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Thread: Local migrations of E-V13 subclades in the Balkans

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    I really care about my ancestors, but at this time I can not find a connection between my family bloodline (E-Z17107*) and the Balkan. Neither serbian or albanian. I know, we have a common ancestor about in the time of Herodotus (800 BC) with the albanian Dibbri clan, and our croatian, bosnian, serbian and bulgarian brothers (and with my russian, ukrainian, swedish and irish brothers) But I don't know where to live. I think about 800 BC, the Z17107 father lived somewhere in the Danubian basin, or east of it, and they migrated from here. But I don't know what kind of people or tribe is belonged to.
    If you are positive for E-Z17107 then surely your male ancestors coming from Albania or south east Europe. E-Z17107 subclade is old around three thousand years(your male ancestor) and from that time it was probably some migration towards Ukraine and Hungaria or from Bulgaria but the source is probably around Albania because subclade CTS5856 (old around four thousand years and an ancestor of E-Z17107) originate in northwest Albania, behind E-Z17107 exist subclade Z38456 which have some Albanians so very likely a source is there.

  2. #52
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    I am now becoming very interested in knowing my subclade. Could someone please recommend me the next step? I've tested with Living DNA, unfortunately they have no details for E-V13. Now I am considering YSEQ E1b-V13 Panel for $88. Will this provide me sufficient information or would you suggest something else? Could you also tell me, what is the procedure with YSEQ? Do I have to send a swab sample again or can they use my Living DNA test results? Sorry for asking silly questions, I just can't find any info on YSEQ page and I don't have time to dig deeper, but my curiosity is strong anyway. I appreciate your help.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    I am now becoming very interested in knowing my subclade. Could someone please recommend me the next step? I've tested with Living DNA, unfortunately they have no details for E-V13. Now I am considering YSEQ E1b-V13 Panel for $88. Will this provide me sufficient information or would you suggest something else? Could you also tell me, what is the procedure with YSEQ? Do I have to send a swab sample again or can they use my Living DNA test results? Sorry for asking silly questions, I just can't find any info on YSEQ page and I don't have time to dig deeper, but my curiosity is strong anyway. I appreciate your help.

    I would recommend you to enter your STR results in Nevgen calculator first (nevgen.org). This calculator can predict your SNP quite accurate, just choose option "Longer haplotypes". Based on this prediction you will see, if it is meaningful to do E1b-V13 Panel. Regarding Yseq, you need to send them a new sample. They will send you a swab kit, if you order E1b-V13 Panel.

  4. #54
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    eastara!

    Thank you, you helped me.

    hrvat22!

    Thank you, but I think, the Z17107 ancestor lived in the Vucedol culture, among the proto-illyrians, and lived somewhere the Danubian Basin (today Hungary, Croatia and Serbia) Some of his sons moved to the south (Z38456) about 1200-1400 BC, but some of his sons stay and later merged into the celts and the pre-scythians (sigynnas). Maybe.

    don joe!

    So far I ordered from the ancestrybyDNA (USA), the Genographic Project, FtDNA and the YSEQ. YSEQ is the quickest and most accurate one. All of my 8 great-great garndfathers bloodline tested by YSEQ. I oredere an YSEQ alpha, and later the recommended panel. You will need to send a new sample to Berlin, but they look for your SNP-s as precisely as possible.

    An example: I sent my own sample 4 different institute:

    ancestrybyDNA told: I'm E1b1b
    Genographic Project told: I'm: E-L542
    FtDNA told: I'm: E-CTS9320
    YSEQ told: I'm E-Z17107+ but negative for all known subclades

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    eastara!

    Thank you, you helped me.

    hrvat22!

    Thank you, but I think, the Z17107 ancestor lived in the Vucedol culture, among the proto-illyrians, and lived somewhere the Danubian Basin (today Hungary, Croatia and Serbia) Some of his sons moved to the south (Z38456) about 1200-1400 BC, but some of his sons stay and later merged into the celts and the pre-scythians (sigynnas). Maybe.

    don joe!

    So far I ordered from the ancestrybyDNA (USA), the Genographic Project, FtDNA and the YSEQ. YSEQ is the quickest and most accurate one. All of my 8 great-great garndfathers bloodline tested by YSEQ. I oredere an YSEQ alpha, and later the recommended panel. You will need to send a new sample to Berlin, but they look for your SNP-s as precisely as possible.

    An example: I sent my own sample 4 different institute:

    ancestrybyDNA told: I'm E1b1b
    Genographic Project told: I'm: E-L542
    FtDNA told: I'm: E-CTS9320
    YSEQ told: I'm E-Z17107+ but negative for all known subclades

    Thank you kuzmosi for your detailed answer. Just to be sure, do you recommend going directly for YSEQ Panel? Could you also give me a few links where I can analyse my results afterwards or where I can prepare myself before? Much appreciated.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    Thank you kuzmosi for your detailed answer. Just to be sure, do you recommend going directly for YSEQ Panel? Could you also give me a few links where I can analyse my results afterwards or where I can prepare myself before? Much appreciated.
    If you know that you are V13, and would like to find the "terminal" subclade/SNP, I would go straight for the YSEQ E1b-V13 Panel. And yes, you would have to send a sample kit to their lab in Berlin, which is included when you buy any of their first tests: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.ph...oducts_id=2486

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    hrvat22!Thank you, but I think, the Z17107 ancestor lived in the Vucedol culture, among the proto-illyrians, and lived somewhere the Danubian Basin (today Hungary, Croatia and Serbia) Some of his sons moved to the south (Z38456) about 1200-1400 BC, but some of his sons stay and later merged into the celts and the pre-scythians (sigynnas). Maybe.
    First we have to go from beginning, for now we know that subclade CTS5856 or great ancestor of Z17107 has a source in northwestern Albania and northeastern Montenegro. Considering that descendant subclade Z38456 (son of Z17107) has a few Albanians in Albania it can be assumed that the father (Z17107) and the son (Z38456) live in the same area ie. three thousand years ago. For this reason, I believe migration moves from there. If you have evidence for your claim, attach it. However if you are right then this Albanians with subclades Z38456 come from Vucedol three thousand years ago to the hills of Albania.For now I have data of ancient R1b, I2a2 in Vucedol, if you have other data tell me. http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.hr...d-are-r1b.htmlhttps://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...dol-and-others

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    If you know that you are V13, and would like to find the "terminal" subclade/SNP, I would go straight for the YSEQ E1b-V13 Panel. And yes, you would have to send a sample kit to their lab in Berlin, which is included when you buy any of their first tests: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.ph...oducts_id=2486
    Great, thanks Trojet. Do you have any links with more details about E-V13 subclades to recommend? I would like to be better informed, to know what to expect or what the interpretations of the results could be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    First we have to go from beginning, for now we know that subclade CTS5856 or great ancestor of Z17107 has a source in northwestern Albania and northeastern Montenegro.
    How do we know that?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    How do we know that?
    We know this on the basis of this
    Text of co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project.
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3t...d6MDJlaTQ/view

    Maybe that's not true, but we only have this as a source. If someone has something else to refute this source I will respect that.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    We know this on the basis of this https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3t...d6MDJlaTQ/view

    Maybe that's not true, but we only have this as a source. If someone has something else to refute this source I will respect that.
    OK, this is the answer to my questions before, I've missed it somehow in the OP. Thanks. I'll certainly have a nice read this evening.

    I don't see your haplogroup, may I assume that it is the one this topic is about? Do you know your subclades? BTW, I'm from ZG too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    OK, this is the answer to my questions before, I've missed it somehow in the OP. Thanks. I'll certainly have a nice read this evening.I don't see your haplogroup, may I assume that it is the one this topic is about? Do you know your subclades? BTW, I'm from ZG too.
    I did not research my haplogroup, but I am interested in Croatian haplogroups. Regarding your haplogroup there are four options, 1. comes with Vlachs (Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Romania?) 2. assimilated Illyrians 3. comes with White Croats or some western Europeans 4. alien origin

  13. #63
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    The YSEQ EV-13 panel will not give you detailed, analyzed results. No more, and no less, just your exact position with the Y-tree, the SNP-s required for this is tested on your sample. (about 100 SNP will be tested, but STR-s does not specify. The STR-s define with the Yseq alpha, or the YSEQ Alpha-Beta) If you want more precise and analyzed results, you need to have a Whole Genom Sequence. I made my own sample at YSEQ, but it is not the cheapest (but the fastest) The FtDNA BigY test is cheaper. I ordered a BigY for another Küzmös, who is not my known relative since 200 years but it is in progress yet. So I don't know which test is better.

    If you want

  14. #64
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    Of course I don't know what happened about 4000 years ago, and I really new to the ancestral-genetics, but I'm interested the history of the Bronz Age in the Carpathian Basin. More than 30 years I read everything about it. But is is just a theory. The facts: The Bronz Age in the Danubian Basin was very complex. Many culture fluorished here. But in the XV.-XIV. century BC, the Tumulus culture from northeast attacked the local cultures, and much of them fled south, to the Balkan. Maybe the CTS9320 father was one of them. It happened 3500 years ago.
    Or another option: The Bronz Age cultures of the Carpathian Basin were collapsed and largely perished at the XIII. century BC. 2-3 Thousend years old settlements died permanently. The attackers were the Tumulus culture. Again. The still living population fled to the south. Again. At that time was the dorian invasion to Hellas, the illyrians moved to the Dinaric mountains, and the Thracians to Thracia. (The phrygians goes from the Balkan to the Anatolia. I think, because the Thracians and/or illyrians invaded their homeland.) This was the big uproar in the eastern-mediterraneum. The Hettita Empire collapsed, and aliens invaded to Egypt. Very interesting, the CTS9320 branch at this time it was divided to 6 main known subclades (Y20805, Z17107, Z25461, Z16988, Z17264, and the * subclades)

    But it is just a theory.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    The YSEQ EV-13 panel will not give you detailed, analyzed results. No more, and no less, just your exact position with the Y-tree, the SNP-s required for this is tested on your sample. (about 100 SNP will be tested, but STR-s does not specify. The STR-s define with the Yseq alpha, or the YSEQ Alpha-Beta) If you want more precise and analyzed results, you need to have a Whole Genom Sequence. I made my own sample at YSEQ, but it is not the cheapest (but the fastest) The FtDNA BigY test is cheaper. I ordered a BigY for another Küzmös, who is not my known relative since 200 years but it is in progress yet. So I don't know which test is better.

    If you want
    Thanks again. I'm now a bit confused, sorry for asking again. Between YSEQ E-V13 Panel ($88) and the YSEQ-Alpha-Beta ($85) what would you choose in my place to gather more detailed subclade info? I somehow can't find any explanations online. I understand some basics of SNP and STR, but what does it mean in terms of identifying the subclade branch and finding my closer relatives (or how this topic nicely puts it - the migrations in the Balkans)? Does one of those go further than the other one? I'm ready to spend some reasonable amount of money and I would like to get enough details out of it. I appreciate you kindness.

  16. #66
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    Do you know your main haplogroup is EV-13? Are you sure it?

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    Do you know your main haplogroup is EV-13? Are you sure it?
    Yes I am. That was the result from Living DNA. That's why I also have it under my user name.

  18. #68
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    So, I think, at first order the EV-13 panel. From this, you will know your exact position on the YTREE. If it will be ready, you can investigate further.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    So, I think, at first order the EV-13 panel. From this, you will know your exact position on the YTREE. If it will be ready, you can investigate further.
    Thank you!

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    You can find detailed data about commercially tested Albanians and Serbs here..
    Apologies for being off-topic but can you tell me about the presence of J-M241 in Bulgaria?

  21. #71
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    For example no Serbs and Albanians are found with the widely distributed S7461, while it is common among Bulgarians and Pomaks. We have Bulgarians also under Y16729 and most probably under Z16663(with 426=10), which is also not found elsewhere on the Balkans(having in mind that Pontic Greeks are just pure Anatolian and not Balkan people).
    It seems the most numerous subbranches among Bulgarians are under Z5016/CTS9320 and Z5018/S2979, but as I mentioned other are also common.
    However the deep SNP testing among Balkan V13 is not very popular yet and I hope more branches will be identified with time.
    I believe E-S7461 will be found in Albanians sooner or later. One thing to keep in mind is that currently over 80% of our samples come from North Albania and Kosove. E-V13 is quite common in Central and Southern Albania as well, where we have very little testing. So it remains to be seen what's found there.

    But I generally agree that E-V13 is pretty diverse all around Balkans including Bulgaria. TMRCA of CTS5856, which makes up over 95% of Balkan V13 is estimated at only ~4000 years. So really interesting how widely distributed this haplogroup has become ever since. IMO, Iron Age Balkan populations (Illyrians, Thracians, Ancient Greeks) all carried it.

  22. #72
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    Regarding V13 I don't agree that most branches among Bulgarians are common with the Albanians, let alone we got them from there. As a project administrator I can see that most Bulgarians don't have any matches above 25 markers and even very rarely match each other on 37 and more markers. For now I can see something in common with the Albanians under L241 only.
    Speaking of J2b2, yes, most Bulgarian samples seem to have a Macedonian or other South Western Balkan connection, but again we have too few deeper tested to make a definite judgement. It seems the Albanians are more on the same branches with Italians, while Bulgarians with North Europeans. Practically all Bulgarians who passed the Big Y test are on YFULL, so you can see where we stand there, as the J2 Pack does not get very deep.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Regarding V13 I don't agree that most branches among Bulgarians are common with the Albanians, let alone we got them from there. As a project administrator I can see that most Bulgarians don't have any matches above 25 markers and even very rarely match each other on 37 and more markers. For now I can see something in common with the Albanians under L241 only.
    Speaking of J2b2, yes, most Bulgarian samples seem to have a Macedonian or other South Western Balkan connection, but again we have too few deeper tested to make a definite judgement. It seems the Albanians are more on the same branches with Italians, while Bulgarians with North Europeans. Practically all Bulgarians who passed the Big Y test are on YFULL, so you can see where we stand there, as the J2 Pack does not get very deep.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
    Then on that basis make a concrete conclusion, probably an older migration moving from today's Albania to Bulgaria. It is important for me to know which younger branches and subclades of E1b are originally there(Bulgaria) because then we can see whether Vlachs coming and from there to Croatia.

  24. #74
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    V13 or even CTS5856 did not originate in Albania nor it came originally to the rest of the Balkans from there. It only SURVIVED better in the mountain areas of the South Western Balkan during the early Middle ages. Most lowlands along the Danube were almost completely deserted by the old population, and later repopulated either by new migrants from the North and NorthEast or with highlanders who came down later. In the case with the Albanians and Vlach Aromuns it was only in the last few centuries. Some of them settled in the NorthWestern Balkans and it is possible some V13 branches there are brought by them recently. However Bulgarians had some other mountains to hide in like the Balkan and Rhodopes, where other branches survived.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    V13 or even CTS5856 did not originate in Albania nor it came originally to the rest of the Balkans from there. It only SURVIVED better in the mountain areas of the South Western Balkan during the early Middle ages. Most lowlands along the Danube were almost completely deserted by the old population, and later repopulated either by new migrants from the North and NorthEast or with highlanders who came down later.
    I would agree with that. Mountains were a refuge not a source.

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