Oldest R1a M417 yet, guess where it was found.

I understand the archaeology doesn't allow a high resolution picture, but there are some things that you can't dismiss. Things like copper coming from the Balkans, and contemporaneous Dnieper-Donets and Samara layers possessing very similar material culture.

I don't disagree necessarily with a pre-farming-PIE in Samara, but it has no real linguistic definition. Also, Yamnaya has no Anatolian farmer, and yet you require the farming lexicon to come from mixing with the Balkans. It also sounds like you would need to see this in the genetics. This is problematic.

And I don't think we can say the the "main lexicon" is pastoral.

Many of their agricultural terms are borrowed from the Middle East languages. These words like the type of activity were alien to them and obviously borrowed from outside.

L. Zaliznyak: (although there are some controversial terms, such as borrowing a horse, as for me)
The well-known linguist V. Illich-Svitych (1964) noted that a certain part of the agrarian and cattle-breeding vocabulary was borrowed from the prasemites and Sumerians. As an example of prasemitic borrowings, the researcher named the words: tauro - bull, gait - goat, agno - lamb, bar - grain, cereals, dehno - bread, grain, kern - millstone, medu - honey, sweet, sekur - ax, nahu - vessel , ship, haster - star, septm - seven, klau - key, etc. According to V. Illich-Svitych, from the language of Sumerians, u borrowed the words: kou - cow, reud - ore, auesk - gold, akro - field, duer - doors, hkor - mountains, etc. (Gamkrelidze, Ivanov, 1984, pp. 272-276).

However, especially a lot of agricultural and livestock terminology, names of food products, household items and-e borrowed from the Prahattans and the Prakhurites, whose ancestral home is localized in Anatolia and in the upper reaches of the Tigris and the Euphrates. SA Starostin (1988, pp. 112-163) believes that the roots of klau, medu, akgho, bar and some others are not Primamitic or Sumerian, but Hatto-Khuritic ones, cited by V. Illich-Svitych. In addition, he suggests numerous examples of Hutto-Khuritic vocabulary in i-e languages. Here are just some of them: ekuo - horse, kago - goat, porko - pig, hvelena - wave, ouig - oats, hag - berry, rughio - rye, lino - lion, kulo - count, list, gueran - millstone, sel - village, dholo - valley, arho - open space, area, tuer - cottage cheese, sur - cheese, bhar - barley, penkue - five and many others. An analysis of these linguistic borrowings shows that they occurred in the process of direct contacts of the Pra-Indo-Europeans with the more developed Prahutto-Khurites not later than the V millennium BC. (Starostin, 1988, pp. 112-113, 152-154).

By the time this coincides with the contacts Eneolithic Dereivka culture with Tripolye.
And this why agrarian cultures, including Anatolia, hardly can be considered as IE. Because many agricultural terms for In PIE have non Indo-European roots.

A main lexicon IE can be even north-Mesolithic. All this flora and fauna (elks and birches), as well as the names of different tools.

And Samara and Dnepro-Donets are similar, why not. All these cultures have common Mesolithic roots.
 
@Holderlin+@Dov
Very interesting posts, trying to put some light into this intricated successions of cultures.
Languages comparisons could put languages close or far according to lexicon as opposed to grammar, both as as opposed to phonetic trends.
I lack knowledge about the ties between agricultural and pastoral vocabularies of diverse linguistic groups; a deep study about this could help here, I think. A possibility could be that a language spoken in Steppes gained strength about the 5000/4000 BC and borrowed agricultural lexicon from Tripolye influenced cultures of West Steppes; what would not exclude some other loans from other cultures (South Caucasus? or else?);
A good "fusion" in Steppes could have produced a partly new language rather homogenous NOW (after loans) before radiation/diffusion under the form of an homogenous enough "PIE", creating the impression of a cool history without any tribulation in the language? At those times these loanwords borrowed through the same filter on a short enough period would show provisory homogeneity and after that would undergo the same phonetic evolutionS than "genuine" PIE words among the "daughters" languages.
Maybe sometime archeology and genetics will find an agreement? Without more data I guess that a lot of the agricultural vocabulary came from Tripolye culture; Catacombs seemed more agricultural than Yamnaya and physically more akin to East-Central Europe, at least the western Catacombs. But where came Catacombs from? Maybe a melting pot? In fact its physical heterogeneity between subgroups (same for mt DNA between West and East?) and the case of western types and DNA in later eastern Steppes cultures point towards a brewing West/East-East/West spanning a long enough time, I think. But if what I say is sensible (loanwords in a short enough time) we can consider that the agricultural package was obtained from West for the most, soon enough, and transmitted only after to East, where by the way, stoke breeding seemed stronger than plants culture. The 'satem' trend, as said by forumers here and there, could have been born early enough, perhaps as soon as CWC, during some language transmission to unkown groups of North-East or East.
&:I was said that the PIE agricultural lexicon was not so developped as believed at first. In accord with what Dov wrote.
&&: this doesn't say us too precisely from where came the pre-agricultural PIE.

Thanks for the interesting comment.

I'll try to describe my vision.
- Pastoralists, with a domesticated horse from the Don region, with a basic shepherd's vocabulary, could theoretically contact the Caucasian languages in those places.
- Further, they moved to the west, to the area of modern Derevika. With a corded ornamentation and horse breeding.
- In those places they began to borrow Middle Eastern agricultural vocabulary from the Trypillians, and at the same time linguistically contact with the Pit-Comb Ware culture (Uralics) in the north.

At the expense of Satem is still incomprehensible. Maybe it was just a territorial feature of CW, maybe because of contacts with someone (Pit-Comb Ware?) I have never seen any specifics on this issue. All this is very vague and not definite.
 
Dov, I don't disagree as a whole (ATW I only do hypothesis of amateur)
I guess CWC had an early IE on way to satemization they imported to Scandinavia before other IE tribes input. for the most palatalization is a phonetic palatalizing process; I think in East Europe the languages showing the strongest this trend are Russian(s) - plus some finnic trends? - Polish and Czechoslovakian ones, more than the South Slavic languages which ("learned slavics"?). Turkic languages show all of them some palatalization, but it seems the Volga turkic ones would show the strongest tendancy on the matter, not only for consonnants but also for vowels. I know convergences exist but here I wonder if the trend did not come from this area or close areas a bit further East??? The "neutral" or central PIE localization before radiatin towards every direction could have been more western so again around Ukraine. Only guesses.
 
Dov, I don't disagree as a whole (ATW I only do hypothesis of amateur)
I guess CWC had an early IE on way to satemization they imported to Scandinavia before other IE tribes input. for the most palatalization is a phonetic palatalizing process; I think in East Europe the languages showing the strongest this trend are Russian(s) - plus some finnic trends? - Polish and Czechoslovakian ones, more than the South Slavic languages which ("learned slavics"?). Turkic languages show all of them some palatalization, but it seems the Volga turkic ones would show the strongest tendancy on the matter, not only for consonnants but also for vowels. I know convergences exist but here I wonder if the trend did not come from this area or close areas a bit further East??? The "neutral" or central PIE localization before radiatin towards every direction could have been more western so again around Ukraine. Only guesses.

This is another reason. Well said.

Centum languages, roughly speaking, also seem to show more archaisms in comparison to Satem languages, which would be consistent with early departure at the interface with the Balkan complexes.
 
Many of their agricultural terms are borrowed from the Middle East languages. These words like the type of activity were alien to them and obviously borrowed from outside.

L. Zaliznyak: (although there are some controversial terms, such as borrowing a horse, as for me)


By the time this coincides with the contacts Eneolithic Dereivka culture with Tripolye.
And this why agrarian cultures, including Anatolia, hardly can be considered as IE. Because many agricultural terms for In PIE have non Indo-European roots.

A main lexicon IE can be even north-Mesolithic. All this flora and fauna (elks and birches), as well as the names of different tools.

And Samara and Dnepro-Donets are similar, why not. All these cultures have common Mesolithic roots.

If you think that DD had a similar language to Samara, then you would also have to presume that when this language first mixed with farmers we would have PIE. This would have occured in the West in Ukraine.

Maybe it is just Samara hegemony interacting with the Caucuses, which is essentially a Mesopotamian proxy. It's possible. I just don't think it's as likely as PIE at contact with Balkans.
 
The oldest R1a in general, the oldest R1a-M417, and the oldest R1a-Z93:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=13911&p=1318959&viewfull=1#post1318959

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Je9MSxLd...O511e2oCgCLcBGAs/s1600/R1a-M417_The_Beast.png

R1a-M417_The_Beast.png


 
Yes, indeed, we need the perspective of bizarre you-tubers dedicated to Nordic paganism. This stuff is going to rot your brain, Tomenable.
 
No, he speaks the truth. They were forged by Odin in the mountains of Norway, were 8 feet tall, and blonde. They brought civilization to the cannibalistic farmer tribes by establishing institutions where they learned how to read, as well as basic math skills.

Fun fact: their societies were completely matrialinic and allowed women to serve in their militaries. The Amazonian tribes as spoken of by the ancient Greeks consisted of 7 ft tall Nordic female Viking warriors.
 
No, he speaks the truth. They were forged by Odin in the mountains of Norway, were 8 feet tall, and blonde. They brought civilization to the cannibalistic farmer tribes by establishing institutions where they learned how to read, as well as basic math skills.

Fun fact: their societies were completely matrialinic and allowed women to serve in their militaries. The Amazonian tribes as spoken of by the ancient Greeks consisted of 7 ft tall Nordic female Viking warriors.

Ancient cannibals established civilization .. it is known .. it is known.

 
So now let's wait for R1b-L51 from the Steppe.
 
So now let's wait for R1b-L51 from the Steppe.

What's the TMRCA? Like 6000 ybp?

I would expect to find it somewhere in Ukraine. We've tested a bunch of Ukraine samples, but I don't think much from the Yamnaya horizon proper.
 
the rather North position of R1b-L11 and maybe later first U106 (noproblem for modern U106) put me to believe L51 was in East-(North-East?) non-russian Europe; P312 took rather the Central Europe road. Someones will say the oldest samples are not in Eastern Europe, OK, but I imagine, with caution, that we have kind of a trail in East-Central Europe for L51 with descendants growing in density towards West. DOn't forget R1b has later been overrun by R1a bearers in Eastern Europe. For what it's worth. To date, without more ancient R1b-L51, we are reduced to do bets, but the brothers Z2103 being in the Steppes, I doubt western L23 made huge leaps directly to SW Europe before giving birth to L51. Wait and see.
 
the rather North position of R1b-L11 and maybe later first U106 (noproblem for modern U106) put me to believe L51 was in East-(North-East?) non-russian Europe; P312 took rather the Central Europe road. Someones will say the oldest samples are not in Eastern Europe, OK, but I imagine, with caution, that we have kind of a trail in East-Central Europe for L51 with descendants growing in density towards West. DOn't forget R1b has later been overrun by R1a bearers in Eastern Europe. For what it's worth. To date, without more ancient R1b-L51, we are reduced to do bets, but the brothers Z2103 being in the Steppes, I doubt western L23 made huge leaps directly to SW Europe before giving birth to L51. Wait and see.

If people aren't dead set on EBA Steppe genome=PIE, then I see nothing wrong with an L51 launch point in NE Europe. But if we need EBA steppe genotype, then our L51 would likely need to have remained in the Pontic region until 4000-4500BCish at the earliest.

To @Dov's point, L51 launch point to the East of Derievka on the lower Don makes some sense. This is also closer to the presumed source of the CHG that we see increase from the mesolithic to the EBA. The Alexandria sample predates Yamnaya, which is consistent with a more southerly origin of the EBA steppe genotype.



This will all make sense if we see that Maykop is mostly CHG with a minority of EHG, and that the EBA steppe genotype has a clear origin in the South nearer to Maykop. Then my Balkan theory of farming economy will be supplanted by the quasi-Mesopotamian via The Caucuses which always seemed to make the least sense given the whole body of data.
 
Two Copper Age individuals (I4110 and I6561, Ukraine_Eneolithic) from Dereivka and Alexandria dated to ~ 3600-3400 BCE (and thus preceding the Yamnaya complex) also have mixtures of steppe-and NW Anatolian Neolithic-related ancestry (Figure 1D, Supplementary Data Table 2).

Mathieson et al. (2017) didn't actually identify Y-DNA or mtDNA haplogroups of these ancient Ukrainian samples but they did PCA analysis on these ancient samples. I cannot find any relevant information on R1a in the main text and the supplementary paper attached to it, in which I6561 is included in the long list.

Alexandria (1 individual)

An Eneolithic cemetery of the Sredny Stog II culture was excavated by D. Telegin in 1955-1957 near the village of Alexandria, Kupyansk district, Kharkov region on the left bank of the river Oskol.105 A total of 33 individuals were recovered.106 Based on craniometric analysis (I.Potekhina 1999) it was suggested that the Eneolithic inhabitants of Alexandria were not homogeneous and resulted from admixture of local Neolithic hunter-gatherers and early farmers, possibly Trypillian groups.107 We report genetic data from one individual:

I6561
 
If people aren't dead set on EBA Steppe genome=PIE, then I see nothing wrong with an L51 launch point in NE Europe. But if we need EBA steppe genotype, then our L51 would likely need to have remained in the Pontic region until 4000-4500BCish at the earliest.

To @Dov's point, L51 launch point to the East of Derievka on the lower Don makes some sense. This is also closer to the presumed source of the CHG that we see increase from the mesolithic to the EBA. The Alexandria sample predates Yamnaya, which is consistent with a more southerly origin of the EBA steppe genotype.



This will all make sense if we see that Maykop is mostly CHG with a minority of EHG, and that the EBA steppe genotype has a clear origin in the South nearer to Maykop. Then my Balkan theory of farming economy will be supplanted by the quasi-Mesopotamian via The Caucuses which always seemed to make the least sense given the whole body of data.

Very possible - in my post #55 I put north-east between brackets; I think indeed L51 were in touch with southern pops forming maybe a continuum of R1b clans - L11 is a later stage, but born in close enough areas too - my aim was to show L51 was not a southeastern Europe haplo for the most, even less a southwestern one by origin -
concerning genesis, I can imagine PIE tribes had inputs of West (CTC) and South (Caucus) with their acquisitions on agricultural ground - for Maykop I'm still between two thoughts: seemingly they physically shew ties with S-East Caspian more than to Caucasus pops and this could be linked to the so criticized 'caucasus'><'gedrosia' opposition in Europe - but this does not exclude a East to West travel South the Caspian across Caucasus mountains. But I stay puzzled with this so peculiar Maykop phenomenon, maybe more a chieftains raiders society than a constructive agricole one?
 
Very possible - in my post #55 I put north-east between brackets; I think indeed L51 were in touch with southern pops forming maybe a continuum of R1b clans - L11 is a later stage, but born in close enough areas too - my aim was to show L51 was not a southeastern Europe haplo for the most, even less a southwestern one by origin -
concerning genesis, I can imagine PIE tribes had inputs of West (CTC) and South (Caucus) with their acquisitions on agricultural ground - for Maykop I'm still between two thoughts: seemingly they physically shew ties with S-East Caspian more than to Caucasus pops and this could be linked to the so criticized 'caucasus'><'gedrosia' opposition in Europe - but this does not exclude a East to West travel South the Caspian across Caucasus mountains. But I stay puzzled with this so peculiar Maykop phenomenon, maybe more a chieftains raiders society than a constructive agricole one?

Where is Goga and Alan as we move to the Caucuses? In Spite of all the R1 in Mesolithic->BA Europe this should give Iranians and Kurds hope of the pure Teal R1b-L51.
 
Personally, to date, I don't think these L51 come from Sth-Caucasus, I'm not sure R1b was the principal element among Maykop elites even, but I cannot exclude they already had others R1b subgroups, more eastern (Central Asia). But we can say we know there were since long ago contacts between W-Steppes people and Southern ones North the Caucasus.
 

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