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Thread: Blood types in ancient Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    Im B-, Seems to be more common in East Asia, but had some hot spots in Central Europe. All in all, I wouldent put to much into it. Its like Haplogroups, just a part of the puzzle.
    Right... if the puzzle gets too difficult, just throw the pieces into the garbage and forget about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    Which app?
    https://dna.frieger.com/calc-heredity.php

    Doesnt say whether its positive or negative

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    https://dna.frieger.com/calc-heredity.php

    Doesnt say whether its positive or negative
    Sorry, first time I have seen the app. What exactly does it do? Give you the ABO most likely to be yours according to genome?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Very interesting. Thanks for posting, Tomenable.

    The role of Rh+ is still unclear but it has been linked to protection against toxoplasmosis (passed on by cats). So cat lovers had better be Rh+.
    Just found something interesting, in fact being Rh-heterozygote is protective not against toxoplasmosis in general, but diminished the negative effects, one of which is the slowing of reflexes.

    As it is mentioned in the above study:
    This high frequency in Europe has long been surprising because the Rh- phenotype has an obviously deleterious effect. In particular, if an Rh- mother has an Rh+ child (because the child inherited a Rh+ allele from its father), then it’s possible for the mother to produce antibodies against the Rh+ antigen leading to haemolytic disease and severe illness for the for the child. There are three common explanations for the high frequency of the Rh- allele. First, there might be some (unknown) beneficial effect of the Rh-allele. Effects like this related to malaria resistance are what drive the high frequencies of the sickle cell trait and many thalassemias. On the other hand, no obvious selective advantage is known, there are no obvious genomic signals of selection on the Rh- allele, and if there were a selective advantage to the Rh- allele then we might ask why it hasn’t fixed, since once the Rh- frequency rose above 50%, it would be selected for, rather than against.
    In fact the following study makes some intriguing suggestions.

    Toxoplasma and reaction time: role of toxoplasmosisin the origin, preservation and geographical distributionof Rh blood group polymorphism


    https://web.natur.cuni.cz/flegr/pdf/rh.pdf

    SUMMARYThe RhD protein which is the RHD gene product and a major component of the Rh blood group system carries thestrongest blood group immunogen, the D-antigen. This antigen is absent in a significant minority of the human population(RhD-negatives) due to RHD deletion or alternation. The origin and persistence of this RhD polymorphism is an oldevolutionary enigma. Before the advent of modern medicine, the carriers of the rarer allele (e.g. RhD-negative women inthe population of RhD-positives or RhD-positive men in the population of RhD-negatives) were at a disadvantage as someof their children (RhD-positive children born to pre-immunized RhD-negative mothers) were at a higher risk of foetal ornewborn death or health impairment from haemolytic disease. Therefore, the RhD-polymorphism should be unstable,unless the disadvantage of carriers of the locally less abundant allele is counterbalanced by, for example, higher viability ofthe heterozygotes. Here we demonstrated for the first time that among Toxoplasma-free subjects the RhD-negative menhad faster reaction times than Rh-positive subjects and showed that heterozygous men with both the RhD plus and RhDminus alleles were protected against prolongation of reaction times caused by infection with the common protozoan parasiteToxoplasma gondii. Our results suggest that the balancing selection favouring heterozygotes could explain the origin andstability of the RhD polymorphism. Moreover, an unequal prevalence of toxoplasmosis in different countries could explainpronounced differences in frequencies of RhD-negative phenotype in geographically distinct populations.

    It is possible that the better psychomotorperformance of RhD-negative subjects in theToxoplasma-free population could be the reason forspreading of the ‘d allele’ (deletion) in the Europeanpopulation. In contrast to the situation in Africa andcertain (but not all) regions of Asia, the abundance ofwild cats (definitive hosts of Toxoplasma gondii) inthe European territory was very low before the adventof the domestic cat (Torrey and Yolken, 1995).Therefore, the prevalence of latent toxoplasmosisin the prehistoric European population was alsoprobably negligible. Currently, the frequency ofRhD-negative subjects in the Caucasian population(with about 30% prevalence of toxoplasmosis) isabout 20% while in the African population with avery high prevalence of toxoplasmosis (RoeverBonnet,1972) it is only 5% (Daniels, 2002).Theoretically, we could expect the decrease of theRhD-minus allele in the European population afterthe advent of the domestic cat; however, this eventwas relatively recent and probably coincided withrelaxation of many forms of natural selection.The protective effect of RhD against theToxoplasma-induced impairment of psychomotorperformance could explain not only the differencesin frequency of RhD-negative subjects in toxoplasmosis-lowand toxoplasmosis-high regions,but also the origin and primary spreading of RHDgene (RHCED duplication) in our African ancestors.A comparison of mean reaction times betweeninfected dd homozygotes and Dd heterozygotesshows that the protective effect of the RhD genotypeon Toxoplasma-induced reaction time changes isrelatively strong.

    Reaction times play an importantrole in interactions with prey and predators as well asin intraspecies combats. In our evolutionary past,the frequency of toxoplasmosis in populations ofour ancestors was probably rather high due to consumptionof raw or undercooked meat and generallylower hygiene standards. Under such conditions, theRhD heterozygotes with the shortest reaction timeswere probably favoured by natural and sexualselection, which could only partly be counterbalancedby the selection against RhD-negativewomen with lower reproductive success.

    If I understand correctly Rh negative individuals due to their better psychomotor performance had a distinct advantage in hand to hand combats and in warrior societies. Hence the high incidents of Rh- among Yamnaya people could have helped them conquer the neolithic farmers ( who were largely Rh positive).

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    [/I]If I understand correctly Rh negative individuals due to their better psychomotor performance had a distinct advantage in hand to hand combats and in warrior societies. Hence the high incidents of Rh- among Yamnaya people could have helped them conquer the neolithic farmers ( who were largely Rh positive).
    Interesting. I have worked with Prof. Flegr on this study:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0141362
    (Mike Dammann is my name)
    Do you have any more data on the Yamnaya people being high in rh negative blood? Would love to look at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    Interesting. I have worked with Prof. Flegr on this study:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0141362
    (Mike Dammann is my name)
    Do you have any more data on the Yamnaya people being high in rh negative blood? Would love to look at it.
    Тhat is the paradox - Rh- people have numerous health problems compared to Rh+, but this harmful mutation is still widely spread. The conclusion is that it must have some unknown benefits, which the study with toxoplasma link is trying to explain.

    The Yamnaya Rh status was extracted from the published ancient genomes as is mentioned in the initial study. Maybe there is more data since, if somebody could mine it from there.
    http://mathii.github.io/2017/09/21/b...ancient-europe

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    I have a Rh+ and my predecessors lived in a circle in a first picture.
    The haplogroup R1A increased here mainly because of a milk lactation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Тhat is the paradox - Rh- people have numerous health problems compared to Rh+, but this harmful mutation is still widely spread. The conclusion is that it must have some unknown benefits, which the study with toxoplasma link is trying to explain.
    I strongly suspect rh negatives being more sensitive towards whatever is bad for people in general and wouldn't be surprised if before pollution, cancer etc., they might have actually been better off than the rest. There could be many other factors such as sex drive as shown in our study. Off hand I can think of a couple of studies showing very low frequencies among HIV patients.

    I believe the world as a whole is unhealthy which affects rh negatives more. And who knows, if food was healthier etc., it is quite possible that our overall health might actually better than that of the average person.

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    My dad being negative is the only oddity in the family, as everyone else is O positive. But then we've got a lot of Irish blood; it's the only ancestry my mother and father have in common. With my dad being the universal donor, he gave blood a lot when I was a kid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    My dad being negative is the only oddity in the family, as everyone else is O positive. But then we've got a lot of Irish blood; it's the only ancestry my mother and father have in common. With my dad being the universal donor, he gave blood a lot when I was a kid.
    I find your mtDNA interesting. Close to:

    • J1c2e : found in northern and central Europe, among the Basques, and in Iran (Persians)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Rh blood groups in modern Europe (look at this high frequency of Rh- in Ukraine):

    This maps shows frequencies of Rh+ (and low frequency of Rh+ = high of Rh-):


    Could you link me to the page where this image is from and/or let me know exactly which ybp we are talking about.

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    Attachment 10354
    I have been reading through the site referenced in your image. The above one strikes out. Where exactly do they say that the other +50 percent region is located. Are they referencing the ancient Hebrews?
    I am of course using translator to read through it, but still a lot of it is messing up, so it would be great if you could clarify a couple of things for me.

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    @firetown--I was second born, 7 children raised to adulthood, none are negative. My father's brother was O- and my mother-in-law's 1/2 brother is O-

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    I find your mtDNA interesting. Close to:

    • J1c2e : found in northern and central Europe, among the Basques, and in Iran (Persians)
    That's not all. At the 15452 marker at the ancestral R2'JT level, I have a reversion to the original T where the descendants have A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    I find your mtDNA interesting. Close to:

    • J1c2e : found in northern and central Europe, among the Basques, and in Iran (Persians)
    J1c specifically is very high in Northern Europe. I've had my Full Mitchondrial Sequencing done at FTDNA. I'm specifically J1c3f and outside of Ireland the majority of my matches are in Norway and Sweden. I also have a 1step match with someone in the Russian Federation.

    Apparently J1c's success in Northern Europe could be due to better heat production.

    Here's a table showing J1c's distribution



    Also I'm the only O in my family and the rest were all A. All Irish.

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    J1c specifically is very high in Northern Europe.
    According to
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J_mtDNA.shtml
    J1c2b
    specifically is found on the British isles. Island speciation?

    Here's a table showing J1c's distribution

    Thank you. Do you have a link to a larger image of it?
    Also I'm the only O in my family and the rest were all A. All Irish.
    I can see that with Ireland being one of the countries with highest percentages of blood type O. Positive or negative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Mine is B+ blood type.
    Same here, wife B-

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