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Thread: Oldest R1a M417 yet, guess where it was found.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Fun fact: their societies were completely matrialinic and allowed women to serve in their militaries. The Amazonian tribes as spoken of by the ancient Greeks consisted of 7 ft tall Nordic female Viking warriors.
    Actually that "powerful female Viking warrior-chieftain" was probably a hoax:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLUMINLTNLE#t=3m10s

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The oldest R1a in general, the oldest R1a-M417, and the oldest R1a-Z93:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...=1#post1318959

    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Je9MSxLd1..._The_Beast.png



    I was oblivious that Karelia was usurped as the oldest R1a. Wow.

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    So now let's wait for R1b-L51 from the Steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So now let's wait for R1b-L51 from the Steppe.
    What's the TMRCA? Like 6000 ybp?

    I would expect to find it somewhere in Ukraine. We've tested a bunch of Ukraine samples, but I don't think much from the Yamnaya horizon proper.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    the rather North position of R1b-L11 and maybe later first U106 (noproblem for modern U106) put me to believe L51 was in East-(North-East?) non-russian Europe; P312 took rather the Central Europe road. Someones will say the oldest samples are not in Eastern Europe, OK, but I imagine, with caution, that we have kind of a trail in East-Central Europe for L51 with descendants growing in density towards West. DOn't forget R1b has later been overrun by R1a bearers in Eastern Europe. For what it's worth. To date, without more ancient R1b-L51, we are reduced to do bets, but the brothers Z2103 being in the Steppes, I doubt western L23 made huge leaps directly to SW Europe before giving birth to L51. Wait and see.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    the rather North position of R1b-L11 and maybe later first U106 (noproblem for modern U106) put me to believe L51 was in East-(North-East?) non-russian Europe; P312 took rather the Central Europe road. Someones will say the oldest samples are not in Eastern Europe, OK, but I imagine, with caution, that we have kind of a trail in East-Central Europe for L51 with descendants growing in density towards West. DOn't forget R1b has later been overrun by R1a bearers in Eastern Europe. For what it's worth. To date, without more ancient R1b-L51, we are reduced to do bets, but the brothers Z2103 being in the Steppes, I doubt western L23 made huge leaps directly to SW Europe before giving birth to L51. Wait and see.
    If people aren't dead set on EBA Steppe genome=PIE, then I see nothing wrong with an L51 launch point in NE Europe. But if we need EBA steppe genotype, then our L51 would likely need to have remained in the Pontic region until 4000-4500BCish at the earliest.

    To @Dov's point, L51 launch point to the East of Derievka on the lower Don makes some sense. This is also closer to the presumed source of the CHG that we see increase from the mesolithic to the EBA. The Alexandria sample predates Yamnaya, which is consistent with a more southerly origin of the EBA steppe genotype.



    This will all make sense if we see that Maykop is mostly CHG with a minority of EHG, and that the EBA steppe genotype has a clear origin in the South nearer to Maykop. Then my Balkan theory of farming economy will be supplanted by the quasi-Mesopotamian via The Caucuses which always seemed to make the least sense given the whole body of data.

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    Two Copper Age individuals (I4110 and I6561, Ukraine_Eneolithic) from Dereivka and Alexandria dated to ~ 3600-3400 BCE (and thus preceding the Yamnaya complex) also have mixtures of steppe-and NW Anatolian Neolithic-related ancestry (Figure 1D, Supplementary Data Table 2).
    Mathieson et al. (2017) didn't actually identify Y-DNA or mtDNA haplogroups of these ancient Ukrainian samples but they did PCA analysis on these ancient samples. I cannot find any relevant information on R1a in the main text and the supplementary paper attached to it, in which I6561 is included in the long list.

    Alexandria (1 individual)

    An Eneolithic cemetery of the Sredny Stog II culture was excavated by D. Telegin in 1955-1957 near the village of Alexandria, Kupyansk district, Kharkov region on the left bank of the river Oskol.105 A total of 33 individuals were recovered.106 Based on craniometric analysis (I.Potekhina 1999) it was suggested that the Eneolithic inhabitants of Alexandria were not homogeneous and resulted from admixture of local Neolithic hunter-gatherers and early farmers, possibly Trypillian groups.107 We report genetic data from one individual:

    I6561
    Давайте вместе снова сделаем мир великий!

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    If people aren't dead set on EBA Steppe genome=PIE, then I see nothing wrong with an L51 launch point in NE Europe. But if we need EBA steppe genotype, then our L51 would likely need to have remained in the Pontic region until 4000-4500BCish at the earliest.

    To @Dov's point, L51 launch point to the East of Derievka on the lower Don makes some sense. This is also closer to the presumed source of the CHG that we see increase from the mesolithic to the EBA. The Alexandria sample predates Yamnaya, which is consistent with a more southerly origin of the EBA steppe genotype.



    This will all make sense if we see that Maykop is mostly CHG with a minority of EHG, and that the EBA steppe genotype has a clear origin in the South nearer to Maykop. Then my Balkan theory of farming economy will be supplanted by the quasi-Mesopotamian via The Caucuses which always seemed to make the least sense given the whole body of data.
    Very possible - in my post #55 I put north-east between brackets; I think indeed L51 were in touch with southern pops forming maybe a continuum of R1b clans - L11 is a later stage, but born in close enough areas too - my aim was to show L51 was not a southeastern Europe haplo for the most, even less a southwestern one by origin -
    concerning genesis, I can imagine PIE tribes had inputs of West (CTC) and South (Caucus) with their acquisitions on agricultural ground - for Maykop I'm still between two thoughts: seemingly they physically shew ties with S-East Caspian more than to Caucasus pops and this could be linked to the so criticized 'caucasus'><'gedrosia' opposition in Europe - but this does not exclude a East to West travel South the Caspian across Caucasus mountains. But I stay puzzled with this so peculiar Maykop phenomenon, maybe more a chieftains raiders society than a constructive agricole one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Very possible - in my post #55 I put north-east between brackets; I think indeed L51 were in touch with southern pops forming maybe a continuum of R1b clans - L11 is a later stage, but born in close enough areas too - my aim was to show L51 was not a southeastern Europe haplo for the most, even less a southwestern one by origin -
    concerning genesis, I can imagine PIE tribes had inputs of West (CTC) and South (Caucus) with their acquisitions on agricultural ground - for Maykop I'm still between two thoughts: seemingly they physically shew ties with S-East Caspian more than to Caucasus pops and this could be linked to the so criticized 'caucasus'><'gedrosia' opposition in Europe - but this does not exclude a East to West travel South the Caspian across Caucasus mountains. But I stay puzzled with this so peculiar Maykop phenomenon, maybe more a chieftains raiders society than a constructive agricole one?
    Where is Goga and Alan as we move to the Caucuses? In Spite of all the R1 in Mesolithic->BA Europe this should give Iranians and Kurds hope of the pure Teal R1b-L51.

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    Personally, to date, I don't think these L51 come from Sth-Caucasus, I'm not sure R1b was the principal element among Maykop elites even, but I cannot exclude they already had others R1b subgroups, more eastern (Central Asia). But we can say we know there were since long ago contacts between W-Steppes people and Southern ones North the Caucasus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Very possible - in my post #55 I put north-east between brackets; I think indeed L51 were in touch with southern pops forming maybe a continuum of R1b clans - L11 is a later stage, but born in close enough areas too - my aim was to show L51 was not a southeastern Europe haplo for the most, even less a southwestern one by origin -
    concerning genesis, I can imagine PIE tribes had inputs of West (CTC) and South (Caucus) with their acquisitions on agricultural ground - for Maykop I'm still between two thoughts: seemingly they physically shew ties with S-East Caspian more than to Caucasus pops and this could be linked to the so criticized 'caucasus'><'gedrosia' opposition in Europe - but this does not exclude a East to West travel South the Caspian across Caucasus mountains. But I stay puzzled with this so peculiar Maykop phenomenon, maybe more a chieftains raiders society than a constructive agricole one?
    I've considered East/circum-Caspian CHG origin before based on the fact that obvious Caucasus admixture seems to pre-cludes Caucasus material culture.

    The thing is Mesopotamian power, influence, and genes seem to be exploding in all directions at this time and these Caucasian cultures would serve as a fitting intermediate.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    holderlin
    Why are you trying to exclude Trypolye? In any case, they were the main agro consultants for PIE. The movement from the lower Don does not exclude Tripolye and the farmers, it simply gives more opportunities for contact with the Caucasus. But we do not really know what was there, at that time much autosomal DNA from CW and BB from the Tripolye, as well as the probable borrowing of the agro vocabulary from them. In the late Dereivka ceramics were found traces of grain, barley, millet and peas. They already had hoe farming along with cattle breeding near the Trypillians.

    But for example, in Rakushechniyar culture (which was on the lower Don, among others), no clear traces of farming have been found. Only cerealers mill, horny hoes and stone knives, which were most likely used for gathering. But at the same time found many animal bones: sheep, pigs, cows and horses. That is, before contact with the Tripolye, they probably did not have any farming. They engaged exclusively in cattle breeding, as well as hunting and gathering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I've considered East/circum-Caspian CHG origin before based on the fact that obvious Caucasus admixture seems to pre-cludes Caucasus material culture.

    The thing is Mesopotamian power, influence, and genes seem to be exploding in all directions at this time and these Caucasian cultures would serve as a fitting intermediate.
    I think we are giving too much credit to Mesopatamian culture and even more to Mesopotamian demic unput. Their cultuiral influence, maybe not native but already the result of diverse inputs, can have influenced later cultures of South Caucasus and South Caspian, without strong demic input. Always this credit to (too) well known cultures at the depends of others (let's keep in mind all the credit China had before new discoveries...). I think teh southern input in Steppes is a late enough one, alreadu a mix of several influences and new sunthesis. Always bets, it's true before confirmations or discredit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    holderlin
    Why are you trying to exclude Trypolye? In any case, they were the main agro consultants for PIE. The movement from the lower Don does not exclude Tripolye and the farmers, it simply gives more opportunities for contact with the Caucasus. But we do not really know what was there, at that time much autosomal DNA from CW and BB from the Tripolye, as well as the probable borrowing of the agro vocabulary from them. In the late Dereivka ceramics were found traces of grain, barley, millet and peas. They already had hoe farming along with cattle breeding near the Trypillians.

    But for example, in Rakushechniyar culture (which was on the lower Don, among others), no clear traces of farming have been found. Only cerealers mill, horny hoes and stone knives, which were most likely used for gathering. But at the same time found many animal bones: sheep, pigs, cows and horses. That is, before contact with the Tripolye, they probably did not have any farming. They engaged exclusively in cattle breeding, as well as hunting and gathering.
    I was only considering the possibility in relation to the influx of Caucasian admixture in a scenario where it's coming from the South. By the time of Yamnaya, influence from the Caucasus is obvious in the material culture as is the admixture. Just musing.


    I do think PIE emerges with contact between steppe and Balkans.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Humble contribution from a non-specialist :
    In "Des Steppes aux Oceans", a book on PIE written in 1986 for a profane public, scholar Andre Martinet noted that PIE words for the numbers 1 to 100 were distinctly of non-PIE origin. He concluded they had to have been borrowed from some neighboring culure.
    What he observed was as follows :
    - Aspirates (bh- , dh-, etc) are as frequent in PIE words as voiceless plosive consonants.
    - Aspirates are far more frequent than voiced consonants.
    - PIE numbers have voiceless and voiced consonants, but NO aspirates of any kind, which is a statistical anomaly.
    This doesn't tell us were the number words came from. It just goes to show that borrowings occurred at some (maybe multiple) stages.

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    We can suppose it was surely a well evolved and mighty culture (at least for trade) to be able to pass its numbers to an other culture, but I don't know which one it was. Here we have to distinguish between numbers vocal names and numbers written signs.

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    In the development of culture may be divided into two major periods: the early, so — called donorboy, and late — corded or derevsky , now allocated in a separate culture with a largely different roots. Samples of r1a was obnarujeny in the late period - that is, a cord.

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    Hi. What is the most common R1a sub type on the Balkans, what subtype and where from are the oldest R1a samples on the Balkans/ Greece? So much info, impossible to read everything to find out this. Hope someone of you who knows already can share the info. Links would be helpful. Many thanks.

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    Hi. I wrote to a profile of yours on facebook but unsure you check messages there often, there were not any recent posts... So I am trying here, too. What is the most common R1a sub type on the Balkans, what subtype and where from are the oldest R1a samples on the Balkans/ Greece? So much info, impossible to read everything to find out this. Hope someone of you who knows already can share the info. Links would be helpful. Many thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    .
    Hi. I wrote to a profile of yours on facebook but unsure you check messages there often, there were not any recent posts... So I am trying here, too. What is the most common R1a sub type on the Balkans, what subtype and where from are the oldest R1a samples on the Balkans/ Greece? So much info, impossible to read everything to find out this. Hope someone of you who knows already can share the info. Links would be helpful. Many thanks.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    There is no R1a in Kura-Araxes the PIE culture so people should start considering the language family they really spoke. Sredny Stog and R1a-M417 are strongly related to one group of people and it's not Indo-Europeans:

    "The Sredny Stog culture carried a number of traits exclusive for the later Turkic peoples.

    As far as the kurgans are concerned, only the Turkic peoples had retained a name for a man-made grave marker hill, and they bestowed that name "kurgan" on all surrounding IE and non-IE peoples, precisely because those people did not have a term for a foreign object belonging to a foreign religion from a contrasting culture.

    The presumptuous militantly patriarchal nature of the Eneolithic burials is nearly identical to that of the Turkic kurgans in the historical times, which are known as being dual endogamic societies with no exaggerated sexual dominance, just to name the Dulo/Ukil ruling clans of the Hunno-Bulgars, or Ashina/Ashtak ruling clans of the Turks.

    Animal bones are an intriguing accompaniment to many burials and the principal species represented were ovicaprids, cattle, horse, dog and some wild animals. These remains may often be interpreted simply as joints of meat presented as food offerings; however, other rituals were also at play. Frequently the skull and forelegs of a sheep, or much more rarely of a horse, are encountered in a grave and indicate the presence of a 'head and hooves' cult. In some cases the forepart of the animal might have been erected directly over the burial.

    This prominent, radically distinctive, and without equal trait seems being directly taken directly from the textbook on Turkic burial traditions. Like the kurgan burials themselves, this religious rite survived and is well documented until the Middle Ages, and like the kurgan burials themselves, this religious rite was never as a traditional custom among Indo-European or Finno-Ugrian peoples."




    Sort populations from central and north Asian by R1a and it's all Turkic groups at the top, from all over Eurasia. R1a is by far the most important Turkic Y-DNA.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...and_North_Asia

    (Sort them by J and literally all IE groups go to the top.)


    This guy here did a great work listing hundreds of placenames of Turkic origin in Corded Ware territory:
    https://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Bulgar.html



    There is a lot of literature in Polish about the strong connection of Slavic and Altaic languages in case anyone is interested:

    Theory of Asiatic origin of Slavs that was based among other things on many Altaic words in Slavic languages. Here is a short description of this theory (in Polish):
    https://i.postimg.cc/tTTrjnp3/screenshot-447.png
    The strong link Slavic languages have with Altaic languages was described by Kazimierz Moszyński in his book “Pierwotny zasięg języka prasłowiańskiego”:
    http://www.worldcat.org/title/pierwo...oclc/836127907

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    Carlos, is that you? What's with the Italian flag? Using the methodology you use to assign R1a to Turks, we should call R1b Basque because they have the highest amounts of that. Turkic languages were unknown west of the Volga until well into the classical period. And the areas that are now Turkic were once Iranic; you can change your language but not your y-dna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    There is no R1a in Kura-Araxes the PIE culture so people should start considering the language family they really spoke. Sredny Stog and R1a-M417 are strongly related to one group of people and it's not Indo-Europeans:

    "The Sredny Stog culture carried a number of traits exclusive for the later Turkic peoples.

    As far as the kurgans are concerned, only the Turkic peoples had retained a name for a man-made grave marker hill, and they bestowed that name "kurgan" on all surrounding IE and non-IE peoples, precisely because those people did not have a term for a foreign object belonging to a foreign religion from a contrasting culture.

    The presumptuous militantly patriarchal nature of the Eneolithic burials is nearly identical to that of the Turkic kurgans in the historical times, which are known as being dual endogamic societies with no exaggerated sexual dominance, just to name the Dulo/Ukil ruling clans of the Hunno-Bulgars, or Ashina/Ashtak ruling clans of the Turks.

    Animal bones are an intriguing accompaniment to many burials and the principal species represented were ovicaprids, cattle, horse, dog and some wild animals. These remains may often be interpreted simply as joints of meat presented as food offerings; however, other rituals were also at play. Frequently the skull and forelegs of a sheep, or much more rarely of a horse, are encountered in a grave and indicate the presence of a 'head and hooves' cult. In some cases the forepart of the animal might have been erected directly over the burial.

    This prominent, radically distinctive, and without equal trait seems being directly taken directly from the textbook on Turkic burial traditions. Like the kurgan burials themselves, this religious rite survived and is well documented until the Middle Ages, and like the kurgan burials themselves, this religious rite was never as a traditional custom among Indo-European or Finno-Ugrian peoples."




    Sort populations from central and north Asian by R1a and it's all Turkic groups at the top, from all over Eurasia. R1a is by far the most important Turkic Y-DNA.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...and_North_Asia

    (Sort them by J and literally all IE groups go to the top.)


    This guy here did a great work listing hundreds of placenames of Turkic origin in Corded Ware territory:
    https://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Bulgar.html



    There is a lot of literature in Polish about the strong connection of Slavic and Altaic languages in case anyone is interested:

    Theory of Asiatic origin of Slavs that was based among other things on many Altaic words in Slavic languages. Here is a short description of this theory (in Polish):
    https://i.postimg.cc/tTTrjnp3/screenshot-447.png
    The strong link Slavic languages have with Altaic languages was described by Kazimierz Moszyński in his book “Pierwotny zasięg języka prasłowiańskiego”:
    http://www.worldcat.org/title/pierwo...oclc/836127907
    The R1b in KA is also very far from L23 though.

    Are we sure about the rumors regarding Kura-Araxes as the PIE homeland?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    The areas that are now Turkic were once Iranic; you can change your language but not your y-dna.


    There is still plenty of Iranic Y-DNA in that region, Kura-Araxes didn't have only R1b.


    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The R1b in KA is also very far from L23 though

    The Ararat Valley has the highest variance of L23 in the world by a good margin so they should also find the right R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post

    There is still plenty of Iranic Y-DNA in that region, Kura-Araxes didn't have only R1b.

    The Ararat Valley has the highest variance of L23 in the world by a good margin so they should also find the right R1b.
    ... And isn't it from Erzurum, 300km away, the only L23 man found with any known subclade?

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