Local migrations of E-V13 subclades in the Balkans

[hrvat22]

Shetop

Actually it was a small mistake which came from the original source. It is not BY3380 but BY3880​.

:ashamed2:

 

[Leka]

Sorry if this is obvious to you, but why would you say that, based on what evidence? And why that subclade specifically? What about other V-13 subclades?



Are you saying that because this person is close to a person in Drenica they are of Albanian origin? What if the person from Drenica came from the Serbian person is? How can you exclude this possibility?

Handful of Serbs under this branch and almost all with origin from Montenegro. In other hand, this specific branch is a major line among the clans of north Albania.

And no, I am not a Serb or have Serbian origin.

 

[Dibran]

V13 or even CTS5856 did not originate in Albania nor it came originally to the rest of the Balkans from there. It only SURVIVED better in the mountain areas of the South Western Balkan during the early Middle ages. Most lowlands along the Danube were almost completely deserted by the old population, and later repopulated either by new migrants from the North and NorthEast or with highlanders who came down later. In the case with the Albanians and Vlach Aromuns it was only in the last few centuries. Some of them settled in the NorthWestern Balkans and it is possible some V13 branches there are brought by them recently. However Bulgarians had some other mountains to hide in like the Balkan and Rhodopes, where other branches survived.

You're full of it. Do you know how long a century is? it is 100 years. So you mean to tell me Albanian highlanders only populated most of Albanian lands only 300 years ago? Thats worse than the retarded Caucasus theory. Albanians spread out from the Alps in the earlier middle ages, as early as 1000-1100 becoming a majority in the low lands between then and 1400.

Yea, we are supposed to believe your bonkers claim that Albanians only inhabited those lands 300 years ago. Give me a break.

 

[LABERIA]

You're full of it. Do you know how long a century is? it is 100 years. So you mean to tell me Albanian highlanders only populated most of Albanian lands only 300 years ago? Thats worse than the retarded Caucasus theory. Albanians spread out from the Alps in the earlier middle ages, as early as 1000-1100 becoming a majority in the low lands between then and 1400.

Yea, we are supposed to believe your bonkers claim that Albanians only inhabited those lands 300 years ago. Give me a break.

I think he is wrong but maybe we will discuss with him later.
What i was interested to know is this your theory of Albanians spreading from the Alps as early as 1000-1100 becoming a majority in the low lands between then and 1400.
I asked you to elaborate it in another thread but maybe you forgot to do it. I hope you will find some time.

 

[Kelmendasi]

V13 or even CTS5856 did not originate in Albania nor it came originally to the rest of the Balkans from there. It only SURVIVED better in the mountain areas of the South Western Balkan during the early Middle ages. Most lowlands along the Danube were almost completely deserted by the old population, and later repopulated either by new migrants from the North and NorthEast or with highlanders who came down later. In the case with the Albanians and Vlach Aromuns it was only in the last few centuries. Some of them settled in the NorthWestern Balkans and it is possible some V13 branches there are brought by them recently. However Bulgarians had some other mountains to hide in like the Balkan and Rhodopes, where other branches survived.

Have you got any actual genetic evidence to back this up or are you going to carry on talking without evidence? The origin of E-V13 from the zone between Montenegro, Serbia and Albania is backed up by the fact that E-V13 reaches it's highest diversity there.

 

[Dibran]

I think he is wrong but maybe we will discuss with him later.
What i was interested to know is this your theory of Albanians spreading from the Alps as early as 1000-1100 becoming a majority in the low lands between then and 1400.
I asked you to elaborate it in another thread but maybe you forgot to do it. I hope you will find some time.

It is obvious in DNA results. And even in our language. Most of our lineage a resultant of founder effects and bottleneck. spread from a relatively small population 1500 years ago or so. Albanian language also lacks its own maritime vocabulary, and has more latin influence than Greek, which places it roughly north of the Jiricek line.

Proto-Albanians(not to be confused with modern Albanians) are probably largely descended from an Illyrian tribe around Bosnia and Herzegovina that spread with the clans upon their southern migration. Illyrians in Albania were mostly put to the sword by the Romans for their aid of Macedonia, and rebellion against Rome.

The Romans state most of the land was emptied and northern clans fled to the Dinaric Alps. Proto-Albanians most likely come from this clan that migrated later back to the South. It would explain the North West European admixture found in many isolated north-west Albanian Ghegs. Having a more northern and western periphary.

Albanian Ghegs most likely come from this tribe. Even our own oral history says all the major Gheg clans were originally in Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is what leads to Serbian lunacy when they claim Ghegs are Serbs because they migrated from Bosnia.

If Albanians were always in the south along the coastal regions, we should have our own maritime vocabulary, and more loan words due to hellenization of being south of the Jircek line. Also most Ancestral J2b and V13 I thin were found between Croatia and Montenegro. Ghegs most probably descend from Northern Illyrians, from north of the Jiricek line.

Otherwise, what happened to all our Greek loan words? For example, if Albanians were all wiped out but only the "North-East" Albanian dialect and group survived, and then had a expansion and demographic boom, chances are the words commonly used by southern tribes would have been lost, as the northern tribe occupied a mountain chain rather than the lowlands and coastal region.

The most likely probability is Our language is the remnant of one surviving northern Illyrian dialect with a combination of other elements forming the modern Albanian ethnos.

If anyone thinks any one people is a direct continuation of one solitary ethnic group, they are lying to themselves. All modern cultures and peoples arose as a combination of competing cultural elements, with a usually central tribal elite being the backbone of that cultural formation. In the case of modern Albanians that is likely a northern Illyrian dialect. However, it is combined with influence of other converging languages and cultures, and so the resulting mix of that becomes that modern Albanian, which is very different from Proto-Albanian(itself probably vastly different from Illyrian).

Its not a linear progression of development.

 

[Shetop]

The origin of E-V13 from the zone between Montenegro, Serbia and Albania is backed up by the fact that E-V13 reaches it's highest diversity there.

Can you illustrate that highest diversity with some data?

 

[LABERIA]

It is obvious in DNA results. And even in our language. Most of our lineage a resultant of founder effects and bottleneck. spread from a relatively small population 1500 years ago or so. Albanian language also lacks its own maritime vocabulary, and has more latin influence than Greek, which places it roughly north of the Jiricek line.
Proto-Albanians(not to be confused with modern Albanians) are probably largely descended from an Illyrian tribe around Bosnia and Herzegovina that spread with the clans upon their southern migration. Illyrians in Albania were mostly put to the sword by the Romans for their aid of Macedonia, and rebellion against Rome.
The Romans state most of the land was emptied and northern clans fled to the Dinaric Alps. Proto-Albanians most likely come from this clan that migrated later back to the South. It would explain the North West European admixture found in many isolated north-west Albanian Ghegs. Having a more northern and western periphary.
Albanian Ghegs most likely come from this tribe. Even our own oral history says all the major Gheg clans were originally in Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is what leads to Serbian lunacy when they claim Ghegs are Serbs because they migrated from Bosnia.
If Albanians were always in the south along the coastal regions, we should have our own maritime vocabulary, and more loan words due to hellenization of being south of the Jircek line. Also most Ancestral J2b and V13 I thin were found between Croatia and Montenegro. Ghegs most probably descend from Northern Illyrians, from north of the Jiricek line.
Otherwise, what happened to all our Greek loan words? For example, if Albanians were all wiped out but only the "North-East" Albanian dialect and group survived, and then had a expansion and demographic boom, chances are the words commonly used by southern tribes would have been lost, as the northern tribe occupied a mountain chain rather than the lowlands and coastal region.
The most likely probability is Our language is the remnant of one surviving northern Illyrian dialect with a combination of other elements forming the modern Albanian ethnos.
If anyone thinks any one people is a direct continuation of one solitary ethnic group, they are lying to themselves. All modern cultures and peoples arose as a combination of competing cultural elements, with a usually central tribal elite being the backbone of that cultural formation. In the case of modern Albanians that is likely a northern Illyrian dialect. However, it is combined with influence of other converging languages and cultures, and so the resulting mix of that becomes that modern Albanian, which is very different from Proto-Albanian(itself probably vastly different from Illyrian).
Its not a linear progression of development.

You are talking about many things here. Many of your questions have been explained by scholars, so let's save some time. I was not interested about Illyrian, the founder effects and bottleneck 1.500 years ago, etc. I asked you about this:

What i was interested to know is this your theory of Albanians spreading from the Alps as early as 1000-1100 becoming a majority in the low lands between then and 1400.

This period of time has nothing to do with Illyrians.
I have read many times that you talk about this migration of Albanians from North to South. I am asking exactly to elaborate this theory. And please, some citation from serious scholars are necessary to support this your theory. Oral tradition are stories not history.
BTW, do you know who is the first and undisputed case when a Albanian is mentioned in history?

 

[eastara]

You're full of it. Do you know how long a century is? it is 100 years. So you mean to tell me Albanian highlanders only populated most of Albanian lands only 300 years ago? Thats worse than the retarded Caucasus theory. Albanians spread out from the Alps in the earlier middle ages, as early as 1000-1100 becoming a majority in the low lands between then and 1400.

Yea, we are supposed to believe your bonkers claim that Albanians only inhabited those lands 300 years ago. Give me a break.

Yes, Albanians spread around the Balkans(especially the lowlands of Serbia and Croatia and Eastern Bulgaria) from their initial mountain homeland only a few hundred years ago. They were even mentioned as a separate ethnicity only around 11th c. They could not have spread the V13 around the whole peninsular as some seem to imply.
When V13 first came to the Balkans is still unclear. However papers on old Thracian remains are coming soon and we will see.

 

[Trojet]

When V13 first came to the Balkans is still unclear. However papers on old Thracian remains are coming soon and we will see.

Do you happen to have more info on these papers of Thracian remains, like how soon are they supposed to come out, and who is the research being carried by?

 

[DuPidh]

Yes, Albanians spread around the Balkans(especially the lowlands of Serbia and Croatia and Eastern Bulgaria) from their initial mountain homeland only a few hundred years ago. They were even mentioned as a separate ethnicity only around 11th c. They could not have spread the V13 around the whole peninsular as some seem to imply.
When V13 first came to the Balkans is still unclear. However papers on old Thracian remains are coming soon and we will see.

Should be an acceptable IQ level of people to post here.

 

[Jovialis]

should be an acceptable iq level of people to post here.

You are now banned due to accumulation of infraction points, and this just put you over.

Enough with the insults!

This goes for everyone.

 

[Dibran]

Yes, Albanians spread around the Balkans(especially the lowlands of Serbia and Croatia and Eastern Bulgaria) from their initial mountain homeland only a few hundred years ago. They were even mentioned as a separate ethnicity only around 11th c. They could not have spread the V13 around the whole peninsular as some seem to imply.
When V13 first came to the Balkans is still unclear. However papers on old Thracian remains are coming soon and we will see.

Your claim wasn't about V13. Your claim was that Albanians only populated most lands occupied by them in the last 300 years. That is literally vehement ignorance, and I highly doubt its unintentional. God forbid you acknowledge Albanian nativity in the Balkans. But, you expect us to really believe Albanians only occupied their current locations from the 1700s to present?

You're not very bright I am afraid. Albanians are already mentioned in the Southern Balkans practically 700 years earlier than that, but, whatever makes you feel better. Doesn't change the fact you're wrong.

 

[Nik]

It is obvious in DNA results. And even in our language. Most of our lineage a resultant of founder effects and bottleneck. spread from a relatively small population 1500 years ago or so. Albanian language also lacks its own maritime vocabulary, and has more latin influence than Greek, which places it roughly north of the Jiricek line.

Proto-Albanians(not to be confused with modern Albanians) are probably largely descended from an Illyrian tribe around Bosnia and Herzegovina that spread with the clans upon their southern migration. Illyrians in Albania were mostly put to the sword by the Romans for their aid of Macedonia, and rebellion against Rome.

The Romans state most of the land was emptied and northern clans fled to the Dinaric Alps. Proto-Albanians most likely come from this clan that migrated later back to the South. It would explain the North West European admixture found in many isolated north-west Albanian Ghegs. Having a more northern and western periphary.

Albanian Ghegs most likely come from this tribe. Even our own oral history says all the major Gheg clans were originally in Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is what leads to Serbian lunacy when they claim Ghegs are Serbs because they migrated from Bosnia.

If Albanians were always in the south along the coastal regions, we should have our own maritime vocabulary, and more loan words due to hellenization of being south of the Jircek line. Also most Ancestral J2b and V13 I thin were found between Croatia and Montenegro. Ghegs most probably descend from Northern Illyrians, from north of the Jiricek line.

Otherwise, what happened to all our Greek loan words? For example, if Albanians were all wiped out but only the "North-East" Albanian dialect and group survived, and then had a expansion and demographic boom, chances are the words commonly used by southern tribes would have been lost, as the northern tribe occupied a mountain chain rather than the lowlands and coastal region.

The most likely probability is Our language is the remnant of one surviving northern Illyrian dialect with a combination of other elements forming the modern Albanian ethnos.

If anyone thinks any one people is a direct continuation of one solitary ethnic group, they are lying to themselves. All modern cultures and peoples arose as a combination of competing cultural elements, with a usually central tribal elite being the backbone of that cultural formation. In the case of modern Albanians that is likely a northern Illyrian dialect. However, it is combined with influence of other converging languages and cultures, and so the resulting mix of that becomes that modern Albanian, which is very different from Proto-Albanian(itself probably vastly different from Illyrian).

Its not a linear progression of development.

You seem to settle very quickly for whatever you read and I believe your opinions are prone to drastically change in the future once we know more.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you choose to take simplistic explanations for granted.

It's true that Albanians were pushed South, but they definitely didn't bring E-V13 from the Alps. But perhaps you meant the Dinaric Alps and even in that case they were already well established in South Albania, as well as being too numerous to have come from ex-Yugoslavia alone. Evidence points to them being very numerous in Epirus already, and Epirus in the wider sense including their settlements in Acarnania and Aetolia.

The Albanian from Albania and coastal Montenegro do not originate from Bosnia or further North, only the Malesia Madhe, Malesia Vogel, and Dukagjin speaks the "Bosnian/Herzegovinian" type, while the rest of the Ghegs speak the mostly local version from where Tosk and Arvanitika derived too, meaning they were all formed there.

About the lack of maritime vocabulary and loanwords, that's like the weakest/useless points anyone can bring. First of all, it's already astonishing how Albanian survived and you ignore the fact that the word for sea, boat, and many others are not Latin. As for the supposedly Latin ones, how do you know Latin and Illyrian didn't share thousands of almost identical words? When you have so many similar tribal names between both sides of the Adriatic then you ought to believe the connection between these peoples was stronger than you thought.

The Albanian words for dog and friend seem like obvious Latin loanwords but we just happen to know they aren't and they're actually Illyrian too. That could be the case for hundreds of others that due to the striking similarity and the Romanization the Latin version prevailed since there wasn't much of a replacement rather than a minor modification of 1 letter or 2 like 's' becoming 'sh' or 'a' becoming 'e', etc.

As for the Greek loanwords, that's even worse as there are already enough Greek and Doric shared words while many could have simply been replaced by Latin ones due to the shifting of power from the Greek trading routes and cultural diffusion to Roman domination, not to mention that the Greeks nearby couldn't keep their own language much anyway (hint: Vlachs).

Genetically speaking, Albanian suffered from war and migration a lot, phenomena that didn't affect much the mountains, leading to an already created refugium of earlier concentrated E-V13, J2b, and R1b to spread around again, so whatever the Roman and Byzantine Empire did to the lowlands and urban centers in terms of population mixing and resettlement, they definitely left mostly as Arvanites and Arbereshe, or remained as Vlachs, Greeks, Slavs, and Albanians.

Nevertheless, the high amount of E-V13 in Peloponnese always intrigued me especially after a Medieval or Ottoman defter stated that in the Northern half of Peloponnese out of 195 villages, 150 were Albanian speaking. I believe there was a lot of E-V13 contribution from Arvanites but only testing more markers in Albanians will show if there's a recent connection between the 2.

 

[LABERIA]

You seem to settle very quickly for whatever you read and I believe your opinions are prone to drastically change in the future once we know more.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you choose to take simplistic explanations for granted.

It's true that Albanians were pushed South, but they definitely didn't bring E-V13 from the Alps. But perhaps you meant the Dinaric Alps and even in that case they were already well established in South Albania, as well as being too numerous to have come from ex-Yugoslavia alone. Evidence points to them being very numerous in Epirus already, and Epirus in the wider sense including their settlements in Acarnania and Aetolia.

The Albanian from Albania and coastal Montenegro do not originate from Bosnia or further North, only the Malesia Madhe, Malesia Vogel, and Dukagjin speaks the "Bosnian/Herzegovinian" type, while the rest of the Ghegs speak the mostly local version from where Tosk and Arvanitika derived too, meaning they were all formed there.

About the lack of maritime vocabulary and loanwords, that's like the weakest/useless points anyone can bring. First of all, it's already astonishing how Albanian survived and you ignore the fact that the word for sea, boat, and many others are not Latin. As for the supposedly Latin ones, how do you know Latin and Illyrian didn't share thousands of almost identical words? When you have so many similar tribal names between both sides of the Adriatic then you ought to believe the connection between these peoples was stronger than you thought.

The Albanian words for dog and friend seem like obvious Latin loanwords but we just happen to know they aren't and they're actually Illyrian too. That could be the case for hundreds of others that due to the striking similarity and the Romanization the Latin version prevailed since there wasn't much of a replacement rather than a minor modification of 1 letter or 2 like 's' becoming 'sh' or 'a' becoming 'e', etc.

As for the Greek loanwords, that's even worse as there are already enough Greek and Doric shared words while many could have simply been replaced by Latin ones due to the shifting of power from the Greek trading routes and cultural diffusion to Roman domination, not to mention that the Greeks nearby couldn't keep their own language much anyway (hint: Vlachs).

Genetically speaking, Albanian suffered from war and migration a lot, phenomena that didn't affect much the mountains, leading to an already created refugium of earlier concentrated E-V13, J2b, and R1b to spread around again, so whatever the Roman and Byzantine Empire did to the lowlands and urban centers in terms of population mixing and resettlement, they definitely left mostly as Arvanites and Arbereshe, or remained as Vlachs, Greeks, Slavs, and Albanians.

Nevertheless, the high amount of E-V13 in Peloponnese always intrigued me especially after a Medieval or Ottoman defter stated that in the Northern half of Peloponnese out of 195 villages, 150 were Albanian speaking. I believe there was a lot of E-V13 contribution from Arvanites but only testing more markers in Albanians will show if there's a recent connection between the 2.

I am interested about the part underlined. Can you elaborate it, please?

 

[Jovialis]

This thread is now closed.