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Thread: Bronze Age women travelled the world while men stayed at home

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    A HIGH-RESOLUTION TIME TRANSECT THROUGH THE LECH VALLEY, BAVARIA: POPULATIONS –
    FAMILIES – INDIVIDUALS
    Author(s): Mittnik, Alissa (Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, Jena; Institute for Archaeological Sciences, University
    of Tübingen) - Knipper, Corina (Curt-Engelhorn-Centre Archaeometry gGmbH, Mannheim) - Massy, Ken (LMU Munich) - Stockhammer,
    Philipp W. (LMU Munich; Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, Jena) - Krause, Johannes (Max Planck Institute for the
    Science of Human History, Jena; Institute for Archaeological Sciences, University of Tübingen)
    Presentation Format: Oral
    While palaeogenomic research used to be contingent on the discovery of the rare sample with exceptional DNA preservation, targeted
    enrichment and subsequent high-throughput sequencing of selected informative genetic markers has made possible the cost- and time-effective analysis and comparison of large numbers of ancient samples. As a result, high-resolution studies on a microregional
    level that address social dynamics and local and individual variations in ancestry and mobility become a feasible pursuit. Here, we present the genomic analysis of over 120 individuals from the Lech valley in southern Bavaria, Germany, which offers ideal conditions for such a study. Several burial sites containing rich archaeological material were directly dated to the second half of the 3rd and first half of the 2nd millennium BCE and associated with the Final Neolithic Bell Beaker Complex and the Early and Middle Bronze Age.
    Utilising relatedness inference methods developed for low-coverage modern DNA we are able to reconstruct multigenerational pedigrees that likely represent core families within the communities that buried their dead at each cemetery. Joint analysis with several hundred published ancient genomes allows us to estimate proportions of distinct ancestries in each individual to evaluate sex biased migration and admixture. Within an interdisciplinary framework, comprehensive archaeological assessment and stable isotope analyses were an integral part of this project. Thus, we gain additional insights into distribution of wealth and individual mobility, providing us with a more holistic view of the social structure of these prehistoric societies and the modes of cultural transition.
    The autosomal findings are quite interesting, from 70% steppe among CWC, drowning to 50% with BB, drowning more and more till Late Bronze with 20% steppe; I can't understand how, a permenent flux of southerners or westerners? a long-standing apartheid between local pops?

    For Y-DNA some 85% R1b being the remainder G and I, it's a good starting point to know what would be the first Celtic speakers as the area is in the core of the Hallstatt culture. About the R1b BB all were coming from abroad as the molar isotopes are not local, half of the BB women also came from afar.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    The autosomal findings are quite interesting, from 70% steppe among CWC, drowning to 50% with BB, drowning more and more till Late Bronze with 20% steppe; I can't understand how, a permenent flux of southerners or westerners? a long-standing apartheid between local pops?

    For Y-DNA some 85% R1b being the remainder G and I, it's a good starting point to know what would be the first Celtic speakers as the area is in the core of the Hallstatt culture. About the R1b BB all were coming from abroad as the molar isotopes are not local, half of the BB women also came from afar.
    They intermarried with locals.


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    And how was this process? take into account that from 70% steppe in 3000 BC the percent drwons to 20% by 1000 BC, which "local" reservoir is that?

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    the populations densities, climatic conditions and the cultural level of the preceding people were diverse in Europe and I believe that in South-East some flux went from Anatolia after the first farmers rush, so densifying the local people pre-Steppes
    beside but not without logic connexions: if tested Mycenians were all from Creta (it would be logical), their proximity to Minoans could be explained by the process of 'true first Hellens' from the continent mixing with Minoans? Just a thought - but we need more sample and more Y-haplo's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    And how was this process? take into account that from 70% steppe in 3000 BC the percent drwons to 20% by 1000 BC, which "local" reservoir is that?
    The demographic developments in the metal ages weren't always so straightfoward. Just like CW rapidly declined when BB moved in, so did many other cultures and populations after that. Perhaps less steppe-admixed populations got lucky as the Bronze Age progressed. If you look at Urnfield culture for example it looks as though the most populous and wealthy regions were located around the Alps, in Tyrol and vicinity, where steppe admixture might have been a bit smaller.

    As an example, if I had to guess I'd bet that the Proto-Germanics of Jastorf came from some type of mixture between Urnfield men and Nordic Bronze Age women, which is why contemporary Germanics don't have as much steppe admixture as CW/Battle Axe.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I guess maths work the same now than in the Bronze Age, from 70 to 20 in 2000 years, how?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I mean sounds very easy. If we put the center of Steppe MLBA in Eastern Europe, without influx of that center into the ones who migrate out of it, they gonna loss their steppe component with mixing with local populations over the times. You can be R1b, look physically like yamnaya reconstructions and have strictly 0 dna linking with the Bronze Age Steppe. Like Markoz, i also think that in mountaneous regions like Alps and Pyrennées, metallurgic culture taking a lot culturally by IE's weren't linguistically and genetically that much Steppe. And also like Moesan said, it could be likely that in metallurgic ages, Anatolian - Balkans contribute more in Central Europe than Eastern Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I guess maths work the same now than in the Bronze Age, from 70 to 20 in 2000 years, how?
    Aside :
    this thread begun by questions about an overinterpretation of the females mobility between Chalco (not Neolithic) and Bronze, based upon a survey concerning about 80 skeletons ; study of mt-DNA and strontium to evaluate mobility, without studying autosomal DNA : first error : auDNA can often give reliable results even without a numerous sample ; haplos need bigger samples to take sense statistically -
    as others, I think females in these times were sometimes either picked here and there by free young warriors and by male elites on their way to new places, even if some previous wives were kept along; when some tribe was stabilised (at least for some generations), some surrounding autochtonous females were added to the others ; then they were not obliged to came from too distant places, even if they could show some differences in places markers like strontium only the males elite could contract alliances and take wives of foreign tribes for political purpose, sometimes far enough places the cultural input of these new females was not too high I suppose and they did not play a big political role neither beside their position of guest and peace link,with some exceptions I dont see personally women deciding independently to take the road to cross lands and lands like globe-trotters to settle freely in new places, in those times at least -
    BBs male showed big mobility too : strontium and Cy are not always sufficient tools to tell us the very place of origin of somebody seemingly it shows very well differences of geology at a local level but its power of precise geographic identification is somewhat limited in most of the cases, I think after some readings well, so, BBs males moved, that is the point ; but the big network of their culture in Western Europe is surely not based upon a continual migratory advance, but after some time upon an exchanges territories where someones went and came (go an return), and this could have given rise by time to moving females too, at least one time in their life before new stabilisation, and rise to an homogeneization of the mt- pool in the final stages, on the way to the current distribution at least in places of Western Europe -
    Y-R1b-L23 and downstream SNPs are not autochtonous in Western Europe and seem having moved from Eastern places, relatively quickly at the history scale, on a very large territory and at first in some form which evocates migration or expansion before partial stabilisation and coming backs I suppose the females (and their mtDNA) who moved/integrated from foreign cultures did this in a very different way and at a smaller geographic scale ;


    - concerning the supposed Y-R1b-steppes auDNA association, the overwhelming dominance of this haplo in Western Europe could not concern only the elite and it is rather the result of monopolisation of autochtonous females (BBs surely did not kill all the males, and evidently less the females, they apparently took the monopole on these last ones) -
    the BBs of Germany when placed on PCAs show a large geographic spectrum in despite of their Y-haplogroups global homogeneity even if they are not all of them of the same generation this proves that they continued taking females in diverse populations formed with relatively different % of admixture if they had taken foreign females at the origin or on their way and kept them later after settling without more crossings, their auDNA would have become more similar at last what has not been the case so it suggests they kept on taking new females still a long time -
    & : to take an example : a clan with 60 % steppes ancestry taking foreign wives (here, keeping their previous wives) on the road aisle :
    every generation, 20 % of new wives :
    children generations : 1: 54 % - 2: ~49 % - 3: ~44 % - 4: ~39 % - 5: 35 % - 6: 32 %
    every generation, 40 % of new wives :
    children generations : 1: 48 % - 2: ~34 % - 3: ~27 % - 4: ~22 % - 5: 18 % - 6: 14 %
    We can that about 6 generations of crossings, its to say 150 to 200 years, we arrive far enough from the previous 60 % of steppe - of course it depends on the % of new females ; here I have taken a constant % of foreign wives surely it has not been like this everywhere for every generation, its just stubborn maths and the old admixture components dont not evolve so quickly because they were shared in diverse proportions by different ethnies ; here I considered only the well identified steppe autosomal component but we can understand that, when it was matter of young warriors swarmings (ver sacrum or not) or little sets of prospectors without wives, the first generation could pass from 60 % to a dry 30 % -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Aside :
    this thread begun by questions about an overinterpretation of the females mobility between Chalco (not Neolithic) and Bronze, based upon a survey concerning about 80 skeletons ; study of mt-DNA and strontium to evaluate mobility, without studying autosomal DNA : first error : auDNA can often give reliable results even without a numerous sample ; haplo�s need bigger samples to take sense statistically -
    as others, I think females in these times were sometimes either picked here and there by free young warriors and by male elites on their way to new places, even if some previous wives were kept along; when some tribe was stabilised (at least for some generations), some surrounding autochtonous females were added to the others ; then they were not obliged to came from too distant places, even if they could show some differences in places markers like strontium � only the males elite could contract alliances and take wives of foreign tribes for political purpose, sometimes far enough places � the cultural input of these new females was not too high I suppose and they did not play a big political role neither beside their position of �guest� and peace link,with some exceptions � I don�t see personally women deciding independently to take the road to cross lands and lands like globe-trotters to settle freely in new places, in those times at least -
    BB�s male showed big mobility too : strontium and Cy are not always sufficient tools to tell us the very place of origin of somebody � seemingly it shows very well differences of geology at a local level but its power of precise geographic identification is somewhat limited in most of the cases, I think after some readings � well, so, BB�s males moved, that is the point ; but the big network of their culture in Western Europe is surely not based upon a continual migratory advance, but after some time upon an exchanges territories where someones went and came (go an return), and this could have given rise by time to moving females too, at least one time in their life before new stabilisation, and rise to an homogeneization of the mt- pool in the final stages, on the way to the current distribution at least in places of Western Europe -
    Y-R1b-L23 and downstream SNP�s are not autochtonous in Western Europe and seem having moved from Eastern places, relatively quickly at the history scale, on a very large territory and at first in some form which evocates migration or expansion before partial stabilisation and coming backs � I suppose the females (and their mtDNA) who moved/integrated from foreign cultures did this in a very different way and at a smaller geographic scale ;


    - concerning the supposed Y-R1b-steppes auDNA association, the overwhelming dominance of this haplo in Western Europe could not concern only the elite and it is rather the result of monopolisation of �autochtonous � females (BB�s surely did not kill all the males, and evidently less the females, they apparently took the monopole on these last ones) -
    the BB�s of Germany when placed on PCA�s show a large geographic spectrum in despite of their Y-haplogroups global homogeneity � even if they are not all of them of the same generation this proves that they continued taking females in diverse populations formed with relatively different % of admixture � if they had taken foreign females at the origin or on their way and kept them later after settling without more crossings, their auDNA would have become more similar at last what has not been the case so it suggests they kept on taking new females still a long time -
    & : to take an example : a clan with 60 % �steppes� ancestry taking foreign wives (here, keeping their previous wives) on the road � aisle � :
    every generation, 20 % of new wives :
    children generations : 1�: 54 % - 2�: ~49 % - 3�: ~44 % - 4�: ~39 % - 5�: 35 % - 6�: 32 %
    every generation, 40 % of new wives :
    children generations : 1�: 48 % - 2�: ~34 % - 3�: ~27 % - 4�: ~22 % - 5�: 18 % - 6�: 14 %
    We can that about 6 generations of crossings, it�s to say 150 to 200 years, we arrive far enough from the previous 60 % of �steppe� - of course it depends on the % of new females ; here I have taken a constant % of foreign wives � surely it has not been like this everywhere for every generation, it�s just stubborn maths � and the old admixture components dont� not evolve so quickly because they were shared in diverse proportions by different ethnies ; here I considered only the well identified �steppe� autosomal component � but we can understand that, when it was matter of young warriors � swarmings � (�ver sacrum� or not) or little sets of prospectors without wives, the first generation could pass from 60 % to a dry 30 % -
    Excellent, Moesan. Thanks.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So, in Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Earyl BA, Eastern Europe and mostly Pontic Steppe was a reservoir of R1b diversity and EHG cluster. We associate those two with the propagation of IE languages, but the thing is, we have a gap from those people and the Bell Beaker, Vucedol, and later Unetice... this gap is Balkans. We need to see this like a progressive ver sacrum, first, some steppic people came in actual romania, into the danubian plain and eastern hungary. At this point, whether steppe women were in large number or not with steppe men is very important, steppe men keep moving progressively, probably because of demographic pressure into more territory, but what about the steppe women? How Steppic Men and Steppic Women migrated is very important, it can change a lot of things into our perception. If we take the Basque language exemple into account, we basically conclude this. IE men + Pre-IE Women = Non-IE Language, but what if the countrary was actually a thing? What if in Balkans, IE men were replaced by non-IE men and non-IE men + IE women = IE language? This could be an exemple of dilution of the steppe component with distinct genetic groups, but without a big change into linguistic. So, basically what i want to demonstrate with my exemple is that, genetic = / = linguistic obviously, but that the genetic and linguistic interrelationship taking into account IE languages and Steppe component ( wich is what we are interested of ) can be very different into the context. It's interesting that the two big hotspots of R1b in modern times are Britain / Irlande - Western France - Western Iberia. It's like, those guys roamed like crazy into west without looking backward until achieve its goal. But the real question is, what do they left behind, and how did it evolved.

    For me, it looks pretty certain that, Steppe Women were in the Balkans before Steppe Men and that because of exogamic marital exchange. Can we imagine a transitional culture like Cucuteni Men + Steppe Women = Pre-Anatolian Languages?

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    I spoke of 'steppe' auDNA dilution, not seriously about 'steppe'-IE relation because the problematic here is far more complex I think.
    Ancient antrhopology show a EHG or maybe already 'EHG'>'steppe' females introgression into Cucuteni/Tripolje, but I doubt it gave way to indoeuropeanisation of Cucuteni/Tr. culture concerning language. To me, to pass language, females in these societies needed a strong percentage domination to become effective... Only my way to see, because serious surveys about the cases of language shift are still very scarce, or I'm not aware of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I spoke of 'steppe' auDNA dilution, not seriously about 'steppe'-IE relation because the problematic here is far more complex I think.
    Ancient antrhopology show a EHG or maybe already 'EHG'>'steppe' females introgression into Cucuteni/Tripolje, but I doubt it gave way to indoeuropeanisation of Cucuteni/Tr. culture concerning language. To me, to pass language, females in these societies needed a strong percentage domination to become effective... Only my way to see, because serious surveys about the cases of language shift are still very scarce, or I'm not aware of them.
    I have an idea for a long time, but i dont know how to formulate it because i dont know enough of historical and actual ethnology to know if this is a real thing but...
    Basically, my guess is that in Old Europe Society, some kind of pre-hierarchisation and mercantilia was born with the neigboring of such population like the steppe ones. The result of that kind of new society, did old europe father in a sort of pre-patriarchy giving their daughter to steppe men instead of local and related men because of an highest wealthfare of the latter and steppe women were given into son of those pre-patriarch old europe people. Very fast, common old europe men where completely put aside of the society and pontic steppe playing the role of a big reservoir of men, very fast became dominant in neighboring places, this demographic explosion made the disappearance of most of the old europe men, the dominance of the steppe ones, the dominance of the old europe women and a certain minority of steppe women. I see the Steppe people movement more like a capitalist result than a conquering one, like in our modern times, some people feel entitled to replace local people with some cheaper migrant for economical reasons just to be wealthier, i see the major reason of the propagation of steppe and ie languages because of social evolution like this.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    children generations : 1�: 48 % - 2�: ~34 % - 3�: ~27 % - 4�: ~22 % - 5�: 18 % - 6�: 14 %
    We can that about 6 generations of crossings, it�s to say 150 to 200 years, we arrive far enough from the previous 60 % of �steppe� - of course it depends on the % of new females ; here I have taken a constant % of foreign wives � surely it has not been like this everywhere for every generation, it�s just stubborn maths
    In 200 years? but the worst is to explain the 2000 years gap, as Alpine reservoirs of EEF is more like a bucolich picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    In 200 years? but the worst is to explain the 2000 years gap, as Alpine reservoirs of EEF is more like a bucolich picture.
    You're not taking into account the possibility that an EEF-enriched population could have experienced unequal growth during that time. If such an expansive population mixed with the previous inhabitants they might at that point already have been so numerous that this mingling didn't change their autosomal DNA much. Much like the inhabitants USA aren't a 1:1 mixture of European settlers and indigenous Americans, so rather a colonisation of sorts.

    If something like this caused the subsequent southern shift I think it must have to do with whatever happened leading up to the Urnfield complex. It's noteworthy that this didn't happen in places that were isolated from mainland Europe - the populations of Great Britain and Ireland were pretty much set after the late Bronze Age.

    BTW do you have a link to the autosomal/Y-DNA analysis?

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    Hm, pretty interesting







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    This is all just equality-fuelled rubbish by the way, women never migrated on their own. I hate stuff like this, it reminds me of when they "discovered" that supposed female Viking warrior... give me a break! The absolute worst was that supposed transgender Corded Ware male, but thankfully even the scientifically inbred, self-serving cesspit of political correctness that is modern archaeology largely rejected that, but not without hesitation...

    We're doomed for the next generation.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    This is all just equality-fuelled rubbish by the way, women never migrated on their own. I hate stuff like this, it reminds me of when they "discovered" that supposed female Viking warrior... give me a break! The absolute worst was that supposed transgender Corded Ware male, but thankfully even the scientifically inbred, self-serving cesspit of political correctness that is modern archaeology largely rejected that, but not without hesitation...

    We're doomed for the next generation.
    But you know that nobody can force you to believe to their conclusions right? Becoming a Doomer because of how some people project or believe, is a straight path for depression or more.

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    Sounds like human trafficking

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