Local migrations of E-V13 subclades in the Balkans

[blevins13]

Johane Derite, our project keeps growing whether one chooses to participate in it or not. Examples are user hrvat22 pointing out his analysis, and the tree I posted.

I could care less where one tests, as I have nothing personally to gain out of this, but contribute to Albanian Y-DNA research. I just simply pointed out what's the best way to grow Albanian Y-DNA research (in case one is interested). Since it's evident our neighbors ahead of us.

And no, YSEQ (18 markers $58; 37 markers $85), which we recommend for our project is not confusing at all. Some of us are there to help, in case it is

Anyone here who understands subclades and their distribution will tell you there is much more to a haplogroup than just E-V13, R1b, I2, etc, even for an Albanian.

As far as Autosomal goes, I get complaints from Albanians all the time disappointed in their results. Like for example: Well, I knew my DNA overwhelmingly comes from Southeastern Europe, or the Balkans.

How big the sample must be in order to be a representative sample......


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Trojet]

How big the sample must be in order to be a representative sample......
Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

The more samples we have, the better. We currently have about 120 Albanians in the project. The plurality of samples come from Kosovë though. We'd like to have more samples from Albania proper, as most regions there have little to no representation in the project.

 

[hrvat22]

Hej which one is Z19851
and also one of them in PH1246 it looks like KING?

Z19851 Bjelice (Serbian surname)

E-Z19851

Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>BY4684>Z19851
Name: Subotic

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ymap


As far as I can see, there is no match for Albania or Albanians for now ... Maybe a Bulgarian or Greek branch.

E-BY4684

Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>BY4684

BY4684

This is earlier mutation from Turkey or around Istanbul. Possibly some Turkish influence on the Balkans.

Will be seen in the future.

PH1246 it looks like KING?

For this I do not know

 

[Sile]

Serbs from Croatia come exclusively with Vlach name,little with the Serbian name.
There are interesting Turkish records (year 1526 and 1660) from Montenegro, southern Serbia and by the river Drina that mentione Croats and Serbs are not mentioned there.
There is a record from 1697-1698

Venetian archives for Montenegro only ever mentions basically 2 principalities , they are Zeta and Hum, ruled by only croats or serbs. The montengrians where non-coastal sheep herders living under both Zeta and Hum rule.
here is a summary of ruling people for Montenegro
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MONTENEGRO.htm
as per the title of this thread..........the kosovo E-v13 I have always stated was due to the Dardania people of the area, the serbs have always linked themselves with the Thracian Triballi people..............the Triballi and the dardanians hated each other ................clearly E-V13 is not triballi marker
The Dardanians can be part of an early albanian people and can also be of macedonian or Paeonian splinter tribe

 

[hrvat22]

Venetian archives for Montenegro only ever mentions basically 2 principalities , they are Zeta and Hum, ruled by only croats or serbs. The montengrians where non-coastal sheep herders living under both Zeta and Hum rule.
here is a summary of ruling people for Montenegro
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MONTENEGRO.htm
as per the title of this thread..........the kosovo E-v13 I have always stated was due to the Dardania people of the area, the serbs have always linked themselves with the Thracian Triballi people..............the Triballi and the dardanians hated each other ................clearly E-V13 is not triballi marker
The Dardanians can be part of an early albanian people and can also be of macedonian or Paeonian splinter tribe

I only know these sources..

Nikifor Brienije (1062-1137)
..- Croats and Dukljans, again (1073), devastated the entire Illyricum ..
.- When Croats and Dukljans Destroyed Illyricum, "Brijen's father assembled the army by.
order of Emperor Mihail VII, (1071-1078) and leads against " Dukljans and Croats".

Dukljans are Slavic and / or Slavicized population Duklja, the first Montenegrin state, the ancestors of modern Montenegrins and other indigenous peoples living in Montenegro

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukljansko_Kraljevstvo

-Nikita Honijat (Greek Νικήτας ὁ Χωνιάτης, c. 1155-1217), also known as Nikita Akominat
..- speaking of Stefan Nemanja(Serbian ruler) and his activity between 1160 and 1173, says for him: "Without knowing the right thing, he began to conquer Croatia and take over the power of Kotor"(Montenegro, bay)

Theodore Skoutariotes ..Teodor Skutariota on conquering Duklja by Stefan Nemanja:
And he also heard that the Serbian ruler Nemanja Stjepan became involved in affairs of the neighboring countries, that he same race [Slavic] peoples attack with weapons, and that he wants Croats to be subject to him

John Skylitzes, Latinized as Ioannes Scylitzes (1040-1101)The Bulgarian tribal leaders asked Mihailo, who then rules of those who called themselves Croats, who dwelt in Kotor(Montenegro) and Papratnica, and who had no small country under them, to help them work with them and to give them their son whom they will proclaim as emperor of Bulgaria "
Mihailo, the first king in Duklja and Montenegrin history, the head of the Duklja state from the Vojislavljević dynasty, from 1046 to 1081.

Andrija Dandolo, Venetian (1343-1354)
Svetopulk, the king of Dalmatia ... on the Duvanjsko polje(Hercegovina) was crowned and divided the kingdom of its Dalmatia into four parts ... From the field, namely Duvanjsko(Hercegovina) to Istria, is called White Croatia, and from that field to Drač(Durrës Albania) Red Croatia; and the mountain part of the Drina River to Macedonia is called Raška, and from this river here, to Bosnia ... Modern, the whole coastline is called Dalmatia, and the mountain part called Croatia

 

[hrvat22]

Information from Serbian portal about y haplogroup of Serbian politician.

BY611 branch of haplogroup R1b, belonging to Zukorlic, is represented by all the Balkan peoples, and is very characteristic of the Albanians.

Interestingly, Zukorlic is genetically very close to Hašim Tači(Prime Minister of Kosovo) because there is a result of tested Tači from village of Broćna near Drenica(Kosovo) - Krtinic revealed, which also clarified Zukorlic's haplogroup.

It is not true that this haplogroup is related to eight percent of Serbs and zero to Russians, but is related to six percent of Serbs and six percent Russians - concluded the founder of the "Serbian DNA Project".

Jovica Krtinić, portal editor "poreklo.rs" and one of the founders of "Serbian DNA Project",

http://www.alo.rs/seselj-je-srbin-a-zukorlic-je-blizak-taciju/122482

Muamer Zukorlić is Bosniak and live in south Serbia (politician)

This in fact means that 6% of today's Serbs with R1b on the male line is Albanian origin, confirmed by founder of the "Serbian DNA Project, and further states

As far as Ilira is concerned, it has not yet been established which haplogroup among them was dominant, but the best candidate for it is the haplogroup of E1b1b, which is far more represented than the R1b haplogroup on the territory of former Illyricum

 

[Garrick]

Obviously, a good part of today's Serbs by the male line is Albanian origin.

Your conclusions are mostly wrong because you do not take in account context.

One of explanation of context you can read in #206, thread "34363-E-V13-subclades-in-Greece":

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...n-Greece/page9?p=521263&viewfull=1#post521263

Scientists precisely determined an area in Bulgaria where Albanians (Shqiptarët) lived before they came to the present-day Albania in the second half of the first millenium.

Bulgaria was big power in 9-10th century, in the Balkans and wider. Among other territories, almost whole today's Albania was Bulgarian territory.

Local inhabitants are assimilated. Who assimilated older or younger subclades in areas where different people came it doesn't matter. E-V13 carriers (about you discuss) spoke Latin before assimilation, if newcomers did not come, they might be Italians today.

Albanians assimilated some Serbs and have male lines of Serbian origin, Serbs assimilated some Albanians and have male lines of Albanian origin (and there are contexts for both directions of assimilation and periods) but what is interesting is that Albanians and Serbs have remained quite different populations, and despite their centuries of life, relatively close to each other. This is largely due to different religions (Albanians mostly embraced Islam and Serbs complied with Orthodox Christianity).

Conclusion: Albanians are linked with Bulgarians (not significantly to the Serbs) and this is because their ancestors once lived in the area (which scientists precisely determined) in the territory of Bulgaria.

 

[Yetos]

I think we play a stupid game,
by naming and characterising populations with modern nationalities,

V-13 prexisted all IE in Balkans,

so any attempt to say V-13 is Greek or Serbian and especially Albanian as some claim in forum is Just stupidity,

cause V-13 did fall from the sky, in Dolmetian Alps,
neither spoke IE, and neither is Caucasian or Steppe

especially the last I have seen that V-13 is proto-Illyrian

Just for laughs.

Hrvat, stop provoking Garrick,your claim is ridiculous

 

[Leka]

YSEQ confusing? Actually YSEQ is one of the simplest and most user friendly site I have ever seen - combined with their affordable prices and superior customer service they are the most attractive company out there currently. Too bad not many people know about it or are willing to give them a chance. Their Alpha-Beta package (37 marker test) at $85 is a steal! Y-DNA37 at Family Tree DNA, which is basically the exact same test, is twice that, and not to forget takes twice as long to process.

 

[don_joe]

Can anyone tell me, what would knowing my E-V13 subclade bring me? I'm considering the V13 Panel at YSEQ for $88.00 but would I really learn something more about my origin? Where would be the benefit except knowing a subclade name? I'm curious but I'm not sure enough if it's worth it at the moment.

 

[Johane Derite]

Can anyone tell me, what would knowing my E-V13 subclade bring me? I'm considering the V13 Panel at YSEQ for $88.00 but would I really learn something more about my origin? Where would be the benefit except knowing a subclade name? I'm curious but I'm not sure enough if it's worth it at the moment.

You would know more closely who it is you share a grandfather with. Which tribes you are more closely related to in time. For example here is the tree from the Albanian Bloodlines Project:

 

[don_joe]

You would know more closely who it is you share a grandfather with. Which tribes you are more closely related to in time. For example here is the tree from the Albanian Bloodlines Project:

Thank you Johane. I've seen this tree, I just can not relate to it as a Croat. Some 10% of Croats have this Haplo too. I need some broader info over the whole region and it seems there is not much more available at the moment. That's why I doubt that spending $88 is worth for me. Albanian Bloodline Project is a useful initiative which I support but it's too local. Thanks.

 

[Johane Derite]

I've seen this tree, I just can not relate to it as a Croat. Some 10% of Croats have this Haplo too. I need some broader info over the whole region and it seems there is not much more available at the moment. That's why I doubt that spending $88 is worth for me. Albanian Bloodline Project is a useful initiative which I support but it's too local. Thanks.

Well if you do the test and your subclade is any of the ones in the tree above then it relates pretty directly to you or anyone, regardless if croat or from zimbabwe.
If you are Z16988 then you have the same great great ~grandfather as Kelmendi tribe for example.

There are also other local Ev13 projects such as the one on Poreklo and Serbian DNA project.

 

[don_joe]

Well if you do the test and your subclade is any of the ones in the tree above then it relates pretty directly to you or anyone, regardless if croat or from zimbabwe.
If you are Z16988 then you have the same great great ~grandfather as Kelmendi tribe for example.

There are also other local Ev13 projects such as the one on Poreklo and Serbian DNA project.

Thanks for the tip, I've checked out these recommended sites. The problem is that they are too ethnocentric and they don't offer a bigger picture over the region. If I speak for my family, OK, it's theoretically even possible that we've got something to do with the Kelemendis, but at least not in the last 500 years as far as my ancestors are mentioned in the Croatian church books. There was someone there before from whom we share ancestry and it's unclear at the moment who it was due to scarce data. So my logic is, if I test for subclade, it would tell me nothing yet. Even if it matches some Albanian or Serbian tribe, it goes a bit further back to someone before us in the ancestry line. Look how old the subclades are on your tree, 4600-1950 bc or ybp. It's far older than any clan, if you understand what I mean. Maybe it could link me to some contemporary group but that wouldn't answer my questions about origin. Do you know, are there any other papers about subclades without one-sided interpretations? Thanks.

 

[eastara]

On the Balkans Bulgarians have the most diverse clades of E-V13. For now we have found all major branches with the exception of L540. Bulgarians are very diverse under CTS9320, too, including many tested CTS9320*, i.e undiscovered branch.
Unfortunately not many have the means for deeper SNP testing. The picture is not getting clear as Bulgarians are lacking the STR clustering under V13, which Albanians and Serbs have, and this helps them identify the branch of even those without SNPs.

 

[axualonso]

Dear all, balkan e v13 history must change. Do not believe western historical lies please. Balkan e v13 is came to balkans from east europe before serbs. You were nomadic hunnic tribes and you were living in east hun empire somewhere in chuvashia. E was born in west asia. E V13 was born in east europe now we can say chuvashia. You were the western soldiers of east hun empire. After the collapse of hun empire you migrated to balkans.

 

[axualonso]

Albanians makedonians and greeks was belong to J, I and R haplos. After some time some of E V 13 asimilated to albanians, makedonians and greeks. After serbs came again an asimilation occured in some time. Please take my replies into consideration. In future, some real dna and history will be written about balkan e v13 and you will learn the truth i hope...

 

[Dibran]

Dear all, balkan e v13 history must change. Do not believe western historical lies please. Balkan e v13 is came to balkans from east europe before serbs. You were nomadic hunnic tribes and you were living in east hun empire somewhere in chuvashia. E was born in west asia. E V13 was born in east europe now we can say chuvashia. You were the western soldiers of east hun empire. After the collapse of hun empire you migrated to balkans.

Albanians makedonians and greeks was belong to J, I and R haplos. After some time some of E V 13 asimilated to albanians, makedonians and greeks. After serbs came again an asimilation occured in some time. Please take my replies into consideration. In future, some real dna and history will be written about balkan e v13 and you will learn the truth i hope...

What the hell are you talking about? Theres more than enough evidence against that whacky claim.

 

[blevins13]

In relation with local migration I have this article for our Greek friends.... http://www.kathimerini.gr/939714/ar...-alvanofwnes---ellhnas-opoios-ais8anetai-etsi


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Lenab]

E3b is the pre historic Red Sea mix in the Balkans seen the highest in Albanian Arvanites South Serbian Montenegrins