Oldest R1a M417 yet, guess where it was found.

Very possible - in my post #55 I put north-east between brackets; I think indeed L51 were in touch with southern pops forming maybe a continuum of R1b clans - L11 is a later stage, but born in close enough areas too - my aim was to show L51 was not a southeastern Europe haplo for the most, even less a southwestern one by origin -
concerning genesis, I can imagine PIE tribes had inputs of West (CTC) and South (Caucus) with their acquisitions on agricultural ground - for Maykop I'm still between two thoughts: seemingly they physically shew ties with S-East Caspian more than to Caucasus pops and this could be linked to the so criticized 'caucasus'><'gedrosia' opposition in Europe - but this does not exclude a East to West travel South the Caspian across Caucasus mountains. But I stay puzzled with this so peculiar Maykop phenomenon, maybe more a chieftains raiders society than a constructive agricole one?

I've considered East/circum-Caspian CHG origin before based on the fact that obvious Caucasus admixture seems to pre-cludes Caucasus material culture.

The thing is Mesopotamian power, influence, and genes seem to be exploding in all directions at this time and these Caucasian cultures would serve as a fitting intermediate.
 
holderlin
Why are you trying to exclude Trypolye? In any case, they were the main agro consultants for PIE. The movement from the lower Don does not exclude Tripolye and the farmers, it simply gives more opportunities for contact with the Caucasus. But we do not really know what was there, at that time much autosomal DNA from CW and BB from the Tripolye, as well as the probable borrowing of the agro vocabulary from them. In the late Dereivka ceramics were found traces of grain, barley, millet and peas. They already had hoe farming along with cattle breeding near the Trypillians.

But for example, in Rakushechniyar culture (which was on the lower Don, among others), no clear traces of farming have been found. Only cerealers mill, horny hoes and stone knives, which were most likely used for gathering. But at the same time found many animal bones: sheep, pigs, cows and horses. That is, before contact with the Tripolye, they probably did not have any farming. They engaged exclusively in cattle breeding, as well as hunting and gathering.
 
I've considered East/circum-Caspian CHG origin before based on the fact that obvious Caucasus admixture seems to pre-cludes Caucasus material culture.

The thing is Mesopotamian power, influence, and genes seem to be exploding in all directions at this time and these Caucasian cultures would serve as a fitting intermediate.

I think we are giving too much credit to Mesopatamian culture and even more to Mesopotamian demic unput. Their cultuiral influence, maybe not native but already the result of diverse inputs, can have influenced later cultures of South Caucasus and South Caspian, without strong demic input. Always this credit to (too) well known cultures at the depends of others (let's keep in mind all the credit China had before new discoveries...). I think teh southern input in Steppes is a late enough one, alreadu a mix of several influences and new sunthesis. Always bets, it's true before confirmations or discredit.
 
holderlin
Why are you trying to exclude Trypolye? In any case, they were the main agro consultants for PIE. The movement from the lower Don does not exclude Tripolye and the farmers, it simply gives more opportunities for contact with the Caucasus. But we do not really know what was there, at that time much autosomal DNA from CW and BB from the Tripolye, as well as the probable borrowing of the agro vocabulary from them. In the late Dereivka ceramics were found traces of grain, barley, millet and peas. They already had hoe farming along with cattle breeding near the Trypillians.

But for example, in Rakushechniyar culture (which was on the lower Don, among others), no clear traces of farming have been found. Only cerealers mill, horny hoes and stone knives, which were most likely used for gathering. But at the same time found many animal bones: sheep, pigs, cows and horses. That is, before contact with the Tripolye, they probably did not have any farming. They engaged exclusively in cattle breeding, as well as hunting and gathering.

I was only considering the possibility in relation to the influx of Caucasian admixture in a scenario where it's coming from the South. By the time of Yamnaya, influence from the Caucasus is obvious in the material culture as is the admixture. Just musing.


I do think PIE emerges with contact between steppe and Balkans.
 
Humble contribution from a non-specialist :
In "Des Steppes aux Oceans", a book on PIE written in 1986 for a profane public, scholar Andre Martinet noted that PIE words for the numbers 1 to 100 were distinctly of non-PIE origin. He concluded they had to have been borrowed from some neighboring culure.
What he observed was as follows :
- Aspirates (bh- , dh-, etc) are as frequent in PIE words as voiceless plosive consonants.
- Aspirates are far more frequent than voiced consonants.
- PIE numbers have voiceless and voiced consonants, but NO aspirates of any kind, which is a statistical anomaly.
This doesn't tell us were the number words came from. It just goes to show that borrowings occurred at some (maybe multiple) stages.
 
We can suppose it was surely a well evolved and mighty culture (at least for trade) to be able to pass its numbers to an other culture, but I don't know which one it was. Here we have to distinguish between numbers vocal names and numbers written signs.
 
In the development of culture may be divided into two major periods: the early, so — called donorboy, and late — corded or derevsky , now allocated in a separate culture with a largely different roots. Samples of r1a was obnarujeny in the late period - that is, a cord.
 
Hi. What is the most common R1a sub type on the Balkans, what subtype and where from are the oldest R1a samples on the Balkans/ Greece? So much info, impossible to read everything to find out this. Hope someone of you who knows already can share the info. Links would be helpful. Many thanks.
 
Hi. I wrote to a profile of yours on facebook but unsure you check messages there often, there were not any recent posts... So I am trying here, too. What is the most common R1a sub type on the Balkans, what subtype and where from are the oldest R1a samples on the Balkans/ Greece? So much info, impossible to read everything to find out this. Hope someone of you who knows already can share the info. Links would be helpful. Many thanks.
 
Hi. I wrote to a profile of yours on facebook but unsure you check messages there often, there were not any recent posts... So I am trying here, too. What is the most common R1a sub type on the Balkans, what subtype and where from are the oldest R1a samples on the Balkans/ Greece? So much info, impossible to read everything to find out this. Hope someone of you who knows already can share the info. Links would be helpful. Many thanks.
 
There is no R1a in Kura-Araxes the PIE culture so people should start considering the language family they really spoke. Sredny Stog and R1a-M417 are strongly related to one group of people and it's not Indo-Europeans:

"The Sredny Stog culture carried a number of traits exclusive for the later Turkic peoples.

As far as the kurgans are concerned, only the Turkic peoples had retained a name for a man-made grave marker hill, and they bestowed that name "kurgan" on all surrounding IE and non-IE peoples, precisely because those people did not have a term for a foreign object belonging to a foreign religion from a contrasting culture.

The presumptuous militantly patriarchal nature of the Eneolithic burials is nearly identical to that of the Turkic kurgans in the historical times, which are known as being dual endogamic societies with no exaggerated sexual dominance, just to name the Dulo/Ukil ruling clans of the Hunno-Bulgars, or Ashina/Ashtak ruling clans of the Turks.

Animal bones are an intriguing accompaniment to many burials and the principal species represented were ovicaprids, cattle, horse, dog and some wild animals. These remains may often be interpreted simply as joints of meat presented as food offerings; however, other rituals were also at play. Frequently the skull and forelegs of a sheep, or much more rarely of a horse, are encountered in a grave and indicate the presence of a 'head and hooves' cult. In some cases the forepart of the animal might have been erected directly over the burial.

This prominent, radically distinctive, and without equal trait seems being directly taken directly from the textbook on Turkic burial traditions. Like the kurgan burials themselves, this religious rite survived and is well documented until the Middle Ages, and like the kurgan burials themselves, this religious rite was never as a traditional custom among Indo-European or Finno-Ugrian peoples."

MczjpKK.jpg



Sort populations from central and north Asian by R1a and it's all Turkic groups at the top, from all over Eurasia. R1a is by far the most important Turkic Y-DNA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Central_and_North_Asia
GstrB3X.jpg

(Sort them by J and literally all IE groups go to the top.)


This guy here did a great work listing hundreds of placenames of Turkic origin in Corded Ware territory:
https://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Bulgar.html
qnCgZEL.jpg



There is a lot of literature in Polish about the strong connection of Slavic and Altaic languages in case anyone is interested:

Theory of Asiatic origin of Slavs that was based among other things on many Altaic words in Slavic languages. Here is a short description of this theory (in Polish):
https://i.postimg.cc/tTTrjnp3/screenshot-447.png
The strong link Slavic languages have with Altaic languages was described by Kazimierz Moszyński in his book “Pierwotny zasięg języka prasłowiańskiego”:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/pierwotny-zasiag-jezyka-prasowianskiego/oclc/836127907
 
Carlos, is that you? What's with the Italian flag? Using the methodology you use to assign R1a to Turks, we should call R1b Basque because they have the highest amounts of that. Turkic languages were unknown west of the Volga until well into the classical period. And the areas that are now Turkic were once Iranic; you can change your language but not your y-dna.
 
There is no R1a in Kura-Araxes the PIE culture so people should start considering the language family they really spoke. Sredny Stog and R1a-M417 are strongly related to one group of people and it's not Indo-Europeans:

"The Sredny Stog culture carried a number of traits exclusive for the later Turkic peoples.

As far as the kurgans are concerned, only the Turkic peoples had retained a name for a man-made grave marker hill, and they bestowed that name "kurgan" on all surrounding IE and non-IE peoples, precisely because those people did not have a term for a foreign object belonging to a foreign religion from a contrasting culture.

The presumptuous militantly patriarchal nature of the Eneolithic burials is nearly identical to that of the Turkic kurgans in the historical times, which are known as being dual endogamic societies with no exaggerated sexual dominance, just to name the Dulo/Ukil ruling clans of the Hunno-Bulgars, or Ashina/Ashtak ruling clans of the Turks.

Animal bones are an intriguing accompaniment to many burials and the principal species represented were ovicaprids, cattle, horse, dog and some wild animals. These remains may often be interpreted simply as joints of meat presented as food offerings; however, other rituals were also at play. Frequently the skull and forelegs of a sheep, or much more rarely of a horse, are encountered in a grave and indicate the presence of a 'head and hooves' cult. In some cases the forepart of the animal might have been erected directly over the burial.

This prominent, radically distinctive, and without equal trait seems being directly taken directly from the textbook on Turkic burial traditions. Like the kurgan burials themselves, this religious rite survived and is well documented until the Middle Ages, and like the kurgan burials themselves, this religious rite was never as a traditional custom among Indo-European or Finno-Ugrian peoples."

MczjpKK.jpg



Sort populations from central and north Asian by R1a and it's all Turkic groups at the top, from all over Eurasia. R1a is by far the most important Turkic Y-DNA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Central_and_North_Asia
GstrB3X.jpg

(Sort them by J and literally all IE groups go to the top.)


This guy here did a great work listing hundreds of placenames of Turkic origin in Corded Ware territory:
https://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Bulgar.html
qnCgZEL.jpg



There is a lot of literature in Polish about the strong connection of Slavic and Altaic languages in case anyone is interested:

Theory of Asiatic origin of Slavs that was based among other things on many Altaic words in Slavic languages. Here is a short description of this theory (in Polish):
https://i.postimg.cc/tTTrjnp3/screenshot-447.png
The strong link Slavic languages have with Altaic languages was described by Kazimierz Moszyński in his book “Pierwotny zasięg języka prasłowiańskiego”:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/pierwotny-zasiag-jezyka-prasowianskiego/oclc/836127907

The R1b in KA is also very far from L23 though.

Are we sure about the rumors regarding Kura-Araxes as the PIE homeland?
 
The areas that are now Turkic were once Iranic; you can change your language but not your y-dna.

ylijAP8.jpg


There is still plenty of Iranic Y-DNA in that region, Kura-Araxes didn't have only R1b.


The R1b in KA is also very far from L23 though


The Ararat Valley has the highest variance of L23 in the world by a good margin so they should also find the right R1b.
 
There is still plenty of Iranic Y-DNA in that region, Kura-Araxes didn't have only R1b.

The Ararat Valley has the highest variance of L23 in the world by a good margin so they should also find the right R1b.

... And isn't it from Erzurum, 300km away, the only L23 man found with any known subclade?
 
There is still plenty of Iranic Y-DNA in that region, Kura-Araxes didn't have only R1b.


The Ararat Valley has the highest variance of L23 in the world by a good margin so they should also find the right R1b.


Yeah, but I'm not sure how reliable modern distributions are, really.

By the way, don't E-V13 & J1 have similar distributions in Europe? I've always thought their spread was consistent with a Middle Bronze Age invasion of Europe from the South-East (Carpathians, Dinaric range).

I would really like to see ancient DNA from Italy where these Bronze Age haplogroups seem to be most concentrated nowadays. Looks like Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic expansions wiped a good chunk of them out in South-Eastern Europe.
 
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Yeah, but I'm not sure how reliable modern distributions are, really.

By the way, don't E-V13 & J1 have similar distributions in Europe? I've always thought their spread was consistent with a Middle Bronze Age invasion of Europe from the South-East (Carpathians, Dinaric range).

I would really like to see ancient DNA from Italy where these Bronze Age haplogroups seem to be most concentrated nowadays. Looks like Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic expansions wiped a good chunk of them out in South-Eastern Europe.

I don't see any wipe out of E-V13 in the Balkans, although I take your point about the Slavic expansions changing the yDna mix. E-V13 remains much more prevalent there than in Italy.

ev13.gif


I think we also need more studies of the specific clades of J1 in the places in Europe where it exists.
 
I don't see any wipe out of E-V13 in the Balkans, although I take your point about the Slavic expansions changing the yDna mix. E-V13 remains much more prevalent there than in Italy.

ev13.gif


I think we also need more studies of the specific clades of J1 in the places in Europe where it exists.

I didn't express myself well, sorry. E-V13 definitely peaks in frequency in the Balkans because of a late founder effect, but the sum of J2b/J2a, E-V13, J1 - i. e. those weird haplogroups that probably expanded in Bronze Age but don't show up much in the samples we have thus far - are pretty concentrated in Italy. I think that's a point Saetrus made in his earlier posts.

The Central & Southern Italian y-DNA profile reminds me a bit of Cyprus without the Near Eastern haplogroups but with more R1b.
 
I didn't express myself well, sorry. E-V13 definitely peaks in frequency in the Balkans because of a late founder effect, but the sum of J2b/J2a, E-V13, J1 - i. e. those weird haplogroups that probably expanded in Bronze Age but don't show up much in the samples we have thus far - are pretty concentrated in Italy. I think that's a point Saetrus made in his earlier posts.

The Central & Southern Italian y-DNA profile reminds me a bit of Cyprus without the Near Eastern haplogroups but with more R1b.

It depends, I think, what you mean by the Balkans, or what country we're discussing in terms of which haplogroup. Certainly, the total of J2 in Greece and Albania is as high or higher than in Italy, and that includes mainland Greece, not just the islands like Crete. Of course, the mix is different in terms of J2a and J2b in Greece and the Balkans than in Italy. I've always thought, however, that the J2 on the eastern coast of Italy was probably heavily derived from the Balkans. Calabria and Sicily may be somewhat different, but those areas were heavily settled from the Peloponnese, so that is something to consider.
Haplogroup-J2.jpg


As for J1 it's a similar story, although the pattern is different. At any rate, the percentages are low.

qAfhGbr.png


The latter two maps are from Wiki:
1200px-J2%28Y-DNA%29.png


HG_J1_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG




Had there not been a Slavic invasion the numbers for these haplogroups would have made the Italian numbers pale in comparison.

In terms of E-V13, I'm not aware of any studies showing whether the E-V13 is different from, or a sub-type of the prevalent clade in Greece and Albania. I think the likelihood is that it spread from the Balkans to Italy, but we shall see.

Ultimately, I think we're going to have to wait for ancient dna from Italy to sort this out. I just wish that it were the Reich group doing it and not that Spanish group.
 
the sum of J2b/J2a, E-V13, J1 - i. e. those haplogroups that probably expanded in Bronze Age but don't show up much in the samples we have thus far

Except for the Indo-European samples we have so far, right? Anatolian Indo-Europeans were J2, G, J1, Mycenaean Greeks were J2, Thracians were J2, E1b-V13 with the J2 one being an elite aristocratic sample, and Bactrians were J2, G, J1, L, R1b, E1b, T.


are pretty concentrated in Italy. I think that's a point Saetrus made
No, my point is all those haplogroups are associated with the Caucasian autosomal component and if you look at the Iron Age the Indo-European groups associated with it are much more varied and much more ancient than the IE group with the L51 founder effect.
Lz2VeBr.jpg
 

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