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Thread: Local migrations of E-V13 subclades in the Balkans

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    Local migrations of E-V13 subclades in the Balkans

    Text of co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project.


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3t...d6MDJlaTQ/view


    Serbian genetic tree for E-V13, source Serbian genetic portal Poreklo


    https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/


    For now is clear that mutation CTS5856 is source of most E1b V-13 types exist in the Montenegrins and Serbs, and probably in Croatias etc..


    In this branch is Serbian tribes of Bjelopavlići, Kuči..etc


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjelopavli%C4%87i


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku%C4%8Di


    Interestingly, there is a subclade Z17107 in Croatia in the Serbian village, which shows link with Albania and no connection with Herzegovina from where allegedly Serbs come to Dalmatia.

    Obviously, a good part of today's Serbs by the male line is Albanian origin.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 26-09-17 at 16:30.

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    Very interesting


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    The Albanian Kuci Fis/clan has long been claimed by the Serbian state apparatus to be "Albanianized" slavs. It's an extremely interesting development if they
    are highly overrepresented in EV13 as this paper claims. It points to it being the exact opposite of what the Serbian state pushed in their academies.

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    This is a map where are Albanian subclades

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...es?iframe=ymap

    This is a map with Dinaric Alps subclades



    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...na/dna-results


    E-M35 Project - Family Tree DNA



    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ymap



    Confirmed Haplogroup: E-BY4457

    Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320 >Z17107>Z38456>BY4457>BY4455
    This is subclade from Western Dalmatia (Serbian village)

    E-BY4457
    Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320 >Z17107>Z38456>BY4457>16791741

    This is subclade from Albania.

    E-Z38456
    Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320 >Z17107>Z38456>BY4457

    This is subclade from Macedonia.

    These are same people in the male line, in Croatia the same mutation comes with Vlach groups that later become Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The Albanian Kuci Fis/clan has long been claimed by the Serbian state apparatus to be "Albanianized" slavs. It's an extremely interesting development if they
    are highly overrepresented in EV13 as this paper claims. It points to it being the exact opposite of what the Serbian state pushed in their academies.
    Serbian historians have claimed that quoted tribes are Serb origin and now we seeing that they have nothing to do with Serbs, they are local Albanians who later became Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Serbian historians have claimed that quoted tribes are Serb origin and now we seeing that they have nothing to do with Serbs, they are local Albanians who later became Serbs.
    Thanks for the interesting link. Do you know how to read cyrillic because I can't and because it is an image I'm not able to dump it in google translate. If you have the time and
    ability I would be very grateful for a latinized version of every cyrillic word on this image:


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    Unfortunately many Albanians choose to test at 23andMe, LivingDNA, etc, which are next to useless for Y-DNA research (instead of FamilyTreeDNA or YSEQ and join Albanian Bloodlines Project), otherwise our E-V13 subclades would be much more researched. Anyways, with limited samples, here is what we have so far (I see in the above tree, the Serbs have copied some of our Albanian samples, lol):

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Thanks for the interesting link. Do you know how to read cyrillic because I can't and because it is an image I'm not able to dump it in google translate. If you have the time and
    ability I would be very grateful for a latinized version of every cyrillic word on this image:




    CTS9320 Mirdite (Albanian surname?)
    Z16988 Bjelopavlići tribe
    Klimenti (Albanian)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmendi_(tribe)

    Z38456 Dibrri (Albanian surname?)
    Adilji (Albanian surname?)
    Lakić (Serbian from west dalmatia)

    Z16661 Kuči tribe
    S2792 Lisičić (Serbian surname)
    FGC11450 Batanjaku (Albanian surname?)
    L241 Gaši (Albanian surname?)
    Karić (Serbian surname)
    FGC33625 Beriša (Albanian surname?)
    Sopić (Serbian surname)

    PH1246 Vasojevići tribe
    Rajovići (Serbian surname)
    Bojačijev ??
    TBD Scotland
    Ireland

    Key subclade is CTS5856 for which co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project says that probably comes from triangle of Albania, Montenegro and Serbia.

    This subclade and those after it has nothing to do with arrival of the Slavs to Balkans, it is clear that subclade CTS5856 is exclusive Albanian mutation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    CTS9320 Mirdite (Albanian surname?)
    Z16988 Bjelopavlići tribe
    Klimenti (Albanian)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmendi_(tribe)

    Z38456 Dibrri (Albanian surname?)
    Adilji (Albanian surname?)
    Lakić (Serbian from west dalmatia)

    Z16661 Kuči tribe
    S2792 Lisičić (Serbian surname)
    FGC11450 Batanjaku (Albanian surname?)
    L241 Gaši (Albanian surname?)
    Karić (Serbian surname)
    FGC33625 Beriša (Albanian surname?)
    Sopić (Serbian surname)

    PH1246 Vasojevići tribe
    Rajovići (Serbian surname)
    Bojačijev ??
    TBD Scotland
    Ireland
    Wow you are a legend!!!!


    And yes every last name that you guessed as Albanian was correct:
    Berisha: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Berisha_(tribe)
    Gashi: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gashi_(tribe)
    Mirdite, Dibrri: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_tribes_of_Albania

    Only Adilji I'm slightly ambigious about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    FGC33625 Beriša (Albanian surname?)
    Sopić (Serbian surname)
    That's actually Sopi, an Albanian tribe ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Only Adilji I'm slightly ambigious about.
    What do you mean by "ambiguous about". He is Albanian (surname Adili), and member of our Albanian Bloodlines Project. As I stated earlier, the Serbs copied some of our samples (I guess to see how they compare), as can be seen on the tree I posted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    That's actually Sopi, an Albanian tribe ;)

    You're right Sopi without ić.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    What do you mean by "ambiguous about". He is Albanian, and member of our Albanian Bloodlines Project. As I stated earlier, the Serbs copied some of our samples, as can be seen on the tree I posted.
    I'm obviously ambigious about Adili being an Albanian surname as etymologically it is not Albanian but Arabic. So it could be any muslim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Wow you are a legend!!!!


    And yes every last name that you guessed as Albanian was correct:
    Berisha: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Berisha_(tribe)
    Gashi: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gashi_(tribe)
    Mirdite, Dibrri: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_tribes_of_Albania

    Only Adilji I'm slightly ambigious about.
    Serbian Адиљи latin Adilji?

    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I'm obviously ambigious about Adili being an Albanian surname as etymologically it is not Albanian but Arabic. So it could be any muslim.
    Well, if you followed our project closer, and not have to rely on others, you would know he is an Albanian ;)
    The name/surname is not totally strange among us either, just like other muslim names. Furthermore, he belongs to the same E-V13 subclade as a Catholic Albanian from Mirditë, Albania.
    Last edited by Trojet; 27-09-17 at 16:00.

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    Serbs from Croatia come exclusively with Vlach name,little with the Serbian name.

    There are interesting Turkish records (year 1526 and 1660) from Montenegro, southern Serbia and by the river Drina that mentione Croats and Serbs are not mentioned there.

    There is a record from 1697-1698

    Petar Tolstoy (Russian Count) is in his Travel Guide to Italy and to the island of Malta 1697-1698. wrote that above Boka (Bay of Kotor) inhabited by Croats. .
    (further from the Ercegnan road, living by Bregi(hills), overlooking the Horvates to Perast in the Albanian principality)
    Last edited by hrvat22; 26-09-17 at 20:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Unfortunately many Albanians choose to test at 23andMe, LivingDNA, etc, which are next to useless for Y-DNA research (instead of FamilyTreeDNA or YSEQ and join Albanian Bloodlines Project), otherwise our E-V13 subclades would be much more researched.
    The Albanian Bloodlines Project is an extremely important initiative and good on you and Unikkatil for doing it and pushing it.

    If you categorize it as unfortunate that Albanians are
    testing with 23andme, Ancestry,etc then I have to break the bad news that this will not be getting any better for you.

    For 50% of all Albanians, i.e. females, Ftdna's $170 Ydna 37 test is useless, unless they're willing to pay for their brother or father to do the test, which
    statistically is unlikely.

    For the other 50% of Albanians, i.e. the males, Ftdna's $170 Ydna is also useless as for a cheaper price they can get their Y haplogroup(not as deep clade), motherline, and autosmal.
    Plus health reports with 23andme. Again, for the general population, knowing that you're EV13 and not I2 is enough.

    The only strategies you can rely on to push Albanians from the general population to test with Ftdna are as follows:

    1. Advertise 23andme, LivingDna,etc as useless in articles in Albanian media etc.

    This scenario in the long run is futile as you do not have the resources to compete for exposure with companies like these, they will only get bigger and dominate the market more
    while providing even better services.

    2. Advertise testing with Ftdna i.e. deeper Y clades as a national duty/sacrifice/struggle for Albanian science.

    This will work with some but again negligibly with the general population.

    3. Rely on the general populations ignorance of other companies existence.

    This can work with some, but it is in bad faith and will again not enrichen your sample size by much.



    Overall, what i'm trying to say is, that unless you try to get subsidized by the Albanian or Kosovo state or some other NGO, fund, etc, the ftdna Albanian bloodlines project will not grow drastically any time soon or ever. If you are satisfied with the pace you have had then keep it up, but there needs to be more serious state supported research.

    I didn't even mention YSEQ because that is way too confusing for the average citizen

    Even me, as a DNA enthusiast, if I had 150 dollars, I would buy the 23andme test. Its ultimately much better value if i'm going to invest a months salary into a
    dna test. YDna is great and all but autosomal is extremely attractive, especially with the health reports etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Unfortunately many Albanians choose to test at 23andMe, LivingDNA, etc, which are next to useless for Y-DNA research (instead of FamilyTreeDNA or YSEQ and join Albanian Bloodlines Project), otherwise our E-V13 subclades would be much more researched. Anyways, with limited samples, here is what we have so far (I see in the above tree, the Serbs have copied some of our Albanian samples, lol):
    Your genetic tree in the Serbian forum.
    http://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1058.200

    And below your tree is written
    Where on this tree come Albanians E-V13?


    And no one answered him.

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    Johane Derite, our project keeps growing whether one chooses to participate in it or not. Examples are user hrvat22 pointing out his analysis, and the tree I posted.

    I could care less where one tests, as I have nothing personally to gain out of this, but contribute to Albanian Y-DNA research. I just simply pointed out what's the best way to grow Albanian Y-DNA research (in case one is interested), since it's evident our neighbors are ahead of us.

    And no, YSEQ (18 markers $58; 37 markers $85), which we recommend for our project is not confusing at all. In case it is, some of us are there to help ;)

    Anyone here who understands subclades, clusters, TMRCAs, distribution, etc, will tell you there is much more to a haplogroup than just E-V13, R1b, I2, etc, even for an Albanian.

    As far as Autosomal goes, I get complaints from Albanians all the time with their results. Like for example: "Well, I knew my DNA overwhelmingly comes from Southeastern Europe, or the Balkans". As for 23andMe "health reports", one will not get reliable results since it's obviously not based in Whole Genome Sequencing.
    Last edited by Trojet; 27-09-17 at 02:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    CTS9320 Mirdite (Albanian surname?)
    Z16988 Bjelopavlići tribe
    Klimenti (Albanian)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmendi_(tribe)

    Z38456 Dibrri (Albanian surname?)
    Adilji (Albanian surname?)
    Lakić (Serbian from west dalmatia)

    Z16661 Kuči tribe
    S2792 Lisičić (Serbian surname)
    FGC11450 Batanjaku (Albanian surname?)
    L241 Gaši (Albanian surname?)
    Karić (Serbian surname)
    FGC33625 Beriša (Albanian surname?)
    Sopić (Serbian surname)

    PH1246 Vasojevići tribe
    Rajovići (Serbian surname)
    Bojačijev ??
    TBD Scotland
    Ireland

    Key subclade is CTS5856 for which co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project says that probably comes from triangle of Albania, Montenegro and Serbia.

    This subclade and those after it has nothing to do with arrival of the Slavs to Balkans, it is clear that subclade CTS5856 is exclusive Albanian mutation.
    Hej which one is Z19851
    and also one of them in PH1246 it looks like KING?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Johane Derite, our project keeps growing whether one chooses to participate in it or not. Examples are user hrvat22 pointing out his analysis, and the tree I posted.

    I could care less where one tests, as I have nothing personally to gain out of this, but contribute to Albanian Y-DNA research. I just simply pointed out what's the best way to grow Albanian Y-DNA research (in case one is interested). Since it's evident our neighbors ahead of us.

    And no, YSEQ (18 markers $58; 37 markers $85), which we recommend for our project is not confusing at all. Some of us are there to help, in case it is ;)

    Anyone here who understands subclades and their distribution will tell you there is much more to a haplogroup than just E-V13, R1b, I2, etc, even for an Albanian.

    As far as Autosomal goes, I get complaints from Albanians all the time disappointed in their results. Like for example: Well, I knew my DNA overwhelmingly comes from Southeastern Europe, or the Balkans.
    How big the sample must be in order to be a representative sample......


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    How big the sample must be in order to be a representative sample......
    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    The more samples we have, the better. We currently have about 120 Albanians in the project. The plurality of samples come from Kosovë though. We'd like to have more samples from Albania proper, as most regions there have little to no representation in the project.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Hej which one is Z19851
    and also one of them in PH1246 it looks like KING?
    Z19851 Bjelice (Serbian surname)

    E-Z19851

    Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>BY4684>Z19851
    Name: Subotic
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ymap


    As far as I can see, there is no match for Albania or Albanians for now ... Maybe a Bulgarian or Greek branch.

    E-BY4684

    Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>BY4684
    BY4684
    This is earlier mutation from Turkey or around Istanbul. Possibly some Turkish influence on the Balkans.

    Will be seen in the future.

    PH1246 it looks like KING?
    For this I do not know

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Serbs from Croatia come exclusively with Vlach name,little with the Serbian name.
    There are interesting Turkish records (year 1526 and 1660) from Montenegro, southern Serbia and by the river Drina that mentione Croats and Serbs are not mentioned there.
    There is a record from 1697-1698
    Venetian archives for Montenegro only ever mentions basically 2 principalities , they are Zeta and Hum, ruled by only croats or serbs. The montengrians where non-coastal sheep herders living under both Zeta and Hum rule.
    here is a summary of ruling people for Montenegro
    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MONTENEGRO.htm
    as per the title of this thread..........the kosovo E-v13 I have always stated was due to the Dardania people of the area, the serbs have always linked themselves with the Thracian Triballi people..............the Triballi and the dardanians hated each other ................clearly E-V13 is not triballi marker
    The Dardanians can be part of an early albanian people and can also be of macedonian or Paeonian splinter tribe
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Venetian archives for Montenegro only ever mentions basically 2 principalities , they are Zeta and Hum, ruled by only croats or serbs. The montengrians where non-coastal sheep herders living under both Zeta and Hum rule.
    here is a summary of ruling people for Montenegro
    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MONTENEGRO.htm
    as per the title of this thread..........the kosovo E-v13 I have always stated was due to the Dardania people of the area, the serbs have always linked themselves with the Thracian Triballi people..............the Triballi and the dardanians hated each other ................clearly E-V13 is not triballi marker
    The Dardanians can be part of an early albanian people and can also be of macedonian or Paeonian splinter tribe
    I only know these sources..

    Nikifor Brienije (1062-1137)
    ..- Croats and Dukljans, again (1073), devastated the entire Illyricum ..
    .- When Croats and Dukljans Destroyed Illyricum, "Brijen's father assembled the army by.
    order of Emperor Mihail VII, (1071-1078) and leads against " Dukljans and Croats".

    Dukljans are Slavic and / or Slavicized population Duklja, the first Montenegrin state, the ancestors of modern Montenegrins and other indigenous peoples living in Montenegro
    https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukljansko_Kraljevstvo

    -Nikita Honijat (Greek Νικήτας ὁ Χωνιάτης, c. 1155-1217), also known as Nikita Akominat
    ..- speaking of Stefan Nemanja(Serbian ruler) and his activity between 1160 and 1173, says for him: "Without knowing the right thing, he began to conquer Croatia and take over the power of Kotor"(Montenegro, bay)


    Theodore Skoutariotes ..Teodor Skutariota on conquering Duklja by Stefan Nemanja:
    And he also heard that the Serbian ruler Nemanja Stjepan became involved in affairs of the neighboring countries, that he same race [Slavic] peoples attack with weapons, and that he wants Croats to be subject to him

    John Skylitzes, Latinized as Ioannes Scylitzes (1040-1101)The Bulgarian tribal leaders asked Mihailo, who then rules of those who called themselves Croats, who dwelt in Kotor(Montenegro) and Papratnica, and who had no small country under them, to help them work with them and to give them their son whom they will proclaim as emperor of Bulgaria "
    Mihailo, the first king in Duklja and Montenegrin history, the head of the Duklja state from the Vojislavljević dynasty, from 1046 to 1081.
    Andrija Dandolo, Venetian (1343-1354)
    Svetopulk, the king of Dalmatia ... on the Duvanjsko polje(Hercegovina) was crowned and divided the kingdom of its Dalmatia into four parts ... From the field, namely Duvanjsko(Hercegovina) to Istria, is called White Croatia, and from that field to Drač(Durrës Albania) Red Croatia; and the mountain part of the Drina River to Macedonia is called Raška, and from this river here, to Bosnia ... Modern, the whole coastline is called Dalmatia, and the mountain part called Croatia

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