Gencove

[Pratt]

in several GEDmatch calculators a criteria to tell north_italian from south_italian is actually by east-med / west_med proportions not so much by other proportions;

Not really.

 

[alexfritz]

Thanks for the info! I always assumed northern Italians would plot closer to Central Europeans. You score 40% Southeastern Europe on FTDNA. I always assumed there was a large farming component in the West and Central Europe category and that Southeastern was more Mediterranean than Northern Italian. I wonder what Angela scored on FTDNA if she ever took that specific test.

My mom is French Canadian and scored 99% West and Central Europe and French people have a significant Neolithic farming component.

cant find the link anymore, but someone gave me a link as to what the myOrigins is modeled on and if i remember it correctly than West and Central incl french-swiss and southeastern the sardinians; and if there is one pattern i have noticed by my results is that i am wherever the sardinians are in gencove southwestern in myorigins southeastern in genographic southern and the K25/K29 on geneplaza underlined it all just nicely; i assumed that solely based on the academic data, guess not the wrongest reference to go by; not sure about french but with sardinian you can be certain that EEF goes hand in hand;

Not really.

yes, really is the case;

 

[Angela]

Eurogenes calculators are terrible for Italians, so I wouldn't rely on them for any trends...

That whole "East Med" category is bogus as far as I'm concerned, unless by East Med is meant Greece and the Aegean islands. If people want to look at SW Asian, then look at that. If they want to look at Caucasus, then look at that. In terms of Caucasus, Italians, even Southern Italians, don't have any more Caucasus than Balkan people. Southern Italians have a bit more SW Asian.

The only calculator that shows a true percentage for West Med versus East Med in a European context is, imo, the ancient dna one done by Kurd. The "eastern" farmers stretched from the Aegean/western Turkey into Central Europe. The SWestern one of which I got a lot is based on a lot of late Neolithic Spanish samples and so has at least 20% WHG. Both Cardial/Impressa and the mainland Balkans farmers started out in the same general area so I doubt that they were all that different, although it would be nice to have a full genome analysis of a Cardial/ Impressa sample. By the late Neolithic, I think some additional gene flow from perhaps Anatolia into the Balkans and then perhaps from there into Italy, brought some additional CHG, but some analyses show a bit of CHG even in LBK.

That Eurogenes terminology obfuscates more than it illuminates, imo.

 

[davef]

Alex says:
"and if there is one pattern i have noticed by my results is that i am wherever the sardinians are in gencove southwestern in myorigins southeastern in genographic southern and the K25/K29 on geneplaza underlined it all just nicely"

sorry, I didn't get any of that

 

[alexfritz]

Alex says:
"and if there is one pattern i have noticed by my results is that i am wherever the sardinians are in gencove southwestern in myorigins southeastern in genographic southern and the K25/K29 on geneplaza underlined it all just nicely"

sorry, I didn't get any of that

what exactly?

 

[davef]

what exactly?

That entire quote. I can't decipher it.

 

[alexfritz]

That entire quote. I can't decipher it.

just so there are no misunderstandings i am not complaining/questioning any of my results in fact being half central european and half south european i think all my results are spot on; i like them a lot;

as for the quote, if i understood it correctly than clusters are based on populations and if such a cluster incl the sardinians my southern half always scores/corresponds with that cluster as should be for north italian (academic based); a quick example there was a calculator called K25 and on that calculator was a cluster called sardinian-sicilian, now not many people scored it and app a lot complained not scoring it so the creator in bold fat letters (mwauthy knows what im talking about) explained that the reason not many score it is because the sardinians are isolated yet if someone did score it it would indicate shared drift with the isolated sardinians and even claimed that that is synonymous with EEF; i scored proper 27% of that sardinian drift (only half north italian!) so it is just a pattern i have noticed by my own results which corresponds to academic results;

seems as if anthrogenica is knocked out again, when it works i link the link of the creator to you via PM;

 

[Sile]

47% Southwestern Europe
40% Northern and Central Europe
5% Eastern Mediterranean
5% Northeast Europe
3% Iran Caucasus Anatolia

Gencove is like many who note these areas

SW Europe = iberia , southern france and NW Italy representing the Gallic influence

NW Europe = north france, Britain, swiss , austria, lombard and NE italy, denmark and germany

Greece and albania with southern Italy

Others place bulgari, romania and hungaria seperate ...gencove does not

the top 3 I have seen on many occasions by many companies

 

[Angela]

It was a Sardinian/Sicilian cluster. IT WAS NOT JUST SARDINIAN.

It could as well mean closeness to Sicilians.

 

[alexfritz]

It was a Sardinian/Sicilian cluster. IT WAS NOT JUST SARDINIAN.

It could as well mean closeness to Sicilians.

def not in my case i score 0.0% sicilian k29 yet 27% sardinian-sicilian k25 (the pattern); when anthrogenica works again ill link to the creators explanation #533 of sardinian-sicilian being sardinian 'original population drift' meaning you can read it first hand (from the creator);

@Sile
for the two clusters you mentioned gencove writes the following

Southwestern Europe

Reference populations: Southern French, Spanish, Basque, and Sardinian.

Northern and Central Europe

Reference populations: Norwegian, Orcadian, Scottish, British, Icelandic.

 

[mwauthy]

just so there are no misunderstandings i am not complaining/questioning any of my results in fact being half central european and half south european i think all my results are spot on; i like them a lot;

as for the quote, if i understood it correctly than clusters are based on populations and if such a cluster incl the sardinians my southern half always scores/corresponds with that cluster as should be for north italian (academic based); a quick example there was a calculator called K25 and on that calculator was a cluster called sardinian-sicilian, now not many people scored it and app a lot complained not scoring it so the creator in bold fat letters (mwauthy knows what im talking about) explained that the reason not many score it is because the sardinians are isolated yet if someone did score it it would indicate shared drift with the isolated sardinians and even claimed that that is synonymous with EEF; i scored proper 27% of that sardinian drift (only half north italian!) so it is just a pattern i have noticed by my own results which corresponds to academic results;

seems as if anthrogenica is knocked out again, when it works i link the link of the creator to you via PM;

So according to Gencove northern Italians and Sardinians are more similar to Iberians, but on FTDNA they are more similar to Greeks? Which is more accurate according to the academic papers?

 

[davef]

Don't have much time to browse, but I doubt north Italians are similar to any Greeks at all, Greece is way closer to south Italy and Albania

 

[mwauthy]

cant find the link anymore, but someone gave me a link as to what the myOrigins is modeled on and if i remember it correctly than West and Central incl french-swiss and southeastern the sardinians; and if there is one pattern i have noticed by my results is that i am wherever the sardinians are in gencove southwestern in myorigins southeastern in genographic southern and the K25/K29 on geneplaza underlined it all just nicely; i assumed that solely based on the academic data, guess not the wrongest reference to go by; not sure about french but with sardinian you can be certain that EEF goes hand in hand;



yes, really is the case;

I’m curious as to what exactly the “Iberian” category entails on FTDNA? It used to be part of “Southern Europe” prior to 2.0. It doesn’t seem to include southwest France since my mom and I received 0% Iberian. It doesn’t seem to include Sardinia either. If you could find that link your friend sent you regarding the FTDNA regions that would be awesome!

 

[Sile]

def not in my case i score 0.0% sicilian k29 yet 27% sardinian-sicilian k25 (the pattern); when anthrogenica works again ill link to the creators explanation #533 of sardinian-sicilian being sardinian 'original population drift' meaning you can read it first hand (from the creator);

@Sile
for the two clusters you mentioned gencove writes the following

Southwestern Europe

Reference populations: Southern French, Spanish, Basque, and Sardinian.

Northern and Central Europe

Reference populations: Norwegian, Orcadian, Scottish, British, Icelandic.

my Gencove


37% Eastern Mediterranean
37% Northern and Central Europe
23% Southwestern Europe


I have never had more than 2% iberian on any company.........but have had a high percentage of French-basque from many companies ............maybe my 23% SW Europe is that they used all the border people of Spain and France as iberians

 

[Pax Augusta]

So according to Gencove northern Italians and Sardinians are more similar to Iberians, but on FTDNA they are more similar to Greeks? Which is more accurate according to the academic papers?

FTDNA is quite ridiculous.

 

[Angela]

According to Gencove, northeastern and north central Italy seem to be Northern and Central European like, and northwestern Italy all the way down through Tuscany is Iberian like. In central Lombardia there's some overlap. That's going by the map upthread.

I've given up on results from these companies. I'm totally typical for where I come from, always placing midway between Bergamo and TSI samples. Academic studies of ancient dna tell me and will tell me how I got that way.

These companies are making all sorts of subjective decisions as to which clusters they'll use, and therefore the results are all different. It just confuses most people. That said, some tend to be better than others. I never tested at FTDNA because, indeed, as Pax says, they seemed ridiculous. For goodness sakes, in the beginning, and even now for all I know they use Ashkenazim, with their perhaps 60% European as a reference for the Middle East. McDonald used to do the same. That is completely NUTS.

The only thing I'll give gencove is that it duplicates all the Mid-to-late Spanish like Neolithic and Chalcolithic that I found through Kurd's ancient samples calculator. That doesn't mean a migration from Spain to Northwest Italy, for anyone who is wondering.

 

[Jovialis]

According to Gencove, northeastern and north central Italy seem to be Northern and Central European like, and northwestern Italy all the way down through Tuscany is Iberian like. In central Lombardia there's some overlap. That's going by the map upthread.
I've given up on results from these companies. I'm totally typical for where I come from, always placing midway between Bergamo and TSI samples. Academic studies of ancient dna tell me and will tell me how I got that way.
These companies are making all sorts of subjective decisions as to which clusters they'll use, and therefore the results are all different. It just confuses most people. That said, some tend to be better than others. I never tested at FTDNA because, indeed, as Pax says, they seemed ridiculous. For goodness sakes, in the beginning, and even now for all I know they use Ashkenazim, with their perhaps 60% European as a reference for the Middle East. McDonald used to do the same. That is completely NUTS.
The only thing I'll give gencove is that it duplicates all the Mid-to-late Spanish like Neolithic and Chalcolithic that I found through Kurd's ancient samples calculator. That doesn't mean a migration from Spain to Northwest Italy, for anyone who is wondering.

Absolutely true, even in this dumb commercial they perpetuate this misconception. This guy says he thought he was German, which he definitely is since he apparently knows his lineage. Yet, he actually thinks he's Scottish, and not German at all just because the test uses that population as a reference for populations that overlap between West Germany, and Scotland. I think some of this is for marketing purposes, so they can sell to people who may be surprised by their results, by finding something they think they didn't know about. At least that's what I'm getting from this commercial. The geneticists behind the test certainly know the truth behind what those reference populations actually imply. I get that its a business, and they want to make money, but this is not useful to people unless they are more adept in understanding how to gauge the results. Certain limitations on how to compose the algorithm is one thing. But to sell the results from these limitations, as they do in this commercial, as some kind of fact is just unethical. People should be informed that these reference populations don't necessarily mean that they come from these areas.

 

[davef]

Absolutely true, even in this dumb commercial they perpetuate this misconception. This guy says he thought he was German, which he definitely is since he apparently knows his lineage. Yet, he actually thinks he's Scottish, and not German at all just because the test uses that population as a reference for populations that overlap between West Germany, and Scotland. I think some of this is for marketing purposes, so they can sell to people who may be surprised by their results, by finding something they think they didn't know about. At least that's what I'm getting from this commercial. The geneticists behind the test certainly know the truth behind what those reference populations actually imply. I get that its a business, and they want to make money, but this is not useful to people unless they are more adept in understanding how to gauge the results.

Thats committing fraud on their part, unless they try to explain why this would happen in a simple but informative way. I doubt Bobby Joe has any desire to dig deep through a textbook on genetics.

 

[mwauthy]

Thats committing fraud on their part, unless they try to explain why this would happen in a simple but informative way. I doubt Bobby Joe has any desire to dig deep through a textbook on genetics.

Yeah! None of these tests can tell you where exactly your ancestors were born and should not be used to override a paper trail like in that commercial. All these tests can do is show certain allele frequencies based on subjective regional groupings. For the average layman unaware of that they are going to waste a lot of time looking for a “lost ancestor” in their paper trail that doesn’t exist. For example, being French I get around 25% Iberian on many calculators. If I knew nothing about the genetic history of these regions I would be looking for a Spanish grand parent in my family tree.

It’s also misleading to call it an “ethnicity” estimate. A person’s ethnicity has no correlation with their alleles. For example, my ethnicity is United States. Ethnicities can also be generational and who knows what someone’s ethnicity was during the Bronze Age. These tests should be called allele frequency estimators.

 

[alexfritz]

So according to Gencove northern Italians and Sardinians are more similar to Iberians, but on FTDNA they are more similar to Greeks? Which is more accurate according to the academic papers?

no, you skipped the part about sardinians actually being a part of that cluster #50 at gencove; the other south cluster is a wild mash up from bulgarians > sicilians so not sure what the artist is trying to tell us with that, but it could correspond to gedmatch gradient of west_med / east_med proportions in confirming it; there is no such thing as an/one italian cluster thus the calc-creators have to decide between the two main ones north_it/tuscan or south_it/sicilian it seems as if 23andme went for the latter yet myHeritage for the former; in toto diff calcs diff clusters, hence you have to look at the ref pops used in each cluster of each calc and academic papers/info will than explain/reveal the dynamics behind it;

I’m curious as to what exactly the “Iberian” category entails on FTDNA? It used to be part of “Southern Europe” prior to 2.0. It doesn’t seem to include southwest France since my mom and I received 0% Iberian. It doesn’t seem to include Sardinia either. If you could find that link your friend sent you regarding the FTDNA regions that would be awesome!

dont know i dont score it, the sardinians are part of the 'southeastern';
it seems i lost the link, you have to go onto the FTDNA forum (or gedmatch?) and ask for a spreadsheet, i did that back in june maybe they still have it; there is also the 'LearningCenter' on FTDNA (but it is not the link)
https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/user-guide/family-finder-myftdna/myorigins-population-clusters/