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Thread: Gencove

  1. #101
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    Why do these groups have populations that are far apart from each other? Like southwest Europe has Sardinians who are far from everyone else and east med goes from Cypriots to Bulgarians.

    I kinda brought this up before but there are still some holes to patch up. Lets consider the south west euro group, does it just take everything that's common between Sardinians, Spaniards etc and deem this pattern of genes "Southwest European"?
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Now i got
    Southwestern Europe 46%
    Northern and Central Europe 28%
    Northern Italy 12%
    Eastern Mediterranean 11%

    I still think it needs more work... Also Eastern Mediterranean doesn't make much sense??

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdeoF View Post
    Now i got
    Southwestern Europe 46%
    Northern and Central Europe 28%
    Northern Italy 12%
    Eastern Mediterranean 11%

    I still think it needs more work... Also Eastern Mediterranean doesn't make much sense??
    Click to enlarge...

    This is SE Europe:

    Attachment 9654
    Gencove-Eastern Med.jpg
    This is Southwest Europe: it includes the southern half of France and Northwest Italy. Basically, I could just add this percentage to my North Italian.

    Attachment 9656
    Gencove SouthWest Europe.jpg
    This is northern Italy. It overlaps with North Central Europe, which is probably what brought those numbers down for me.
    Gencove-Nortern Italy.jpg

    Attachment 9655

    Maybe it is sort of right for me.

    @Sile,
    Thanks.

    It works like any other Admixture program...it finds clusters. Some of the clusters overlap, which is indeed the reality.
    Last edited by Angela; 17-01-18 at 00:37.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I usually score Italian in every calc in some form or another. 14 Italian over all with LivingDNA. I wonder what is so off with their algorithm?

    In AncestryDNA for instance, their main site has be as 84% Albania/Greece/Turkey, 15% North-East Italy/Croatia/Bosnia and 1% Finnish(LOL). I am surprised by the huge South-West Euro for the Ancestry upload. My Fathers by comparison(with 23andme) is 88% Eastern Mediterranean and 12% South-West European.

    Someone mentioned people with Sardinian like admixtures are scoring South-West Europe in Gencove. It would make sense, since theres an obvious(for whatever reason) shift towards Sardinia for my father and myself.
    I don't think the problem with the Living DNA results necessarily has anything to do with their algorithm. They have uploaded a huge amount of samples from either the English or Irish Atlas, maybe both. The rest of their samples are an order of magnitude smaller. That is going to make everyone who isn't English or Irish look more "western".

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    My results on Gencove.

    61%
    Northern and Central Europe
    26%
    Eastern Mediterranean
    7%
    Northeast Europe
    3%
    Northern Italy
    2%
    Central Asia
    1%
    Southwestern Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is SE Europe:

    Attachment 9654

    This is Southwest Europe: it includes the southern half of France and Northwest Italy. Basically, I could just add this percentage to my North Italian.

    Attachment 9656

    This is northern Italy. It overlaps with North Central Europe, which is probably what brought those numbers down for me.


    Attachment 9655

    Maybe it is sort of right for me.

    @Sile,
    Thanks.

    It works like any other Admixture program...it finds clusters. Some of the clusters overlap, which is indeed the reality.
    Well ok thanks, but grouping cypriots with Bulgarians and Sardinians with anyone else is insanity.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Bulgarians and a lot of other groups in the Balkans have quite a bit more "Caucasus/Eastern Anatolia" than Northern Italians and Tuscans. They have more SW Asian than Northern Italians on some calculators, and just a bit less than Tuscans. I guess there was a migration of Samaritans to Bulgaria as well as Toscana. :)

    So much disinformation and deliberately slanted data is published on internet sites that the reality that the Balkans, and not just southern Italy and Greece share a lot with places like Cyprus and eastern Anatolia is virtually unknown.

    See, for example, the percentages for these clusters in Dodecad K12b:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...hl=en_US#gid=0

    This is why Gencove, for instance, includes not only Southern Italy, but the Balkans and Greece in its "Eastern Mediterranean" cluster, and not just parts of Anatolia.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Well ok thanks, but grouping cypriots with Bulgarians and Sardinians with anyone else is insanity.

    Insanity

    If you add a bit NorthEast Europe gens to Sardinian, you will have Bulgarian or add redsea admixture, you have Cypriot


    Yeah similarity not as much as green-red apple. Mostly like Apple and Pear so on the less selective eyes, they are same.

    --------------------------

    As a 71 % Eastern Med in Gencove, I can say that they have killed Caucasia and NorthEast Europe.

  9. #109
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    Thanks Angela and Boreas, I'll think more into those posts later!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    I'm pleased that a specific cluster has been inserted for Northern Italy. But now my results diverge considerably from the previous ones
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    mine upgraded yesterday.
    ,

    .
    starting to get closer to yfull data which has my snp dated as 1460BC.
    Yfull matches for me relating to this gencove data
    1x Hessian germany
    3x walloon and lorraine france ...........these could be close relatives to each other
    1x south tyrol italy
    1x spain Pyrenees area Mediterranean side
    .
    note: central asia is 1% ..........other sites have me as 0.8% for it
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How did you people get your maps to post?
    For what it's worth:
    • 57%Northern Italy
    • 29%Southwestern Europe
    • 7%Northern and Central Europe
    • 7%Anatolia, Caucasus, Iranian Plateau

    It's not bad, but if I didn't know my identity, this wouldn't tell me. The Northern Europe numbers go down, and the Anatolia, Caucasus shows up. Have no idea what that means.
    Mine (FTDNA / 23andMe)

    Northern and Central Europe: 44% / 43%
    Eastern Mediterranean: 29% / 33%
    Northern Italy: 23% / 13%
    Southwestern Europe: 4% / 8%
    Ashkenazi Jewish: 0% / 2%
    Central Asia: 0% / 1%

    Father (23andMe)

    Northern Italy: 32%
    Northern and Central Europe: 31%
    Southwestern Europe: 16%
    Eastern Mediterranean: 11%
    Ashkenazi Jewish: 5%
    Northern British Isles: 4%
    Central Asia: 1%

    Mother (23andMe)

    Northern and Central Europe: 33%
    Eastern Mediterranean: 28%
    Northern Italy: 28%
    Southwestern Europe: 11%

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Mine (FTDNA / 23andMe)

    Northern and Central Europe: 44% / 43%
    Eastern Mediterranean: 29% / 33%
    Northern Italy: 23% / 13%
    Southwestern Europe: 4% / 8%
    Ashkenazi Jewish: 0% / 2%
    Central Asia: 0% / 1%

    Father (23andMe)

    Northern Italy: 32%
    Northern and Central Europe: 31%
    Southwestern Europe: 16%
    Eastern Mediterranean: 11%
    Ashkenazi Jewish: 5%
    Northern British Isles: 4%
    Central Asia: 1%

    Mother (23andMe)

    Northern and Central Europe: 33%
    Eastern Mediterranean: 28%
    Northern Italy: 28%
    Southwestern Europe: 11%
    Dang! North Italy as low as 13 percent!

    If this doesnt get a reaction from Angela..

    seriously, this thing is garbage

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is SE Europe:

    Attachment 9654

    This is Southwest Europe: it includes the southern half of France and Northwest Italy. Basically, I could just add this percentage to my North Italian.

    Attachment 9656

    This is northern Italy. It overlaps with North Central Europe, which is probably what brought those numbers down for me.


    Attachment 9655

    Maybe it is sort of right for me.

    @Sile,
    Thanks.

    It works like any other Admixture program...it finds clusters. Some of the clusters overlap, which is indeed the reality.
    I can't see the Attachments Angela

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    Was 38% Southwestern Europe, Now is 4%, and 34% North Italy.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    If someone who had been adopted ran their data through this calculator, he/she would never figure it out.

    I have said repeatedly that there is more genetic variation north of Rome than there is south of it, and I'm fully aware of the east/west structure in Italy, as well as the north/south one.

    However, these companies are all marketing to the general population: therefore, you shouldn't need to have spent years studying population genetics to figure it out.

    I'm done with this stuff.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdeoF View Post
    I can't see the Attachments Angela
    Try it now, Adeo. Sorry about the difficulty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Dang! North Italy as low as 13 percent!

    If this doesnt get a reaction from Angela..

    seriously, this thing is garbage
    Well, if you know a lot about Population Genetics, and how Admixture works, and take a careful look at their clusters you can figure it out.

    Since SW Europe and NW Italy overlap you can add that, and since North Central Europe overlaps Northern Italy you could add some of that, and since half of Italy is within Eastern Med you could add that. That would be the "Italian" total. Get the idea?

    The point, as I said upthread, is that I only know these things because I've been studying population genetics for eight years. The calculators are being used by people who don't have a clue about any of these things, and all it's going to do is confuse them, as well as bringing population genetics into disrepute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Mine (FTDNA / 23andMe)
    Northern and Central Europe: 44% / 43%
    Eastern Mediterranean: 29% / 33%
    Northern Italy: 23% / 13%
    Southwestern Europe: 4% / 8%
    Ashkenazi Jewish: 0% / 2%
    Central Asia: 0% / 1%
    Father (23andMe)
    Northern Italy: 32%
    Northern and Central Europe: 31%
    Southwestern Europe: 16%
    Eastern Mediterranean: 11%
    Ashkenazi Jewish: 5%
    Northern British Isles: 4%
    Central Asia: 1%
    Mother (23andMe)
    Northern and Central Europe: 33%
    Eastern Mediterranean: 28%
    Northern Italy: 28%
    Southwestern Europe: 11%
    it only looks like 23andme pulls your north italy down to 13% ...ftdna has you higher.

    it also looks like the more west you go from Veneto/friuli/trentino towards turin and Genoa the more higher the North Italian % becomes
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

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  18. #118
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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If someone who had been adopted ran their data through this calculator, he/she would never figure it out.

    I have said repeatedly that there is more genetic variation north of Rome than there is south of it, and I'm fully aware of the east/west structure in Italy, as well as the north/south one.

    However, these companies are all marketing to the general population: therefore, you shouldn't need to have spent years studying population genetics to figure it out.

    I'm done with this stuff.
    Edit: sorry guys, I was wrong, we cool
    Last edited by davef; 17-01-18 at 15:15.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    The east and west doesn't seem all that related, the west has stronger ties to Iberia and the east has stronger ties to Greece/Balkans going by what's in this thread.
    That's a vast over-generalization, and illogical.

    To say that there's some structure east/west doesn't mean they're "not all that related."

    This is almost "Fire-Haired" type reasoning.

    The north was not only subject to some differing migration flows, it was also fragmented politically, with resulting isolation from one another and some drift. The south was, for most of the last 1000 years, ruled as a political entity.

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    Some close similarities between my Ancestry dot com results and this new update from Gencove. Same with my mother.

    Ancestry:
    Europe West 47%
    Iberian Peninsula 25%
    Scandinavia 13%
    Great Britain 6%

    Gencove:
    Northern and Central Europe 46%
    Southwestern Europe 27%
    Scandinavia 12%
    Northern British Isles 6%

    Mom Ancestry:
    Iberian Peninsula: 32%
    Great Britain: 23%
    Scandinavia: 17%

    Mom Gencove:
    Southwestern Europe: 34%
    Northern British Isles: 23%
    Scandinavia: 17%
    Last edited by mwauthy; 17-01-18 at 15:23. Reason: Addition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's a vast over-generalization, and illogical.

    To say that there's some structure east/west doesn't mean they're "not all that related."

    This is almost "Fire-Haired" type reasoning.

    The north was not only subject to some differing migration flows, it was also fragmented politically, with resulting isolation from one another and some drift. The south was, for most of the last 1000 years, ruled as a political entity.
    Ok that's cool, I was just surprised at how different the scores were. Those differences threw me off.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    The east and west doesn't seem all that related, the west has stronger ties to Iberia and the east has stronger ties to Greece/Balkans going by what's in this thread.
    relatedness is not determined by admixture analysis but by IBD analysis (segments), the admixture analysis only determines your broad regional ancestry by the given defined clusters; the more detailed the better the insight yet it only goes so far as the overlap; of course north_italy has a lot of overlap with other clusters hence it was not used in GenePlaza K25/K29 but the cool thing by gencove update is here you can now see where and to what extent the overlap was in the previous version and get some insights from that; the way i see it is that as already suspected a lot was overlapped in south_western and partially (previous)north_central;

    PS: if you still get a lot of south_western despite a north_it cluster now, than you truly do have some either Iberian or Sardinian type ancestry this in turn i reckon can be filtered out via comparison to other calcs with such defined clusters;

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    relatedness is not determined by admixture analysis but by IBD analysis (segments), the admixture analysis only determines your broad regional ancestry by the given defined clusters; the more detailed the better the insight yet it only goes so far as the overlap; of course north_italy has a lot of overlap with other clusters hence it was not used in GenePlaza K25/K29 but the cool thing by gencove update is here you can now see where and to what extent the overlap was in the previous version and get some insights from that; the way i see it is that as already suspected a lot was overlapped in south_western and partially (previous)north_central;

    PS: if you still get a lot of south_western despite a north_it cluster now, than you truly do have some either Iberian or Sardinian ancestry this in turn i reckon can be filtered out via comparison to other calcs with such defined clusters;
    Very true! My dad’s 21-27% northern Italian was included into Europe West on Ancestry and into Southwestern on K25/29 and old Gencove.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^That's another unwarranted conclusion. It seems to be the day for it.

    I still get quite a bit of Southwestern European despite the fact that I get a lot of North Italian. It has nothing to do with any migration from Sardinia or Iberia.

    First of all, there was never, until very recently indeed, any migration from Sardinia to the mainland. It all went the other way.

    There is also no migration from Iberia to Liguria or Emilia.

    In my own particular case, I can trace my ancestry back to the middle of the 1500s, and on some lines back to the 1100s and 1200s, and there is no such gene flow. In my father's case, in particular, all indications are that they were up in the northern Apennines by around 1000 AD.

    Part of it, in the case of Liguria or even nearby areas in Emilia, may be attributable to Gallic migrations of the first millennium BC. There's a reason these people were called Celt-Ligurians. It is clear from Gencove's map that South Western Europe doesn't just include Iberia. It also applies to the southern half of France.

    In addition, I would propose that most of northern Italy was once probably "Ligurian like". One of the differences is differential impact of the Lombard invasions. Yes, every hill in my valley is crowned with a Lombard castle. However, they entered through the northeastern corridor of Italy, and the density of settlement is strongest there. Also, the Lombards seem to have incorporated other men and women as they moved, so they may have been different by the time they incorporated some parts of Northwestern Italy.

    Drift due to long separation would also have added to the structure.

    In this calculator North Italy is centered on Northwestern Italy plus Tuscany.

    As for "relatedness", we all know or should have known that Davef meant genetic similarity.

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    Thanks Angela, that is exactly what I meant by relatedness.

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