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Thread: Oldest R1a M417 yet, guess where it was found.

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    Oldest R1a M417 yet, guess where it was found.

    New Mathison et al. 2017 prepint at bioRxiv The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe. It includes new genomes including several from Eneolithic Ukraine. Two have a genetic structure similar to Corded Ware and the male belongs to Y DNA R1a M417 and mtDNA H2a1a.

    I6561, Alexandria Ukraine, 3500 BC, Y DNA R1a M417, mtDNA H2a1a.

    He might have all the EEF admixture Corded Ware needs which could mean Corded Ware people were straight migrants from the Steppe with no local admixture.

    Apparently, he isn't labelled to any famous Eneolithic culture, he certainly wasn't a Yamnaya person. Maybe Corded Ware emerged from an Eneolithic Steppe people who left little traces in archaeology hence the debate in archaeology whether Corded Ware was indigenous to Central Europe or a newcomer from the Steppe.

    So this is what we've got. An unamed Eneolithic R1a M417 ethnolingustic group first appears in Ukraine in 3500 BC. Then we see them all over Eastern Europe in 2500 BC and in Samara Russia in 2800 BC. Then much later we, in around 1800 BC, we see them in Central Asia and Siberia in the form of Andronovo and Sintashta. Around that time they arrived in South Asia and Afghanistan. Andronovo is the ancestor of the early historical Sycthians and Corded Ware is the main ancestor of modern Balts and many Slavic speakers.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Another important thing to mention is this Eneolithic Ukraine guy very likely wasn't indigenous to Ukraine. Ukraine Neolithic and Mesolithic genomes belong mostly to R1b1a and I2a2 and have loads of WHG. He may have originated somewhere further east where EHG and CHG had the oppurtunity to mix. Then again maybe some Ukraine HGs had loads of ANE and R1a.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Not surprising. That's exactly what I proposed in my R1a history several years ago. My R1a migration map even shows the origin of M417 around Ukraine between Dnieper-Donets and Yamna (Eneolithic Ukraine fits this time frame, although I didn't mention it because there is no specific name of culture).




    My phylogenetic tree shows that M17 and M417 originated in the Mesolithic but R1a-M417 started expanding during the Chalcolithic (Eneolithic) period.




    H2a1 is one of the mtDNA I found to be correlated with the original PIE R1a branch. Among them C4a, U2e, U4 and U5a1a could be considered Mesolithic Steppe, while the H (H1b, H1c, H2a1, H6, H7, H11) and T1a1a1 would probably have migrated from the Balkans to the Steppe during the Neolithic and Chalcolithic. H1b in particular was confirmed in Cucuteni-Tripolye and likely entered the Steppe from there. H7 was found in LBK Hungary (Alföld), and LBK later did expand until Ukraine. H1c and H11 were found in Blätterhöhle (Late Neolithic Germany) in a population largely dominated by U5b2a, suggesting a sizeable Mesolithic European component (and indeed the Blätterhöhle site started in the Mesolithic and continued in the Neolithic). H2a1 itself would probably have come from the Caucasus during the Mesolithic or Neolithic, as it hasn't been found in Neolithic Europe yet.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 20-09-17 at 09:42.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    it is reported as Sredny Stog, but also as a meeting point with other cultures :

    Alexandria (1 individual)An Eneolithic cemetery of the Sredny Stog II culture was excavated by D. Telegin in 1955-1957 near the village of Alexandria, Kupyansk district, Kharkov region on the left bank of theriver Oskol.105A total of 33 individuals were recovered.106 Based on craniometric analysis (I.Potekhina 1999) it was suggested that the Eneolithic inhabitants of Alexandria were nothomogeneous and resulted from admixture of local Neolithic hunter-gatherers and earlyfarmers, possibly Trypillian groups.107 We report genetic data from one individual:• I6561

    both Y and mtDNA don't point toward Sredny Stog

    mtDNA H2a1a points toward CHG admixture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    New Mathison et al. 2017 prepint at bioRxiv The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe. It includes new genomes including several from Eneolithic Ukraine. Two have a genetic structure similar to Corded Ware and the male belongs to Y DNA R1a M417 and mtDNA H2a1a.

    I6561, Alexandria Ukraine, 3500 BC, Y DNA R1a M417, mtDNA H2a1a.

    He might have all the EEF admixture Corded Ware needs which could mean Corded Ware people were straight migrants from the Steppe with no local admixture.

    Apparently, he isn't labelled to any famous Eneolithic culture, he certainly wasn't a Yamnaya person. Maybe Corded Ware emerged from an Eneolithic Steppe people who left little traces in archaeology hence the debate in archaeology whether Corded Ware was indigenous to Central Europe or a newcomer from the Steppe.

    So this is what we've got. An unamed Eneolithic R1a M417 ethnolingustic group first appears in Ukraine in 3500 BC. Then we see them all over Eastern Europe in 2500 BC and in Samara Russia in 2800 BC. Then much later we, in around 1800 BC, we see them in Central Asia and Siberia in the form of Andronovo and Sintashta. Around that time they arrived in South Asia and Afghanistan. Andronovo is the ancestor of the early historical Sycthians and Corded Ware is the main ancestor of modern Balts and many Slavic speakers.
    where did you find the dating, 3500 BC ?

    did you find his autosomal DNA composition ?

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    6 out of 6 members found this post helpful.
    The paper mentions a lot of other neat things to mull over:

    1. Iron gates HGs are unique, Balkans possible Ice age refuge that re-introduced WHG like ancestry to Europe -

    "This population (Iron_Gates_HG) is represented in our study by 40 individuals from five sites.Modeling Iron Gates hunter gatherers as a mixture of WHG and EHG (Supplementary Table 3) shows that they are intermediate between WHG (~85%) and EHG (~15%). However, this qpAdm model does not fit well (p =0.0003, Supplementry table 3) and the Iron Gates hunter - gatherers carry mitochondrial haplogroup K1 (7/40) as well as other subclades of haplogroups U (32/40)and H (1/40). This contrasts with WHG, EHG and Scandinavian hunter-gatherers who almost all carry haplogroups U5 or U2. One interpretation is that the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers have ancestry that is not present in either WHG or EHG. Possible scenarios include genetic contact between the ancestors of the Iron Gates population and Anatolia, or that the Iron Gates population is related to the source population from which the WHG split during a re-expansion into Europe from the Southeast after the Last Glacial Maximum."

    2. More evidence of WHG resurgence in west and central Europe. Male dominated, not only changed genes but culture -

    "In the Balkans, Copper Age populations (Balkans_Chalcolithic) harbor significantly more hunter gatherer-related ancestry than Neolithic populations as shown, for example, by the statistic D( Mbuti,WHG, Balkans_Neolithic, Balkans_Chalcolithic); Z=4.3(Supplementary Data Table 2). This is roughly contemporary with the “resurgence” of hunter-gatherer ancestry previously reported in central Europe and Iberia and is consistent with changes in funeral rites, specifically the reappearance around 4500 BCE of the Mesolithic tradition of extended supine burial–in contrast to the Early Neolithic tradition of flexed burial."

    "We provide the first evidence for sex - biased admixture between hunter - gatherers and farmers in Europe, showing that the Middle Neolithic “resurgence” of hunter gatherer-related ancestry in central Europe and Iberia was driven more by males than by females."

    3. GAC acted as barrier to steppe ancestry -

    "Both Globular Amphora Complex groups of samples had more hunter gatherer-related ancestry than Middle Neolithic groups from Central Europe (we estimate 25%[CI: 22-27%] WHG ancestry, similar to Chalcolithic Iberia, Supplementary Data Table 3). In east-central Europe, the Globular Amphora Complex preceded or abutted the Corded Ware Complex that marks the appearance of steppe - related ancestry, while in southeastern Europe, the Globular Amphora Complex bordered populations with steppe - influenced material cultures for hundreds of years and yet the individuals in our study have no evidence of steppe related ancestry, providing support for the hypothesis that this material cultural frontier was also a barrier to gene flow."

    4. Earliest westward steppe ancestry -

    "In two directly dated individuals from southeastern Europe, one (ANI163) from the Varna I cemetery dated to 4711-4550 BCE and one (I2181) from nearby Smyadovo dated to 4550-4450 BCE, we find far earlier evidence of steppe- related ancestry (Figure 1B,D). These findings push back the first evidence of steppe-related ancestry this far West in Europe by almost 2,000 years but it was sporadic as other Copper Age (~5000-4000BCE) individuals from the Balkans have no evidence of it."

    5. European Neolithic Farmers share common ancestor from NW Anatolia and are WHG shifted, Greek farmers are an outlier and might share common ancestors with Central Anatolians that are CHG shifted -

    "An important question about the initial spread of farming into Europe is whether the first farmers that brought agriculture to northern Europe and to southern Europe were derived from a single population or instead represent distinct migrations. We confirm that Mediterranean populations, represented in our study by individuals associated with the Epicardial Early Neolithic from Iberia, are closely related to Danubian populations represented by the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) from central Europe and that both are closely related to the Balkan Neolithic population. These three populations form a clade with the NW Anatolian Neolithic individuals as an outgroup, consistent with a single migration into the Balkan peninsula, which then split into two (Supplementary Information Note 3). In contrast, five southern Greek Neolithic individuals (Peloponnese_Neolithic)– three (plus one previously published) from Diros Cave and one from Franchthi Cave are not consistent with descending from the same source population as other European farmers D-statistics (Supplementary Information Table 2) show that in fact, these “Peloponnese Neolithic” individuals dated to ~4000BCE are shifted away from WHG and towards CHG, relative to Anatolian and Balkan Neolithic individuals.

    "
    Possible sources are related to the Neolithic population from the central Anatolian site of Tepecik Ciftlik, or the Aegean site of Kumtepe, who are also shifted towards CHG relative to NW Anatolian Neolithic samples, as are later Copper and Bronze Age Anatolians"

    6. Doubt cast on steppe like individuals bringing IE languages to Anatolia -

    "No evidence that steppe-related ancestry moved through southeast Europe into Anatolia"

    "Moreover, while Bronze Age Anatolian individuals have CHG-related ancestry, they have neither the EHG-related ancestry characteristic of all steppe populations sampled to date, nor the WHG -related ancestry that is ubiquitous in Neolithic southeastern Europe (Extended Data Figure 2, Supplementary Data Table2). An alternative hypothesis is that the ultimate homeland of Proto-Indo-European languages was in the Caucasus or in Iran. In this scenario, westward movement contributed to the dispersal of Anatolian languages, and northward movement and mixture with EHG was responsible for the formation of a “Late Proto-Indo European”- speaking population associated with the Yamnaya Complex. While this scenario gains plausibility from our results, it remains possible that Indo-European languages were spread through southeastern Europe into Anatolia without large scale population movement or admixture. "
    Last edited by Promenade; 20-09-17 at 16:59.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Thank-you, Promenade. There's certainly a lot here, some of it new. I don't remember this being spelled out so clearly in the first "edition" of the paper:

    ""This population (Iron_Gates_HG) is represented in our study by 40 individuals from five sites.Modeling Iron Gates hunter gatherers as a mixture of WHG and EHG (Supplementary Table 3) shows that they are intermediate between WHG (~85%) and EHG (~15%). However, this qpAdm model does not fit well (p =0.0003, Supplementry table 3) and the Iron Gates hunter - gatherers carry mitochondrial haplogroup K1 (7/40) as well as other subclades of haplogroups U (32/40)and H (1/40). This contrasts with WHG, EHG and Scandinavian hunter-gatherers who almost all carry haplogroups U5 or U2. One interpretation is that the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers have ancestry that is not present in either WHG or EHG. Possible scenarios include genetic contact between the ancestors of the Iron Gates population and Anatolia, or that the Iron Gates population is related to the source population from which the WHG split during a re-expansion into Europe from the Southeast after the Last Glacial Maximum.""


    Given the mtDna, I wonder if the first scenario is more plausible, with yDna I2a going south and these maternal lineages going north? Or perhaps it's both, with the latter scenario occurring first and then the first?


    Nice to have this confirmed as well...both LBK and Epicardial derive from the same Balkan Neolithic population. The split occurred in Europe, as I've believed since I read Paschou et al. I never understood why there was such vitriol heaped on that paper by some people at Anthrogenica and at theapricity from what I'm told. He's been proved correct on that point, at least, and he did it with modern dna.
    http://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211.full

    The Peloponnese Neolithic is different, and already contained CHG. (Two of the four already lean "Anatolian Bronze Age", so I'd be leery of interpreting modeling that shows "Anatolian Bronze Age" genetics in Europe as only having arrived in Europe in the actual European Bronze Age.

    I have speculated for years that some strands of the Neolithic might have contained some CHG. There is Otzi, for example, although he was Copper Age. Well, here it is, and in 4000 BCE. Now, the question is: does that mean that some of the CHG in mainland Greeks, at least Peloponnese Greeks, has been in them since this time, and is that true of any other areas in Europe? In other words, did this flow go into other areas of the Balkans and Italy directly as well, or was there migration flow from these Neolithic Greeks into other parts of Greece, the Balkans or perhaps into Italy?

    Some of this was prefigured in Kilinc et al:
    http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    We discussed it here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive...p/t-32591.html

    ""An important question about the initial spread of farming into Europe is whether the first farmers that brought agriculture to northern Europe and to southern Europe were derived from a single population or instead represent distinct migrations. We confirm that Mediterranean populations, represented in our study by individuals associated with the Epicardial Early Neolithic from Iberia, are closely related to Danubian populations represented by the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) from central Europe and that both are closely related to the Balkan Neolithic population. These three populations form a clade with the NW Anatolian Neolithic individuals as an outgroup, consistent with a single migration into the Balkan peninsula, which then split into two (Supplementary Information Note 3). In contrast, five southern Greek Neolithic individuals(Peloponnese_Neolithic)– three (plus one previously published) from Diros Cave and one from Franchthi Cave are not consistent with descending from the same source population as other European farmers D-statistics (Supplementary Information Table 2) show that in fact, these “Peloponnese Neolithic” individuals dated to ~4000BCE are shifted away from WHG and towards CHG, relative to Anatolian and Balkan Neolithic individuals.

    "Possible sources are related to the Neolithic population from the central Anatolian site of Tepecik Ciftlik, or the Aegean site of Kumtepe, who are also shifted towards CHG relative to NW Anatolian Neolithic samples, as are later Copper and Bronze Age Anatolians""

    I'm sure the comments about proto-Indo European are going over like a lead balloon in certain quarters. Either they're just building interest or they have a surprise in store for us and want to prepare the ground. :)


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Some other interesting things:

    "Unexpectedly, one Neolithic individual from Dereivka (I3719), which we directly date to
    4949-4799 BCE, has entirely NW Anatolian Neolithic-related ancestry."

    Now, does that mean this individual is related to the more CHG/Iran Neo related Kumtepe 6 samples (and Peloponnese Neolithic) than the standard early Balkan Neolithic? We've speculated a lot about this here, as I said above. I wonder if this ancestry could have come across northern Anatolia, i.e. the southern Black Sea Coast?

    Since there is such early admixture between farmer groups and steppe people in this area of the Balkans, that strengthens the position of Anthony when he said domestic animals moved from "Old Europe" east into the steppe. Now, he included sheep and goats in that exchange, which the early farmers did indeed bring with them to Europe.

    If that's the case, then it would indeed be hard to see what any putative migration from the Caucasus would have brought, which would bring us back to bride exchange as an explanation for the steadily increasing CHG. I would say it was some forms of bronze metallurgy (there was a more proximate source from copper metallurgy in "Old Europe", but this increase seems to be older than that, yes?

    Of course, the proportion of cattle in the mixture steadily increased as one went north, so it may be that these farmer groups did not introduce sheep and goats onto the steppe, and that these were introduced into the eastern steppe by Caucasus like groups.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ukraine Mesolithic, Neolithic and Iron_Gates_HG are admixed relative to WHG and EHG. Iron_Gates_HG shares ancestry with Anatolian Neolithic.
    Mesolithic/EN->Neolithic/MN population transformations in Latvia and Ukraine are in opposite directions.
    Ukraine Neolithic is shifted towards WHG and has less EHG/ANE ancestry relative to Mesolithic
    Ukraine Eneolithic has Anatolian Neolithic and CHG ancestry.
    Malak Preslavets has more HG ancestry than Balkans Neolithic
    Balkans Chalcolithic has more HG (both WHG and EHG) ancestry than Balkans Neolithic
    Balkans Bronze Age has more WHG and Steppe (EHG+CHG) ancestry than Balkans Chalcolithic
    LBK and Iberia_EN have more WHG ancestry than Balkans Neolithic
    LBK_Austria has the same HG ancestry as LBK_EN (from Germany)
    LBK has same HG ancestry as Starcevo
    Globular Amphora has more WHG ancestry than Central_MN
    Varna has similar HG ancestry to Balkans Chalcolithic and no Steppe ancestry
    Trypillia has more HG ancestry than Balkans Chalcolithic and no Steppe ancestry
    Varna_outlier has Steppe ancestry. Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier may have steppe ancestry but has no evidence of CHG component (however number of SNPs is low).
    Krepost Neolithic and Peloponnese Neolithic are both shifted towards CHG and away from WHG, relative to Anatolia Neolithic - a similar pattern to that seen in Minoans
    The Anatolia Neolithic to Anatolia Bronze Age shift is driven by changes in CHG and Iran Neolithc ancestry not by migration from Steppe populations that have EHG ancestry
    An increase in CHG/Iran_N in Chalcolithic Anatolia is not seen in Central Europe or Iberia Middle Neolithic, or between the Balkans neolithic and Chalcolithic.
    Outlier Yamnaya individuals have Anatolian Neolithic ancestry.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    New Mathison et al. 2017 prepint at bioRxiv The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe. It includes new genomes including several from Eneolithic Ukraine. Two have a genetic structure similar to Corded Ware and the male belongs to Y DNA R1a M417 and mtDNA H2a1a.

    I6561, Alexandria Ukraine, 3500 BC, Y DNA R1a M417, mtDNA H2a1a.

    He might have all the EEF admixture Corded Ware needs which could mean Corded Ware people were straight migrants from the Steppe with no local admixture.

    Apparently, he isn't labelled to any famous Eneolithic culture, he certainly wasn't a Yamnaya person. Maybe Corded Ware emerged from an Eneolithic Steppe people who left little traces in archaeology hence the debate in archaeology whether Corded Ware was indigenous to Central Europe or a newcomer from the Steppe.

    So this is what we've got. An unamed Eneolithic R1a M417 ethnolingustic group first appears in Ukraine in 3500 BC. Then we see them all over Eastern Europe in 2500 BC and in Samara Russia in 2800 BC. Then much later we, in around 1800 BC, we see them in Central Asia and Siberia in the form of Andronovo and Sintashta. Around that time they arrived in South Asia and Afghanistan. Andronovo is the ancestor of the early historical Sycthians and Corded Ware is the main ancestor of modern Balts and many Slavic speakers.
    This is a Sredny Stog sample, and is EXACTLY what I've been saying about Sredny Stog since long before anyone else. They've looked like the origin of Corded Ware since long before any genetic data.

    I've stated ad nauseam that Sredny Stog will be the earliest samples to resemble Corded Ware and MBA/LBA Steppe i.e. the first example of Steppe+EEF, which is then seen in all presumed IE speakers shortly following.

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    This isn't a new sample. This was in the original publication and I posted about it in the original thread.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Given the mtDna, I wonder if the first scenario is more plausible, with yDna I2a going south and these maternal lineages going north? Or perhaps it's both, with the latter scenario occurring first and then the first?
    Well from the mtdna we currently have available from Iron Gates HGs it doesn’t look out of the ordinary to me. The paper mentions “other subclades” of U, but so far they are all U5 and U4 and even the subclade of K they have isn’t out of the ordinary in Europe, but maybe they also have foreign mtdna subclades that haven’t been revealed yet.

    Also if I2a went south, why didn’t R1b? Many of the IG HGs have R1b and so did all their Romanian HG neighbors.

    I’m interested in seeing just what separates IG HGs from all the other European Hunter Gatherers now though. If it is was Anatolia contact wouldn’t we expect to see EEF ancestry in them and at least some ydna G? And as far as I know their mtdna doesn’t seem to peculiar either. In my opinion it’s more likely that they are a source population from which the rest of the WHGs split from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Some other interesting things:

    "Unexpectedly, one Neolithic individual from Dereivka (I3719), which we directly date to
    4949-4799 BCE, has entirely NW Anatolian Neolithic-related ancestry."

    Now, does that mean this individual is related to the more CHG/Iran Neo related Kumtepe 6 samples (and Peloponnese Neolithic) than the standard early Balkan Neolithic? We've speculated a lot about this here, as I said above. I wonder if this ancestry could have come across northern Anatolia, i.e. the southern Black Sea Coast?
    If they described him as being “entirely NW Anatolian Neolithic related” then I would think the opposite. He probably has no CHG and is similar to other European Farmers outside of Greece. On figure 1B you can see that he is probably even less CHG shifted than the other Balkan Neolithic samples.

    In fact he looks like a really pure version of Balkan Neolithic, which is entirely odd because he is much younger than most of the others and is found way farther north and east. Perhaps it was a disillusioned man sick of his farmer lifestyle looking to connect with his hunter gatherer roots? More likely I think it will be a woman, probably traded away. I wonder what style burial this individual was given?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    Well from the mtdna we currently have available from Iron Gates HGs it doesn’t look out of the ordinary to me. The paper mentions “other subclades” of U, but so far they are all U5 and U4 and even the subclade of K they have isn’t out of the ordinary in Europe, but maybe they also have foreign mtdna subclades that haven’t been revealed yet.

    Also if I2a went south, why didn’t R1b? Many of the IG HGs have R1b and so did all their Romanian HG neighbors.

    I’m interested in seeing just what separates IG HGs from all the other European Hunter Gatherers now though. If it is was Anatolia contact wouldn’t we expect to see EEF ancestry in them and at least some ydna G? And as far as I know their mtdna doesn’t seem to peculiar either. In my opinion it’s more likely that they are a source population from which the rest of the WHGs split from.
    Those are very good points. Although, how then did I2a get into Anatolia.

    As for why there's no EEF ancestry in IG's hunter-gatherers, how could there be a J1 hunter-gatherer in Karelia without it? After enough time breeding with locals, the initial linkage breaks?

    I think this is still pretty murky, perhaps to them as well.

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    I know that Kleitos is G2a2a
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Those are very good points. Although, how then did I2a get into Anatolia.

    As for why there's no EEF ancestry in IG's hunter-gatherers, how could there be a J1 hunter-gatherer in Karelia without it? After enough time breeding with locals, the initial linkage breaks?

    I think this is still pretty murky, perhaps to them as well.
    I2 are the Villabrunans who spread over Central and Western Europe and the Ukraine 15 ka.
    I think their origin lies in Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I2 are the Villabrunans who spread over Central and Western Europe and the Ukraine 15 ka.
    I think their origin lies in Anatolia.
    Now that makes sense to me.

    Oh, and thanks for post # nine above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Another important thing to mention is this Eneolithic Ukraine guy very likely wasn't indigenous to Ukraine. Ukraine Neolithic and Mesolithic genomes belong mostly to R1b1a and I2a2 and have loads of WHG. He may have originated somewhere further east where EHG and CHG had the oppurtunity to mix. Then again maybe some Ukraine HGs had loads of ANE and R1a.
    Yes you are right. Neolithic Ukraine was replaced by the new Eneolithic population, which occurs probably from the Don region. This has long been noted by archeology and paleoanthropology, and now we also have evidence of paleogenetics. The earliest traces of the Sredniy Stog begin in the Rostov - Don area.
    Previous aDNA data from those cemeteries as the early Derievka is not yet ancestral for CW and BB. Probably because of this we have collision with a shortage of European R1b in those burials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    This is a Sredny Stog sample, and is EXACTLY what I've been saying about Sredny Stog since long before anyone else. They've looked like the origin of Corded Ware since long before any genetic data.

    I've stated ad nauseam that Sredny Stog will be the earliest samples to resemble Corded Ware and MBA/LBA Steppe i.e. the first example of Steppe+EEF, which is then seen in all presumed IE speakers shortly following.
    Nice Job!! No more everything Steppe=Yamanya. Maybe Steppe and PIE might originated in Sredny Stog like in 4500 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    This is a Sredny Stog sample, and is EXACTLY what I've been saying about Sredny Stog since long before anyone else. They've looked like the origin of Corded Ware since long before any genetic data.

    I've stated ad nauseam that Sredny Stog will be the earliest samples to resemble Corded Ware and MBA/LBA Steppe i.e. the first example of Steppe+EEF, which is then seen in all presumed IE speakers shortly following.
    Similar to the Corded ornament (which is typical for CW and BB) was in the Volga area. Also, Sredniy Stog begins its expansion from the Don and replace old populations. And Don is pretty close to the Volga.
    This explains the similarity of the Sredniy Stog and Khvalynsk. And also the explain secret of their horse breeding, which probably originated in the Volga region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Nice Job!! No more everything Steppe=Yamanya. Maybe Steppe and PIE might originated in Sredny Stog like in 4500 BC.
    I'm not one to boast about my alleged predictions, but I learned from the best on this site. And I had to claim some props for this one. I saw this sample in one of the versions I read when the original thread was hot. Are there additional Ukraine Eneolithic besides the 3? They seem to make reference to them in the supplementary info, but that's all I can find.

    Yes, the mechanism for dispersal of the languages is looking more complex than Yamnaya=PIE. Sredny Stog/Khvalynsk probably spoke something close to PIE with the full farming lexicon. I imagine this was something closer to Anatolian than the hypothetical reconstruction. The East probably moved towards Indo-Iranian and the West to Italo-Celtic. The Italo-Celtic moved into the interior of Europe first, while Indo-Iranian genetically homogenized and it's Western portion moved towards Baltic and the East to Iranian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Similar to the Corded ornament (which is typical for CW and BB) was in the Volga area. Also, Sredniy Stog begins its expansion from the Don and replace old populations. And Don is pretty close to the Volga.
    This explains the similarity of the Sredniy Stog and Khvalynsk. And also the explain secret of their horse breeding, which probably originated in the Volga region.
    Agreed. I was leaving out the horses for the moment, but this was surely a key component to everything. There does appear to be a priority to Samara, which we also see in the genetics, but the move from Dneiper-Donets to Sredny-Stog doesn't look to require Samara on a material basis i.e. Dneiper-Donets and Samara appear to be culturally homogeneous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Yes you are right. Neolithic Ukraine was replaced by the new Eneolithic population, which occurs probably from the Don region. This has long been noted by archeology and paleoanthropology, and now we also have evidence of paleogenetics. The earliest traces of the Sredniy Stog begin in the Rostov - Don area.
    Previous aDNA data from those cemeteries as the early Derievka is not yet ancestral for CW and BB. Probably because of this we have collision with a shortage of European R1b in those burials.
    Yes. This supports the priority of the Volga region.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    This is a Sredny Stog sample, and is EXACTLY what I've been saying about Sredny Stog since long before anyone else. They've looked like the origin of Corded Ware since long before any genetic data.

    I've stated ad nauseam that Sredny Stog will be the earliest samples to resemble Corded Ware and MBA/LBA Steppe i.e. the first example of Steppe+EEF, which is then seen in all presumed IE speakers shortly following.
    Kudos on this. I did not make any prediction as to whether Sredny Stog would be more ancestral to Corded Ware or to the western R1b branch (Unetice, etc.). It's a bit early to tell if it was overwhelmingly R1a rather than R1b, but at least there is evidence that R1a-M417 was present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Kudos on this. I did not make any prediction as to whether Sredny Stog would be more ancestral to Corded Ware or to the western R1b branch (Unetice, etc.). It's a bit early to tell if it was overwhelmingly R1a rather than R1b, but at least there is evidence that R1a-M417 was present.
    I guess with all my inane posting I was bound to get something right, or at least supported by unexpected results.

    I was going on a simple archaeological question predicated largely on the fact that we hadn't yet seen any genomes from these spots. Where do we see the earliest blatant evidence of steppe culture mixing with the Balkan farming complexes? The answer was clearly and undoubtedly Sredny Stog.

    And upon closer examination the pottery looks precisely what one would expected early versions of corded ware to look like. Then we see this EEF-Steppe type all across NW Eurasia and NE Europe in the following thousand or so years, which strongly suggests something very important about early interactions with steppe and farmers.

    One of the big problems with PIE as we know is the highly sophisticated farming lexicon, which seems to be incompatible with much of the early steppe cultures. Sredny Stog offers a possible solution.

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    I somehow also generalized, I'll try again. It seems that nothing has changed much. Apart from, that primary expansion of the Sredniy Stog was from the East, from the Don region.

    -All existing and historically fixed Indo-Europeans and their languages ​​come from Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. For now, with the exception of the Hittites, but about them a separate conversation.

    -This extension and decay of their languages ​​came from one point.

    - In CW and in BB is present: corded pattern, similar genetics and admixture of farmers, burial on the side. All this leads us to the Derievka. Where the admixture of farmers is obtained from Trypillian women as well as probably burial on the side.

    - It is well seen how Corded Ware hypothetically appears from Derievka, and begins expansion to the north, into the forest zone. This is how Middle Dnepr culture emerges. All this can be associated with R1a expansion.

    -The question of how the expansion of R1b occurs is still open and incomprehensible. Archaeologically it is difficult to say something. But nevertheless, by indirect evidence (includind archelogical), it still happened. We will be helped only by paleogenetics.

    It is also interesting, why they split with the predominance of R1a and R1b in different populations. Probably there were some preconditions.

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