of course does not say that the Indo-European societies were equitable, nevertheless the role of the woman there was different. Therefore, it is not surprising that Europe has fairly easily accepted gender equality, while on the territories of ancient Neolithic societies there is still insanity about women's rights.
    In some Yamnaya's burials there are skeletons of women with stone steles, a wagon and knife. That is, they were women rulers and even women warriors. Yes, such graves are found several times less than men's, but the fact is that they were. This indicates the role of women in Indo-European society, contrary to myths.
    We see now of women warrior burials in the steppe, once thought to be men
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    You got me mixed up with someone? I never wrote anything like that.

    The chronicle I mean to the written period.
    Orientalization of Greece from the Phoenician and the adoption of the Phoenician alphabet is a fact. This quote is about common late writing period, not prehistoric times.
    The Phoenicians would have advanced the role of women, had they influenced that part of Greek society.

    http://www.phoenicianblueprint.com/B...oenicians/223/

    During the last two decades, new historical facts and information and archeological digs have been discovered that have shown a beacon of light on the Phoenicians. This ancient society lived by Seven Principles which were prominent in their daily lives. These Seven Principles—the Phoenician Blueprint—were the glue that held their society together.

    They worked as a collective unit with an impassioned purpose whether they lived in Lebanon and in various cities and colonies throughout the Eastern and Western Mediterranean. Their legacy was earthshaking: they survived, thrived and flourished because they were capable of avoiding and resolving conflicts and living in peace, unlike any other society during ancient times.

    The Phoenicians were masterful in creating a common purpose and common identity where everyone in their society operated on the same wavelength; thereby, creating a coherent heart energy field that connected them to each other and their trading partners. The coherent heart energy field operated as a gigantic social network where all Phoenicians were hard wired together and linked thorough the Blueprint. This coherency allowed their international maritime trading venture to expand one century after another.

    The Phoenicians traded metals, produce, fabrics, jewels, and other precious goods. They developed the first Democracy which spread to Greece; invented the Alphabet and introduced it to the Greeks and other trading cultures. They influenced the development of modern civilization through culture, trade, navigation of the seas, finances (money), art, and worship. The Phoenicians' success impacted all of the cultures they encountered and strengthened their and other cultures ability to flourish.

    Three principles are highlighted in this article to demonstrate their relevance in contemporary society; and how they have the capability to resolve modern day crises and restore balance and well-being to all people’s lives.

    International Trade: Become masterful at developing rapport: understand others, learn about others’ cultures, and accept the differences. Cultivate emotional intelligence skills which would lead to creating lasting relationships in all activities.

    Respect for Women: Women are as valued as men in leadership positions and the decision-making process. Women voted in this ancient culture. Women are equal partners in business, civic and community affairs and in extra-curricular activities like sports.

    Equality: Economy is inclusive and works for everyone and not a select few. No one can profit at the expense of the community as a whole. Everyone profits from business and their contribution in organizations. Everyone is valued, acknowledged and rewarded.

    The Phoenicians developed very innovative policies to encourage gender neutral cultural relationships that encouraged 1) income and gender equality and 2) sharing of their wealth through their joint economic ventures.

    Women were treated as equal partners and contributors regardless of their marital or child bearing status. They were encouraged to participate fully in every aspect of society and were not penalized for being a mother. Motherhood was highly respected along with family, freedom and faith. Women and men besides families were compensated equitably for their contribution to the trade venture. If you contributed ‘more’, your compensation was higher. Valuing women’s role in Phoenicia was a cultural norm.

    ...

    It has been demonstrated in international studies that the intersection of culture and politics is affecting economic outcomes for women. Countries with more egalitarian attitudes have stronger positive associations between wages and policies. The deployment of the Phoenician Blueprint principles in our modern day societies can help strengthen and develop human capital and family structure as well as gender and economic equality.

    The Phoenicians’ (endowed with extraordinary powers of assimilation and adaptability), shared their knowledge with their trading partners while enriching their own vision of the world. For example, they successfully created a peaceful and prosperous society for all of their citizens.

    The Phoenician Blueprint is the platform that can open the door: 1) to transform any culture, 2) to reconcile inequality, 3) to treat women as equal partners and 4) to expand trade through forming alliances and partnerships.

    Ann Watkins is a 'cultural' Phoenician, a member of the Phoenician Blueprint.org board of directors and a leader in the field of non-profit management and change.
    Freedom enjoyed by Phoenician women
    Women in Phoenicia seem to have enjoyed considerable freedom. They are represented as banqueting in the company of men, sometimes sitting with them on the same couch, sometimes reclining with them at the same table.60 Occasionally they delight their male companion by playing upon the lyre or the double pipe,61 while in certain instances they are associated in bands of three, who perform on the lyre, the double pipe, and the tambourine.62 They take part in religious processions, and present offerings to the deities.63The positions occupied in history by Jezebel and Elissar (Dido) fall in with these indications, and imply a greater approach to equality between the sexes in Phoenicia than in Oriental communities generally.

    http://phoenicia.org/dress.html
    Source




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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Middle Eastern societies and religions are more oppressive towards women than Europe as a whole, it's just a fact.
    They are descendants of the old neolithic societies and states. At that time, almost all of Europe is a descendant of Indo-European societies.
    You can try to compare these two facts.
    Do you really think there has been a continuity of values and gender roles in Europe between Bell Beaker and 20th century liberal and secular Europe? That's an extremely overstretching argument. If anything, the Indo-European cultures of Europe also absorbed elements of the Neolithic societies, especially in Southern Europe but also possibly in parts of Northern Europe (if we consider the heavy cultural substrate in Proto-Germanic), and it's not necessary to be reminded that there was a 2,000 year long period of huge cultural transformation after Christianity. If such comparisons were possible, we could make a much more plausible connection between the consolidation of European Christianity, the "Neolithic Middle Eastern" religion, and the development of humanist thought and industrial processes that eventually led to secularization and to the liberation of women. In chronological terms, there's a whole lot more connection between those events. But if you do not believe that, then please don't expect us to believe there was something inherently Indo-European, with roots 5,000 years ago, that made Europe more open to women's rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorbr View Post
    Do you really think there has been a continuity of values and gender roles in Europe between Bell Beaker and 20th century liberal and secular Europe? That's an extremely overstretching argument. If anything, the Indo-European cultures of Europe also absorbed elements of the Neolithic societies, especially in Southern Europe but also possibly in parts of Northern Europe (if we consider the heavy cultural substrate in Proto-Germanic), and it's not necessary to be reminded that there was a 2,000 year long period of huge cultural transformation after Christianity. If such comparisons were possible, we could make a much more plausible connection between the consolidation of European Christianity, the "Neolithic Middle Eastern" religion, and the development of humanist thought and industrial processes that eventually led to secularization and to the liberation of women. In chronological terms, there's a whole lot more connection between those events. But if you do not believe that, then please don't expect us to believe there was something inherently Indo-European, with roots 5,000 years ago, that made Europe more open to women's rights.
    The problem is that before Christianity, women of Celts and Germanics did not need liberation. They needed only equal rights.
    And the process of secularization of Europe correlates with the acquisition of rights by women, and not vice versa.

    Also a modern Hollywood filmmaking with strong women warriors, such as "Edge of Tomorrow" is an analogy of Sarmatian and Celtic women, in pre-Christian Indo-European societies. That is, modern mass culture has only returned to what already was more than 2000 years ago and what lost for a long time.

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    Jovialis
    Thank you for the material. Need to understand why there was such a different attitude towards Ionians womens in Athens and the Dorian womens in Sparta.
    The Ioinites were influenced by the Phoenicians. And in Sparta there were typical Indo-European women-warriors, almost on a equal with men. (What was considered very madness, by the standards of the rest of Greece) In the Phoenician, however, it can be seen that this is far not an IE role for women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorbr View Post
    Do you really think there has been a continuity of values and gender roles in Europe between Bell Beaker and 20th century liberal and secular Europe? That's an extremely overstretching argument. If anything, the Indo-European cultures of Europe also absorbed elements of the Neolithic societies, especially in Southern Europe but also possibly in parts of Northern Europe (if we consider the heavy cultural substrate in Proto-Germanic), and it's not necessary to be reminded that there was a 2,000 year long period of huge cultural transformation after Christianity. If such comparisons were possible, we could make a much more plausible connection between the consolidation of European Christianity, the "Neolithic Middle Eastern" religion, and the development of humanist thought and industrial processes that eventually led to secularization and to the liberation of women. In chronological terms, there's a whole lot more connection between those events. But if you do not believe that, then please don't expect us to believe there was something inherently Indo-European, with roots 5,000 years ago, that made Europe more open to women's rights.
    You make perfect sense, but when people are agenda driven it doesn't matter. Everything becomes grist for the mill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    The problem is that before Christianity, women of Celts and Germanics did not need liberation. They needed only equal rights.
    And the process of secularization of Europe correlates with the acquisition of rights by women, and not vice versa.
    Also a modern Hollywood filmmaking with strong women warriors, such as "Edge of Tomorrow" is an analogy of Sarmatian and Celtic women, in pre-Christian Indo-European societies. That is, modern mass culture has only returned to what already was more than 2000 years ago and what lost for a long time.
    We have no solid proof that Celtic and Sarmatian women were as free and equal to men as Hollywood movies of "barbarian women warriors" depict them. It's not the first time that Hollywood is extremely anachronistic and impresses contemporary values and practices into ancient history. The fact that some women participated in war is no guarantee that the average woman, who of course were mothers and housewives, had a high status and high personal freedom in their villages. We don't even know if those women warriors were regarded as "common women" just like the spouses and daughters of all those strong men. If what we know about more developed and literate Indo-European societies, like Greeks, Romans, Persians and North Indians, is to be believed, that was definitely not the case.

    Also, you need to analyze things through the context and conditions of that time. For instance, a practice like the prohibition of divorce by early Christianity, which eventually became a burden to women, was quite possibly a huge improvement for many women who previously felt extremely insecure as they aged and when they ceased to be pleasant companions to their husbands. That's just an example of how "equality" and "oppression" aren't as black and white as you seem to think. The fact that Indo-European tribes had a few women warriors tell us little about how they were in fact treated in everyday life when they were not part of a tiny military elite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorbr View Post
    We have no solid proof that Celtic and Sarmatian women were as free and equal to men as Hollywood movies of "barbarian women warriors" depict them. It's not the first time that Hollywood is extremely anachronistic and impresses contemporary values and practices into ancient history. The fact that some women participated in war is no guarantee that the average woman, who of course were mothers and housewives, had a high status and high personal freedom in their villages. We don't even know if those women warriors were regarded as "common women" just like the spouses and daughters of all those strong men. If what we know about more developed and literate Indo-European societies, like Greeks, Romans, Persians and North Indians, is to be believed, that was definitely not the case.
    we know of some powerfull and very wealthy Celtic lady : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorbr View Post
    Also, you need to analyze things through the context and conditions of that time. For instance, a practice like the prohibition of divorce by early Christianity, which eventually became a burden to women, was quite possibly a huge improvement for many women who previously felt extremely insecure as they aged and when they ceased to be pleasant companions to their husbands.
    why do you think so ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    we know of some powerfull and very wealthy Celtic lady : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave
    Yes, but then we also know of some very powerful, intellectually independent and very wealthy Catholic medieval women in Europe, like, for example, Eleanor of Aquitaine and Amalasuntha. We also know of influent intellectuals like Catherine of Siena and Theresa of Avila, even warriors like Joan of Arc. Does that mean that the general status of average women in the medieval Christian world was confidently represented by that elite minority of independent women? I don't think so. It is always too easy to romanticize and glorify the long gone past for which we have much less evidences than we have for more recent and literate times, but I definitely don't buy the theory that Celtic and Germanic women were in general much more free than women in other ancient cultures. Probably they had less strictly defined social roles, but they were far from equal and powerful except for a minority of especially talented or noble women.

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    why do you think so ?
    I don't affirm it was a definite advantage because we don't have enough proofs to establish that, but I do think we must at least ponder about the fact that in the first centuries of Christianity women were among the most enthusiastic converts and very often the vehicles through which their husbands and children eventually converted as well, and the fact that in many ancient Mediterranean societies the husband (but not, in general, the woman) had the right to reject her wife and had even, as was the case with the "manus" of the Roman "pater familias", the right to beat her and kill her if he thought necessary. A husband could simply get tired of his wife, reject her and get her out of his household. He was the patriarch, the owner of the household, the family wealth and even the children and grandchildren.

    For the average women, who had few personal possessions and was mostly a wife caring for little children and managing the domestic issues of the household, divorce meant not "liberation" nor "independence", but rather total destitution, social disgrace and lack of economic means and social networks to be able to survive in the community. An average divorced woman wouldn't go and farm the land for herself (the land wasn't hers), or find work in the city (most available works were exclusively male), or marry again with another spouse (she was already "too used" and "too old" for most men, and more often than not with children of another man). We definitely can't judge social conditions and customs of the past based on the economic and social opportunities of the present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorbr View Post
    Yes, but then we also know of some very powerful, intellectually independent and very wealthy Catholic medieval women in Europe, like, for example, Eleanor of Aquitaine and Amalasuntha. We also know of influent intellectuals like Catherine of Siena and Theresa of Avila, even warriors like Joan of Arc. Does that mean that the general status of average women in the medieval Christian world was confidently represented by that elite minority of independent women? I don't think so. It is always too easy to romanticize and glorify the long gone past for which we have much less evidences than we have for more recent and literate times, but I definitely don't buy the theory that Celtic and Germanic women were in general much more free than women in other ancient cultures. Probably they had less strictly defined social roles, but they were far from equal and powerful except for a minority of especially talented or noble women.I don't affirm it was a definite advantage because we don't have enough proofs to establish that, but I do think we must at least ponder about the fact that in the first centuries of Christianity women were among the most enthusiastic converts and very often the vehicles through which their husbands and children eventually converted as well, and the fact that in many ancient Mediterranean societies the husband (but not, in general, the woman) had the right to reject her wife and had even, as was the case with the "manus" of the Roman "pater familias", the right to beat her and kill her if he thought necessary. A husband could simply get tired of his wife, reject her and get her out of his household. He was the patriarch, the owner of the household, the family wealth and even the children and grandchildren.For the average women, who had few personal possessions and was mostly a wife caring for little children and managing the domestic issues of the household, divorce meant not "liberation" nor "independence", but rather total destitution, social disgrace and lack of economic means and social networks to be able to survive in the community. An average divorced woman wouldn't go and farm the land for herself (the land wasn't hers), or find work in the city (most available works were exclusively male), or marry again with another spouse (she was already "too used" and "too old" for most men, and more often than not with children of another man). We definitely can't judge social conditions and customs of the past based on the economic and social opportunities of the present.
    All of that is very true.I would just re-iterate what was said above about certain cultures in the Near East giving women some modicum of independence, such as the Egyptians and the Phoenicians. They also, like the Celts, had powerful women leaders in a minority of situations, such as Hatshepsut ruling as Pharaoh in Egypt, and some powerful Phoenician Queens. That doesn't mean, in either case, that women in general had a lot of power.You can't make these blanket generalizations, at least not, at least, if you know anything about the cultures of the Near East in antiquity.

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