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Thread: Gencove

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    just so there are no misunderstandings i am not complaining/questioning any of my results in fact being half central european and half south european i think all my results are spot on; i like them a lot;

    as for the quote, if i understood it correctly than clusters are based on populations and if such a cluster incl the sardinians my southern half always scores/corresponds with that cluster as should be for north italian (academic based); a quick example there was a calculator called K25 and on that calculator was a cluster called sardinian-sicilian, now not many people scored it and app a lot complained not scoring it so the creator in bold fat letters (mwauthy knows what im talking about) explained that the reason not many score it is because the sardinians are isolated yet if someone did score it it would indicate shared drift with the isolated sardinians and even claimed that that is synonymous with EEF; i scored proper 27% of that sardinian drift (only half north italian!) so it is just a pattern i have noticed by my own results which corresponds to academic results;

    seems as if anthrogenica is knocked out again, when it works i link the link of the creator to you via PM;
    So according to Gencove northern Italians and Sardinians are more similar to Iberians, but on FTDNA they are more similar to Greeks? Which is more accurate according to the academic papers?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Don't have much time to browse, but I doubt north Italians are similar to any Greeks at all, Greece is way closer to south Italy and Albania
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    cant find the link anymore, but someone gave me a link as to what the myOrigins is modeled on and if i remember it correctly than West and Central incl french-swiss and southeastern the sardinians; and if there is one pattern i have noticed by my results is that i am wherever the sardinians are in gencove southwestern in myorigins southeastern in genographic southern and the K25/K29 on geneplaza underlined it all just nicely; i assumed that solely based on the academic data, guess not the wrongest reference to go by; not sure about french but with sardinian you can be certain that EEF goes hand in hand;



    yes, really is the case;
    I’m curious as to what exactly the “Iberian” category entails on FTDNA? It used to be part of “Southern Europe” prior to 2.0. It doesn’t seem to include southwest France since my mom and I received 0% Iberian. It doesn’t seem to include Sardinia either. If you could find that link your friend sent you regarding the FTDNA regions that would be awesome!

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    def not in my case i score 0.0% sicilian k29 yet 27% sardinian-sicilian k25 (the pattern); when anthrogenica works again ill link to the creators explanation #533 of sardinian-sicilian being sardinian 'original population drift' meaning you can read it first hand (from the creator);

    @Sile
    for the two clusters you mentioned gencove writes the following

    Southwestern Europe

    Reference populations: Southern French, Spanish, Basque, and Sardinian.

    Northern and Central Europe

    Reference populations: Norwegian, Orcadian, Scottish, British, Icelandic.


    my Gencove


    37% Eastern Mediterranean
    37% Northern and Central Europe
    23% Southwestern Europe


    I have never had more than 2% iberian on any company.........but have had a high percentage of French-basque from many companies ............maybe my 23% SW Europe is that they used all the border people of Spain and France as iberians
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    So according to Gencove northern Italians and Sardinians are more similar to Iberians, but on FTDNA they are more similar to Greeks? Which is more accurate according to the academic papers?
    FTDNA is quite ridiculous.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    According to Gencove, northeastern and north central Italy seem to be Northern and Central European like, and northwestern Italy all the way down through Tuscany is Iberian like. In central Lombardia there's some overlap. That's going by the map upthread.

    I've given up on results from these companies. I'm totally typical for where I come from, always placing midway between Bergamo and TSI samples. Academic studies of ancient dna tell me and will tell me how I got that way.

    These companies are making all sorts of subjective decisions as to which clusters they'll use, and therefore the results are all different. It just confuses most people. That said, some tend to be better than others. I never tested at FTDNA because, indeed, as Pax says, they seemed ridiculous. For goodness sakes, in the beginning, and even now for all I know they use Ashkenazim, with their perhaps 60% European as a reference for the Middle East. McDonald used to do the same. That is completely NUTS.

    The only thing I'll give gencove is that it duplicates all the Mid-to-late Spanish like Neolithic and Chalcolithic that I found through Kurd's ancient samples calculator. That doesn't mean a migration from Spain to Northwest Italy, for anyone who is wondering.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    According to Gencove, northeastern and north central Italy seem to be Northern and Central European like, and northwestern Italy all the way down through Tuscany is Iberian like. In central Lombardia there's some overlap. That's going by the map upthread.
    I've given up on results from these companies. I'm totally typical for where I come from, always placing midway between Bergamo and TSI samples. Academic studies of ancient dna tell me and will tell me how I got that way.
    These companies are making all sorts of subjective decisions as to which clusters they'll use, and therefore the results are all different. It just confuses most people. That said, some tend to be better than others. I never tested at FTDNA because, indeed, as Pax says, they seemed ridiculous. For goodness sakes, in the beginning, and even now for all I know they use Ashkenazim, with their perhaps 60% European as a reference for the Middle East. McDonald used to do the same. That is completely NUTS.
    The only thing I'll give gencove is that it duplicates all the Mid-to-late Spanish like Neolithic and Chalcolithic that I found through Kurd's ancient samples calculator. That doesn't mean a migration from Spain to Northwest Italy, for anyone who is wondering.


    Absolutely true, even in this dumb commercial they perpetuate this misconception. This guy says he thought he was German, which he definitely is since he apparently knows his lineage. Yet, he actually thinks he's Scottish, and not German at all just because the test uses that population as a reference for populations that overlap between West Germany, and Scotland. I think some of this is for marketing purposes, so they can sell to people who may be surprised by their results, by finding something they think they didn't know about. At least that's what I'm getting from this commercial. The geneticists behind the test certainly know the truth behind what those reference populations actually imply. I get that its a business, and they want to make money, but this is not useful to people unless they are more adept in understanding how to gauge the results. Certain limitations on how to compose the algorithm is one thing. But to sell the results from these limitations, as they do in this commercial, as some kind of fact is just unethical. People should be informed that these reference populations don't necessarily mean that they come from these areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Absolutely true, even in this dumb commercial they perpetuate this misconception. This guy says he thought he was German, which he definitely is since he apparently knows his lineage. Yet, he actually thinks he's Scottish, and not German at all just because the test uses that population as a reference for populations that overlap between West Germany, and Scotland. I think some of this is for marketing purposes, so they can sell to people who may be surprised by their results, by finding something they think they didn't know about. At least that's what I'm getting from this commercial. The geneticists behind the test certainly know the truth behind what those reference populations actually imply. I get that its a business, and they want to make money, but this is not useful to people unless they are more adept in understanding how to gauge the results.
    Thats committing fraud on their part, unless they try to explain why this would happen in a simple but informative way. I doubt Bobby Joe has any desire to dig deep through a textbook on genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Thats committing fraud on their part, unless they try to explain why this would happen in a simple but informative way. I doubt Bobby Joe has any desire to dig deep through a textbook on genetics.
    Yeah! None of these tests can tell you where exactly your ancestors were born and should not be used to override a paper trail like in that commercial. All these tests can do is show certain allele frequencies based on subjective regional groupings. For the average layman unaware of that they are going to waste a lot of time looking for a “lost ancestor” in their paper trail that doesn’t exist. For example, being French I get around 25% Iberian on many calculators. If I knew nothing about the genetic history of these regions I would be looking for a Spanish grand parent in my family tree.

    It’s also misleading to call it an “ethnicity” estimate. A person’s ethnicity has no correlation with their alleles. For example, my ethnicity is United States. Ethnicities can also be generational and who knows what someone’s ethnicity was during the Bronze Age. These tests should be called allele frequency estimators.
    Last edited by mwauthy; 21-12-17 at 23:33. Reason: Addition

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    So according to Gencove northern Italians and Sardinians are more similar to Iberians, but on FTDNA they are more similar to Greeks? Which is more accurate according to the academic papers?
    no, you skipped the part about sardinians actually being a part of that cluster #50 at gencove; the other south cluster is a wild mash up from bulgarians > sicilians so not sure what the artist is trying to tell us with that, but it could correspond to gedmatch gradient of west_med / east_med proportions in confirming it; there is no such thing as an/one italian cluster thus the calc-creators have to decide between the two main ones north_it/tuscan or south_it/sicilian it seems as if 23andme went for the latter yet myHeritage for the former; in toto diff calcs diff clusters, hence you have to look at the ref pops used in each cluster of each calc and academic papers/info will than explain/reveal the dynamics behind it;

    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    I’m curious as to what exactly the “Iberian” category entails on FTDNA? It used to be part of “Southern Europe” prior to 2.0. It doesn’t seem to include southwest France since my mom and I received 0% Iberian. It doesn’t seem to include Sardinia either. If you could find that link your friend sent you regarding the FTDNA regions that would be awesome!
    dont know i dont score it, the sardinians are part of the 'southeastern';
    it seems i lost the link, you have to go onto the FTDNA forum (or gedmatch?) and ask for a spreadsheet, i did that back in june maybe they still have it; there is also the 'LearningCenter' on FTDNA (but it is not the link)
    https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/...tion-clusters/

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    no, you skipped the part about sardinians actually being a part of that cluster #50 at gencove; the other south cluster is a wild mash up from bulgarians > sicilians so not sure what the artist is trying to tell us with that, but it could correspond to gedmatch gradient of west_med / east_med proportions in confirming it; there is no such thing as an/one italian cluster thus the calc-creators have to decide between the two main ones north_it/tuscan or south_it/sicilian it seems as if 23andme went for the latter yet myHeritage for the former; in toto diff calcs diff clusters, hence you have to look at the ref pops used in each cluster of each calc and academic papers/info will than explain/reveal the dynamics behind it;
    dont know i dont score it, the sardinians are part of the 'southeastern';
    it seems i lost the link, you have to go onto the FTDNA forum (or gedmatch?) and ask for a spreadsheet, i did that back in june maybe they still have it; there is also the 'LearningCenter' on FTDNA (but it is not the link)
    https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/...tion-clusters/
    What happened to the fun-fact?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    What happened to the fun-fact?
    the myheritage results? anthrogenica is still down no link possible to the sikeliot posts, when it works again ill link it all; would make more sense in that way (with a link attached);

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    Why did you omit it from your post? Just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Anthrogenica was taken down by his post??????

    I thought you said you got the information courtesy of him.
    ??? what ?
    well he didnt give them to me he posted them public but yes courtesy of sikeliot you can find a lot of myHeritage results south italians and sicilians in that thread on anthrogenica; revealing a diff dynamic in this calc from other calcs despite same populations, now is that more fun with or without a link?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    ??? what ?
    well he didnt give them to me he posted them public but yes courtesy of sikeliot you can find a lot of myHeritage results south italians and sicilians in that thread on anathrogenica; revealing a diff dynamic in this calc from other calcs despite same populations, now is that more fun with or without a link?
    Well if you understand how these calculators are made, the centrum for what is "Italian" can be different from test to test. Myheritage claiming that one is more than another means absolutely nothing. Fun right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Well if you understand how these calculators are made, the centrum for what is "Italian" can be different from test to test. Myheritage claiming that one is more than another means absolutely nothing. Fun right?
    exactly, and exactly what i wrote #60; myHeritage (judging by the results/ but no link) defined their 'italian' based on the north_it/tuscan cluster hence that is what that means, and why so many south italians and sicilians do not score it in large amounts several in fact as dismal 10% and maybe now youll understand that all of those fun-facts would make so much more sense with the according link attached, but the link does not work;

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    exactly, and exactly what i wrote #60; myHeritage (judging by the results/ but no link) defined their 'italian' based on the north_it/tuscan cluster hence that is what that means, and why so many south italians and sicilians do not score it in large amounts several in fact as dismal 10% and maybe now youll understand that all of those fun-facts would make so much more sense with the according link attached, but the link does not work;
    Probably better off not working, since its a garbage assessment.

    10% that's a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Probably better off not working, since its a garbage assessment.

    10% that's a joke.
    well now you have your answer as to why i omitted it, because there is no point in discussing numbers from a link that does not work meaning if you had the link yourself you could make your own assessment and when it works i will give you that link, basically just results sikeliot posted (i think he even created a spreadsheet);

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    will give you that link, basically just results sikeliot posted (i think he even created a spreadsheet);
    Ok, now everything is clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    exactly, and exactly what i wrote #60; myHeritage (judging by the results/ but no link) defined their 'italian' based on the north_it/tuscan cluster hence that is what that means, and why so many south italians and sicilians do not score it in large amounts several in fact as dismal 10% and maybe now youll understand that all of those fun-facts would make so much more sense with the according link attached, but the link does not work;
    DNA Land has its own Sardinian category that’s separate from northern Italy, Sicily, and Southwestern Europe. I’m curious as to what your DNA Land scores are?

    I think K29 lacked a Northern Italian cluster because my Dad gets 27% South/Central European on DNA Land and 21% Italian on Myheritage, yet on K29 he gets Southwestern Europe instead.
    Last edited by mwauthy; 22-12-17 at 01:38. Reason: Addition

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    @Pax,

    It certainly is.

    If people don't know enough by now to realize that everything depends on where the centrum is placed, i.e. a somewhat subjective decision, and that therefore judgments like who is more "Italian", or "French" or anything else shouldn't even be a topic of discussion, then they shouldn't be holding forth on matters genetic. The judgments of anyone who does that sort of thing should be automatically discounted both on that topic and anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    DNA Land has its own Sardinian category that’s separate from northern Italy, Sicily, and Southwestern Europe. I’m curious as to what your DNA Land scores are?

    I think K29 lacked a Northern Italian cluster because my Dad gets 27% South/Central European on DNA Land and 21% Italian on Myheritage, yet on K29 he gets Southwestern Europe instead.
    practically diffused between the two clusters east med(levantine) and west med(south europe)+ sardinian on their own;
    S6pDcl3.jpg

    at myHeritage i get ~33% italian and 7.9% greek and at K29 it is all 37% greek-albanian but these are two different calculators with different definitions and clusters and kurd explained that if you remove the cluster which has the most dominant allele sharing which was sardinian-siclian in k25 you will be assigned to the second most dominant obv greek-albanian k29;

    PS: do you know what happened to anthrogenica? did get hacked again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    practically diffused between the two clusters east med(levantine) and west med(south europe)+ sardinian on their own;
    S6pDcl3.jpg
    at myHeritage i get ~33% italian and 7.9% greek and at K29 it is all 37% greek-albanian but these are two different calculators with different definitions and clusters and kurd explained that if you remove the cluster which has the most dominant allele sharing which was sardinian-siclian in k25 you will be assigned to the second most dominant obv greek-albanian k29;
    PS: do you know what happened to anthrogenica? did get hacked again?
    That’s interesting because you received almost an equal amount from all 4 regions in the Italian/Mediterranean area and 0% Southwestern. I’m starting to lean towards DNA Land being one of the more reputable calculators.

    Interesting that your northern Italian got assigned to Greek on k29 and my dad’s northern Italian got assigned to Southwestern.

    I have no idea about Anthrogenica. It’s just a blank white screen on my phone when I try to access the website.
    Last edited by mwauthy; 22-12-17 at 02:11. Reason: Addition

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    That’s interesting because you received almost an equal amount from all 4 regions in the Italian/Mediterranean area and 0% Southwestern. I’m starting to lean towards DNA Land being one of the more reputable calculators.

    Interesting that your northern Italian got assigned to Greek on k29 and my dad’s northern Italian got assigned to Southwestern.

    I have no idea about Anthrogenica. It’s just a blank white screen on my phone when I try to access the website.
    fully agree i think DNA.Land might even be the most detailed for south european ancestry yet the way i see it i do view all calcs (i tested with at least) as equal reputable; maybe its a shift between CHG/WHG which tilts the north_italian either side? though in my case it was first mostly assigned to sardinian-sicilian k25 and once the sardinians were removed it than got further assigned to greek-albanian k29 and in that regard i am seeing something like this haak et al 5way mixture EEF/EN based;
    XYh0K7A.png

    same here, anthrogenica is just blank though the activity stream reads an error code, not sure but i read in report that someones security software picked something up shortly before it blanked;

  25. #75
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    To throw in my two cents here, I had the impression that Gencove was trying to be better at detecting ancestry at the continental resolution. If you go through their website they have an affiliation with an effort to sequence more South Asians. So, they may be paring down the number of European components to allow more clusters elsewhere?

    I actually took the plunge and submitted a sample for their own analysis. They are doing sparse sequencing as opposed to using the SNP specific chips. I'm curious to see the difference, but their low coverage sequencing hits way more bases on the DNA and Joe Pickrell makes what seems to me a good case for it (https://medium.com/the-seeq-blog/it-...g-73535efa66ed). I guess I'll find out in late Jan if it makes any difference at all.

    In the mean-time, here is what I got from Gencove for my 23andMe v4 data:

    Attachment 9562

    Aside from the Ashkenazi, which is nonesense and probably just a poorly chosen grouping, the rest is pretty consistent with what I have seen in other calculators and what I know of my ancestry.

    As for the motivations of the big testing companies and the sometimes bizzaro advertisements they do, just consider this:

    Ancestry is tied to the Mormons. They have an obsession with genealogy and genetic genealogy makes a lot of sense. Their end game is not figuring out your admixture. They want more people that can be linked together via DNA to build their massive family tree database even more.

    23andMe: they just want your medical data because that is going to be hugely valuable to sell to pharma companies. After all, they sequence your genome for the health data regardless of whether you pay for it or not (fun fact, you can take their data and input it into other services such as promethease and get all the health data they would have sold you and more).

    Can't speak to the motivation of the others, but I personally don't think the admixtures they give you are their real end goals.

    (edited to clarify that result is from Gencove with my 23andMe data)

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