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Thread: Oldest R1a M417 yet, guess where it was found.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post

    There is still plenty of Iranic Y-DNA in that region, Kura-Araxes didn't have only R1b.


    The Ararat Valley has the highest variance of L23 in the world by a good margin so they should also find the right R1b.

    Yeah, but I'm not sure how reliable modern distributions are, really.

    By the way, don't E-V13 & J1 have similar distributions in Europe? I've always thought their spread was consistent with a Middle Bronze Age invasion of Europe from the South-East (Carpathians, Dinaric range).

    I would really like to see ancient DNA from Italy where these Bronze Age haplogroups seem to be most concentrated nowadays. Looks like Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic expansions wiped a good chunk of them out in South-Eastern Europe.
    Last edited by markod; 27-11-18 at 09:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Yeah, but I'm not sure how reliable modern distributions are, really.

    By the way, don't E-V13 & J1 have similar distributions in Europe? I've always thought their spread was consistent with a Middle Bronze Age invasion of Europe from the South-East (Carpathians, Dinaric range).

    I would really like to see ancient DNA from Italy where these Bronze Age haplogroups seem to be most concentrated nowadays. Looks like Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic expansions wiped a good chunk of them out in South-Eastern Europe.
    I don't see any wipe out of E-V13 in the Balkans, although I take your point about the Slavic expansions changing the yDna mix. E-V13 remains much more prevalent there than in Italy.



    I think we also need more studies of the specific clades of J1 in the places in Europe where it exists.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't see any wipe out of E-V13 in the Balkans, although I take your point about the Slavic expansions changing the yDna mix. E-V13 remains much more prevalent there than in Italy.



    I think we also need more studies of the specific clades of J1 in the places in Europe where it exists.
    I didn't express myself well, sorry. E-V13 definitely peaks in frequency in the Balkans because of a late founder effect, but the sum of J2b/J2a, E-V13, J1 - i. e. those weird haplogroups that probably expanded in Bronze Age but don't show up much in the samples we have thus far - are pretty concentrated in Italy. I think that's a point Saetrus made in his earlier posts.

    The Central & Southern Italian y-DNA profile reminds me a bit of Cyprus without the Near Eastern haplogroups but with more R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I didn't express myself well, sorry. E-V13 definitely peaks in frequency in the Balkans because of a late founder effect, but the sum of J2b/J2a, E-V13, J1 - i. e. those weird haplogroups that probably expanded in Bronze Age but don't show up much in the samples we have thus far - are pretty concentrated in Italy. I think that's a point Saetrus made in his earlier posts.

    The Central & Southern Italian y-DNA profile reminds me a bit of Cyprus without the Near Eastern haplogroups but with more R1b.
    It depends, I think, what you mean by the Balkans, or what country we're discussing in terms of which haplogroup. Certainly, the total of J2 in Greece and Albania is as high or higher than in Italy, and that includes mainland Greece, not just the islands like Crete. Of course, the mix is different in terms of J2a and J2b in Greece and the Balkans than in Italy. I've always thought, however, that the J2 on the eastern coast of Italy was probably heavily derived from the Balkans. Calabria and Sicily may be somewhat different, but those areas were heavily settled from the Peloponnese, so that is something to consider.


    As for J1 it's a similar story, although the pattern is different. At any rate, the percentages are low.



    The latter two maps are from Wiki:






    Had there not been a Slavic invasion the numbers for these haplogroups would have made the Italian numbers pale in comparison.

    In terms of E-V13, I'm not aware of any studies showing whether the E-V13 is different from, or a sub-type of the prevalent clade in Greece and Albania. I think the likelihood is that it spread from the Balkans to Italy, but we shall see.

    Ultimately, I think we're going to have to wait for ancient dna from Italy to sort this out. I just wish that it were the Reich group doing it and not that Spanish group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    the sum of J2b/J2a, E-V13, J1 - i. e. those haplogroups that probably expanded in Bronze Age but don't show up much in the samples we have thus far
    Except for the Indo-European samples we have so far, right? Anatolian Indo-Europeans were J2, G, J1, Mycenaean Greeks were J2, Thracians were J2, E1b-V13 with the J2 one being an elite aristocratic sample, and Bactrians were J2, G, J1, L, R1b, E1b, T.


    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    are pretty concentrated in Italy. I think that's a point Saetrus made
    No, my point is all those haplogroups are associated with the Caucasian autosomal component and if you look at the Iron Age the Indo-European groups associated with it are much more varied and much more ancient than the IE group with the L51 founder effect.

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