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Thread: Bronze Age women travelled the world while men stayed at home

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Bronze Age women travelled the world while men stayed at home

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...led-world-men/

    The research reveals that over a period of some 800 years, European women travelled between 300km and 500km from their home villages to start families, while men tended to stay near where they were born.


    Maybe that is how Bell Beaker pots got from Iberia to Central Europe?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The title of the actual study is:
    "Female mobility and exogamy as the main drivers of foreign admixture during the Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age shift in Central Europe"

    To me it seems like they're claiming that females were responsible for the genetic shift of the Bronze age with such a title. Of course we know that the y-dna of western europe shifted from I2a to R1b around this period while presumed steppe mtdna was not introduced on nearly such a massive scale.

    Large scale female migration does make sense for the latter spread of farming into far western europe during the neolithic since we still see a dominance of I2a in these areas after the introduction of farming and EEF admixture coupled with a change in local mtdna, but the study here is focusing specifically on the bronze age. How would R1b make such a rapid progression if it was just the women moving around?

    Also why were the women moving so much? The Telegraph puts it a bit optimistically saying that it was the "independent women venturing out into the world...the practice was rooted in ancient times, when Bronze Age men stayed at home while adventurous women were the key to spreading culture and ideas", but surely knowing the violence of ancient times and seeing as these women were assimilated into the cultures they moved to(based off of the burial practices) there were probably less pleasant things occurring.

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    The tested time period coincides with the rapid expansion of I1 in Germany and Scandinavia. Their test area was Germany. The article fails to mention the number of women compared to the number of men. They say that goods traveled with the women.

    The logical conclusion here that I would never expect some punk at the Telegraph to publicly guess is that the women were stolen or purchased. They were buried in the manner of the local patriarchal culture. There have been guesses before about how the rapid R1b and I1 expansions could have possibly occurred. We have posted stories about the groups of young men sent out of their town with the idea of eventually returning.

    So, the culture was to grow pop by raiding women and presumably killing the men of those women. Then, bring the loot home and have lots of kids. Now you have rapid expansion of territory YDNA wise but diversity mtDNA wise.

    OR this village was rich and people willingly sent their daughters off here to be taken care of.
    It could have been completely based on economics but we know the dark history of humans....what seems most likely?




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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    The tested time period coincides with the rapid expansion of I1 in Germany and Scandinavia. Their test area was Germany.
    It probably won't reveal much about expansion of I1. The study was done only in the "Lech Valley, south of Augsburg", so the extreme south of Germany where they do not have much I1 and where Germans did not inhabit until recently.

    I agree though, the Telegraph seems to care more about the political content they could spin with the study rather than the historical value offered. Unfortunately we can't read the actual study ourselves yet: www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.1706355114

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    It probably won't reveal much about expansion of I1. The study was done only in the "Lech Valley, south of Augsburg", so the extreme south of Germany where they do not have much I1 and where Germans did not inhabit until recently.

    I agree though, the Telegraph seems to care more about the political content they could spin with the study rather than the historical value offered. Unfortunately we can't read the actual study ourselves yet: www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.1706355114
    Agreed, but this could help paint the picture of how the celtic expansion in western Europe and the British Isles occurred. On top of that, it's my theory (and certainly not only mine) that the I1 rapid expansion was after contact or assimilation with the U106 bearing IE/celts and the transmission method was similar.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    The tested time period coincides with the rapid expansion of I1 in Germany and Scandinavia. Their test area was Germany. The article fails to mention the number of women compared to the number of men. They say that goods traveled with the women.
    Apart from raiding and kidnapping women (perhaps in a relatively institutionalized and, thus, pretty much expected fashion, as it still happens in isolated parts of Kyrgyzstan), the exchange of women together with goods can also suggest the maintenance of good relations and military and/or economic alliances with other tribes, especially when the male-biased and increasingly powerful new settlements were surrounded by other more populous but decadent tribes. Marrying women off was historically and until very recently one of the best ways to foster connections and guarantee a better treatment under a new social situation. In 16th century Brazil, Neolithic tribes very often offered their daughters to Portuguese men (some early Portuguese settlers taking dozens of them as their spouses) as a sign of good will and political alliance with the strong newcomers, and they in exchange received better treatment and avoided annihilation by the Portuguese (and also often acquired many new goods and access to trade). What I mean is that there was a lot of extreme violence coupled with unnervingly "cold" diplomacy between tribes and villages in ancient times. People were at war in one day, and the other day they were trading and celebrating marriages.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorbr View Post
    Apart from raiding and kidnapping women (perhaps in a relatively institutionalized and, thus, pretty much expected fashion, as it still happens in isolated parts of Kyrgyzstan), the exchange of women together with goods can also suggest the maintenance of good relations and military and/or economic alliances with other tribes, especially when the male-biased and increasingly powerful new settlements were surrounded by other more populous but decadent tribes. Marrying women off was historically and until very recently one of the best ways to foster connections and guarantee a better treatment under a new social situation. In 16th century Brazil, Neolithic tribes very often offered their daughters to Portuguese men (some early Portuguese settlers taking dozens of them as their spouses) as a sign of good will and political alliance with the strong newcomers, and they in exchange received better treatment and avoided annihilation by the Portuguese (and also often acquired many new goods and access to trade). What I mean is that there was a lot of extreme violence coupled with unnervingly "cold" diplomacy between tribes and villages in ancient times. People were at war in one day, and the other day they were trading and celebrating marriages.
    I think this is more likely to be the case. The men are staying put, and individual women are traveling, so I don't see how this changes the "y". What the authors were emphasizing was the spread of culture, artifacts, techniques, etc., through bride exchange, which was common in many locations and cultures. What it may well have done is totally scramble the mt dna lineages, and bring about autosomal similarity and homogenization, although within manageable distances.


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    Here is a quote from an abstract on the study

    "The DNA analysis enables us to understand family relations within the burial sites as well as the transformation of the genomic patterns from the Corded Ware to the Bell Beaker Complex and further on to the Early Bronze Age. In the end, we are able to present a new narrative for the genesis as well as the end of the Bell Beaker Complex at least for the Lech Valley south of Augsburg."

    So is this how Steppe ancestry entered Western Europe, through the exchange of women with the Corded Ware?

    Its a very rough hypothesis, but I can see western European R1b originating with the hunter gatherers of Romania(Which I was surprised generated so little discussion, not just here but across the web) and Iron Gates, these hunter gatherers mixing with incoming Neolithic populations and then moving north to central Europe. In central Europe they would have gained steppe ancestry by exchange with Corded Ware groups and then spread further west after genetic, cultural and linguistic impact from the Corded Ware.

    The major problem with this theory of course is the lack of steppe mtdna in western Europe. I know fire haired has been working with European mtdna, maybe he has some insight on this.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The scenario can easily be
    ..
    The women had children, once the children where old enough, the women and children moved to a new area, the next generation of daughters got pregnant, and then these women moved with their children............and so on..............the men stayed behind, there was no marriage at that time.
    ..
    The male children can expand their ydna following their mothers.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The scenario can easily be
    ..
    The women had children, once the children where old enough, the women and children moved to a new area, the next generation of daughters got pregnant, and then these women moved with their children............and so on..............the men stayed behind, there was no marriage at that time.
    ..
    The male children can expand their ydna following their mothers.
    In which ancient, patrilocal culture have women had the power and the means to suddenly decide, on their own, to move to a new area with their children?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In which ancient, patrilocal culture have women had the power and the means to suddenly decide, on their own, to move to a new area with their children?
    in all societies prior to the Babylonian rules of 4000 years ago
    you need to stop being a gendered racist and treat women equal to men
    ..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPMocsqHnDo

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    in all societies prior to the Babylonian rules of 4000 years ago
    you need to stop being a gendered racist and treat women equal to men
    ..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPMocsqHnDo
    The abject stupidity of this post should speak for itself, but just in case...

    The closest things to a matriarchy Europe ever saw were the Neolithic societies prior to the arrival of steppe peoples. Even those were not actually total matriarchies, but certainly different from the patriarchies which succeeded them. The paper is discussing Bell Beaker and Corded Ware in Germany, which means we're talking about STEPPE CULTURES by definition. In addition, the authors specifically state they're talking about a PATRILOCAL society, i.e. PATRIARCHIES. Everybody clear?

    In such a society, to suggest that a woman could independently decide to pack up her daughters and move elsewhere is the height of ABSURDITY.

    Facts are facts and are not to be confused with personal preferences, but the people who are part of the arising fascism of the left don't seem to be able to grasp this fundamental concept.

    Personally, I'm all for matriarchies, especially because it would mean that abjectly stupid men who can't think their way out of a paper bag would be kept away from all decision making.

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    Stupid people in general should be kept away from decision making.

    But that's likely never going to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The abject stupidity of this post should speak for itself, but just in case...

    The closest things to a matriarchy Europe ever saw were the Neolithic societies prior to the arrival of steppe peoples. Even those were not actually total matriarchies, but certainly different from the patriarchies which succeeded them. The paper is discussing Bell Beaker and Corded Ware in Germany, which means we're talking about STEPPE CULTURES by definition. In addition, the authors specifically state they're talking about a PATRILOCAL society, i.e. PATRIARCHIES. Everybody clear?

    In such a society, to suggest that a woman could independently decide to pack up her daughters and move elsewhere is the height of ABSURDITY.

    Facts are facts and are not to be confused with personal preferences, but the people who are part of the arising fascism of the left don't seem to be able to grasp this fundamental concept.

    Personally, I'm all for matriarchies, especially because it would mean that abjectly stupid men who can't think their way out of a paper bag would be kept away from all decision making.
    what does matrilocal and patrilocal, matriarchal and patriarchal actually mean?
    it is not the same

    I was in South Africa
    I learned the lions are matriarchal
    there is however no species where the male is so lazy and so well-fed compared to the lionesses
    the main concern for the male lion is to obstruct other nomadic males from entering the group
    for some reason which is not clear to me the lionesses accept the male lion for the role he is playing

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Stupid people in general should be kept away from decision making.

    But that's likely never going to happen.
    how will you decide who that is?

    in a democracy, it is not the most intelligent or most capable who rules, it is Mr Popular
    in other systems, we get even worse people on top

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    how will you decide who that is?

    in a democracy, it is not the most intelligent or most capable who rules, it is Mr Popular
    in other systems, we get even worse people on top
    I know! Absolutely! These days, intellect is less needed than it should be.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The exogamy and females mobility question :
    Since some time I read papers or abstracts about this. It seems to me the perspective is somehow wrung in readers heads.
    1° I doubt that the most of distances between their birthplaces and new living places would have exceded 70/80 km a sa rule.
    2° I doubt these females would have been the whole culture transmettors in these patrilocal and viril warlike societies even if we may suppose some of the household usages came with them.
    3° I rather think the cultural changes could have been the results of contacts between differents groups, involving exchanges of skills and political-economical alliances where females were part of the deal, not only as « stuff » but also as honour hostages and guarantee of peace, at least for the high classes ones. It seems it was not so seldom in Antiquity.
    4° I’m afraid we are far from the reality if we believe males quietly stayed on place and sent their wives and daughters as ambassadors. We have more than one mobility : collective moves for new lands involving men and wives but surely decided by prominent males as a rule ; marriages all around with females taken outside too closely related villages (low statute) or outside the region for political/economical purposes (high statute) ; young (male) warriors searching adventure and glory with raids, taking foreign females « on the road », sometimes returning home with them, even if the first aim was not chasing wives.
    What I think I’m guessing in the BBC ‘s multi-aspects question is that males moves sometimes very far and fast, with or without return. Females moved on shortest distances and withouth this romantic « freedom » of female pioneers alleged by someones. So, long distances moves towards limited numbers of directions for males (and some of their previous females) with often changes of country and times of stability over several générations (migration) opposed to permanent moves for females at each generation and on every direction. Evidently some specific groups of men moves more constantly and on every direction for precise purposes (metal ores, trade etc...)
    We could see too differences between Strontium variations and auDN variations because the females, spite coming from far enough place, could have had more and more similar DNA as time passed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    The exogamy and females mobility question :
    Since some time I read papers or abstracts about this. It seems to me the perspective is somehow wrung in readers heads.
    1° I doubt that the most of distances between their birthplaces and new living places would have exceded 70/80 km a sa rule.
    2° I doubt these females would have been the whole culture transmettors in these patrilocal and viril warlike societies even if we may suppose some of the household usages came with them.
    3° I rather think the cultural changes could have been the results of contacts between differents groups, involving exchanges of skills and political-economical alliances where females were part of the deal, not only as « stuff » but also as honour hostages and guarantee of peace, at least for the high classes ones. It seems it was not so seldom in Antiquity.
    4° I’m afraid we are far from the reality if we believe males quietly stayed on place and sent their wives and daughters as ambassadors. We have more than one mobility : collective moves for new lands involving men and wives but surely decided by prominent males as a rule ; marriages all around with females taken outside too closely related villages (low statute) or outside the region for political/economical purposes (high statute) ; young (male) warriors searching adventure and glory with raids, taking foreign females « on the road », sometimes returning home with them, even if the first aim was not chasing wives.
    What I think I’m guessing in the BBC ‘s multi-aspects question is that males moves sometimes very far and fast, with or without return. Females moved on shortest distances and withouth this romantic « freedom » of female pioneers alleged by someones. So, long distances moves towards limited numbers of directions for males (and some of their previous females) with often changes of country and times of stability over several générations (migration) opposed to permanent moves for females at each generation and on every direction. Evidently some specific groups of men moves more constantly and on every direction for precise purposes (metal ores, trade etc...)
    We could see too differences between Strontium variations and auDN variations because the females, spite coming from far enough place, could have had more and more similar DNA as time passed.
    Excellent post. I think all of this is right on the mark.

    The paper itself, copies of which are circulating, is very confusing in my opinion. One of the things they found is that these "foreign" wives didn't seem to have offspring, because they found no samples with that same mtDna. That makes no sense to me. Why would they go to the bother of exchanging brides or goods for a bride, and then she isn't mated to one of the elite men? Something is wrong with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Excellent post. I think all of this is right on the mark.

    The paper itself, copies of which are circulating, is very confusing in my opinion. One of the things they found is that these "foreign" wives didn't seem to have offspring, because they found no samples with that same mtDna. That makes no sense to me. Why would they go to the bother of exchanging brides or goods for a bride, and then she isn't mated to one of the elite men? Something is wrong with this.
    Wow, this changes a lot. They could have been slaves.
    Just a wild guess, because I didn't have time tread the paper.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Wow, this changes a lot. They could have been slaves.
    Just a wild guess, because I didn't have time tread the paper.
    Or we just found out why bell beakers were so successful in their expansion.... their children not allowed to remain in the tribe? all youngster (both boys and girls) born from foreigners had to form a new pride and leave? like wolves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there is however no species where the male is so lazy and so well-fed compared to the lionesses
    the main concern for the male lion is to obstruct other nomadic males from entering the group
    for some reason which is not clear to me the lionesses accept the male lion for the role he is playing
    Maybe they haven't heard of the progressive benefits that women's studies and 3rd wave feminism has to offer to the oppressed sex? I would encourage all western academic feminists to travel to Africa and teach these lionesses firsthand of the suffrage and fight for female rights.

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The abject stupidity of this post should speak for itself, but just in case...

    The closest things to a matriarchy Europe ever saw were the Neolithic societies prior to the arrival of steppe peoples. Even those were not actually total matriarchies, but certainly different from the patriarchies which succeeded them.
    Who said that these societies were closer to matriarchy? Gimbutas, who saw in them the cult of the goddess-mother in opposition to the male deities of Indo-Europeans? This is the level of knowledge of the 1970s. In fact, the old Neolithic Middle Eastern societies were much tougher in their attitude towards women. All the chronicling European gain opressing of women came from the Middle East. Whether it is the period of Greece's orientalisation or adoption of Abrahamic religion in Europe. This of course does not say that the Indo-European societies were equitable, nevertheless the role of the woman there was different. Therefore, it is not surprising that Europe has fairly easily accepted gender equality, while on the territories of ancient Neolithic societies there is still insanity about women's rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In such a society, to suggest that a woman could independently decide to pack up her daughters and move elsewhere is the height of ABSURDITY
    In some Yamnaya's burials there are skeletons of women with stone steles, a wagon and knife. That is, they were women rulers and even women warriors. Yes, such graves are found several times less than men's, but the fact is that they were. This indicates the role of women in Indo-European society, contrary to myths.
    Last edited by Dov; 09-09-17 at 15:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Who said that these societies were closer to matriarchy? Gimbutas, who saw in them the cult of the goddess-mother in opposition to the male deities of Indo-Europeans? This is the level of knowledge of the 1970s. In fact, the old Neolithic Middle Eastern societies were much tougher in their attitude towards women. All the chronicling European gain opressing of women came from the Middle East. Whether it is the period of Greece's orientalisation or adoption of Abrahamic religion in Europe. This of course does not say that the Indo-European societies were equitable, nevertheless the role of the woman there was different. Therefore, it is not surprising that Europe has fairly easily accepted gender equality, while on the territories of ancient Neolithic societies there is still insanity about women's rights.


    In some Yamnaya's burials there are skeletons of women with stone steles, a wagon and knife. That is, they were women rulers and even women warriors. Yes, such graves are found several times less than men's, but the fact is that they were. This indicates the role of women in Indo-European society, contrary to myths.
    Right, in short 500 years, and still process is not fully finished.

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