Local migrations of E-V13 subclades in the Balkans

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hrvat22

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Text of co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3toPDBv-MLKc04zdEd6MDJlaTQ/view


Serbian genetic tree for E-V13, source Serbian genetic portal Poreklo


https://postimg.org/image/4qxnhdqsb/


For now is clear that mutation CTS5856 is source of most E1b V-13 types exist in the Montenegrins and Serbs, and probably in Croatias etc..


In this branch is Serbian tribes of Bjelopavlići, Kuči..etc


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjelopavlići


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuči


Interestingly, there is a subclade Z17107 in Croatia in the Serbian village, which shows link with Albania and no connection with Herzegovina from where allegedly Serbs come to Dalmatia.

Obviously, a good part of today's Serbs by the male line is Albanian origin.
 
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The Albanian Kuci Fis/clan has long been claimed by the Serbian state apparatus to be "Albanianized" slavs. It's an extremely interesting development if they
are highly overrepresented in EV13 as this paper claims. It points to it being the exact opposite of what the Serbian state pushed in their academies.
 
This is a map where are Albanian subclades

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AlbanianBloodlines?iframe=ymap

This is a map with Dinaric Alps subclades



https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/dinaric-alps-dna/dna-results


E-M35 Project - Family Tree DNA


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ymap



1x1.gif
Confirmed Haplogroup: E-BY4457

Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456>BY4457>BY4455
This is subclade from Western Dalmatia (Serbian village)

E-BY4457
Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456>BY4457>16791741

This is subclade from Albania.

E-Z38456
Subgroup: E-V68>M78>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS5856>Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456>BY4457

This is subclade from Macedonia.
1x1.gif


These are same people in the male line, in Croatia the same mutation comes with Vlach groups that later become Serbs.
 
Johane Derite said:
The Albanian Kuci Fis/clan has long been claimed by the Serbian state apparatus to be "Albanianized" slavs. It's an extremely interesting development if they
are highly overrepresented in EV13 as this paper claims. It points to it being the exact opposite of what the Serbian state pushed in their academies.
Click to expand...

Serbian historians have claimed that quoted tribes are Serb origin and now we seeing that they have nothing to do with Serbs, they are local Albanians who later became Serbs.
 
hrvat22 said:
Serbian historians have claimed that quoted tribes are Serb origin and now we seeing that they have nothing to do with Serbs, they are local Albanians who later became Serbs.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the interesting link. Do you know how to read cyrillic because I can't and because it is an image I'm not able to dump it in google translate. If you have the time and
ability I would be very grateful for a latinized version of every cyrillic word on this image:

Picture1.png
 
Unfortunately many Albanians choose to test at 23andMe, LivingDNA, etc, which are next to useless for Y-DNA research (instead of FamilyTreeDNA or YSEQ and join Albanian Bloodlines Project), otherwise our E-V13 subclades would be much more researched. Anyways, with limited samples, here is what we have so far (I see in the above tree, the Serbs have copied some of our Albanian samples, lol):
V13Final-1.jpg
 
Johane Derite said:
Thanks for the interesting link. Do you know how to read cyrillic because I can't and because it is an image I'm not able to dump it in google translate. If you have the time and
ability I would be very grateful for a latinized version of every cyrillic word on this image:




Picture1.png
Click to expand...

CTS9320 Mirdite (Albanian surname?)
Z16988 Bjelopavlići tribe
Klimenti (Albanian)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmendi_(tribe)

Z38456 Dibrri (Albanian surname?)
Adilji (Albanian surname?)
Lakić (Serbian from west dalmatia)

Z16661 Kuči tribe
S2792 Lisičić (Serbian surname)
FGC11450 Batanjaku (Albanian surname?)
L241 Gaši (Albanian surname?)
Karić (Serbian surname)
FGC33625 Beriša (Albanian surname?)
Sopić (Serbian surname)

PH1246 Vasojevići tribe
Rajovići (Serbian surname)
Bojačijev ??
TBD Scotland
Ireland

Key subclade is CTS5856 for which co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project says that probably comes from triangle of Albania, Montenegro and Serbia.

This subclade and those after it has nothing to do with arrival of the Slavs to Balkans, it is clear that subclade CTS5856 is exclusive Albanian mutation.
 
hrvat22 said:
CTS9320 Mirdite (Albanian surname?)
Z16988 Bjelopavlići tribe
Klimenti (Albanian)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmendi_(tribe)

Z38456 Dibrri (Albanian surname?)
Adilji (Albanian surname?)
Lakić (Serbian from west dalmatia)

Z16661 Kuči tribe
S2792 Lisičić (Serbian surname)
FGC11450 Batanjaku (Albanian surname?)
L241 Gaši (Albanian surname?)
Karić (Serbian surname)
FGC33625 Beriša (Albanian surname?)
Sopić (Serbian surname)

PH1246 Vasojevići tribe
Rajovići (Serbian surname)
Bojačijev ??
TBD Scotland
Ireland
Click to expand...

Wow you are a legend!!!!


And yes every last name that you guessed as Albanian was correct:
Berisha: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Berisha_(tribe)
Gashi: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gashi_(tribe)
Mirdite, Dibrri: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_tribes_of_Albania

Only Adilji I'm slightly ambigious about.
 
Johane Derite said:
Only Adilji I'm slightly ambigious about.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by "ambiguous about". He is Albanian (surname Adili), and member of our Albanian Bloodlines Project. As I stated earlier, the Serbs copied some of our samples (I guess to see how they compare), as can be seen on the tree I posted.
 
Trojet said:
What do you mean by "ambiguous about". He is Albanian, and member of our Albanian Bloodlines Project. As I stated earlier, the Serbs copied some of our samples, as can be seen on the tree I posted.
Click to expand...

I'm obviously ambigious about Adili being an Albanian surname as etymologically it is not Albanian but Arabic. So it could be any muslim.
 
Johane Derite said:
I'm obviously ambigious about Adili being an Albanian surname as etymologically it is not Albanian but Arabic. So it could be any muslim.
Click to expand...
Well, if you followed our project closer, and not have to rely on others, you would know he is an Albanian ;)
The name/surname is not totally strange among us either, just like other muslim names. Furthermore, he belongs to the same E-V13 subclade as a Catholic Albanian from Mirditë, Albania.
 
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Serbs from Croatia come exclusively with Vlach name,little with the Serbian name.

There are interesting Turkish records (year 1526 and 1660) from Montenegro, southern Serbia and by the river Drina that mentione Croats and Serbs are not mentioned there.

There is a record from 1697-1698

Petar Tolstoy (Russian Count) is in his Travel Guide to Italy and to the island of Malta 1697-1698. wrote that above Boka (Bay of Kotor) inhabited by Croats. .
(further from the Ercegnan road, living by Bregi(hills), overlooking the Horvates to Perast in the Albanian principality)
Click to expand...
 
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Trojet said:
Unfortunately many Albanians choose to test at 23andMe, LivingDNA, etc, which are next to useless for Y-DNA research (instead of FamilyTreeDNA or YSEQ and join Albanian Bloodlines Project), otherwise our E-V13 subclades would be much more researched.
Click to expand...

The Albanian Bloodlines Project is an extremely important initiative and good on you and Unikkatil for doing it and pushing it.

If you categorize it as unfortunate that Albanians are
testing with 23andme, Ancestry,etc then I have to break the bad news that this will not be getting any better for you.

For 50% of all Albanians, i.e. females, Ftdna's $170 Ydna 37 test is useless, unless they're willing to pay for their brother or father to do the test, which
statistically is unlikely.

For the other 50% of Albanians, i.e. the males, Ftdna's $170 Ydna is also useless as for a cheaper price they can get their Y haplogroup(not as deep clade), motherline, and autosmal.
Plus health reports with 23andme. Again, for the general population, knowing that you're EV13 and not I2 is enough.

The only strategies you can rely on to push Albanians from the general population to test with Ftdna are as follows:

1. Advertise 23andme, LivingDna,etc as useless in articles in Albanian media etc.

This scenario in the long run is futile as you do not have the resources to compete for exposure with companies like these, they will only get bigger and dominate the market more
while providing even better services.

2. Advertise testing with Ftdna i.e. deeper Y clades as a national duty/sacrifice/struggle for Albanian science.

This will work with some but again negligibly with the general population.

3. Rely on the general populations ignorance of other companies existence.

This can work with some, but it is in bad faith and will again not enrichen your sample size by much.



Overall, what i'm trying to say is, that unless you try to get subsidized by the Albanian or Kosovo state or some other NGO, fund, etc, the ftdna Albanian bloodlines project will not grow drastically any time soon or ever. If you are satisfied with the pace you have had then keep it up, but there needs to be more serious state supported research.

I didn't even mention YSEQ because that is way too confusing for the average citizen

Even me, as a DNA enthusiast, if I had 150 dollars, I would buy the 23andme test. Its ultimately much better value if i'm going to invest a months salary into a
dna test. YDna is great and all but autosomal is extremely attractive, especially with the health reports etc.
 
Trojet said:
Unfortunately many Albanians choose to test at 23andMe, LivingDNA, etc, which are next to useless for Y-DNA research (instead of FamilyTreeDNA or YSEQ and join Albanian Bloodlines Project), otherwise our E-V13 subclades would be much more researched. Anyways, with limited samples, here is what we have so far (I see in the above tree, the Serbs have copied some of our Albanian samples, lol):
V13Final-1.jpg
Click to expand...

Your genetic tree in the Serbian forum.
http://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1058.200

And below your tree is written
Where on this tree come Albanians E-V13?
Click to expand...

:LOL:

And no one answered him.
 
Johane Derite, our project keeps growing whether one chooses to participate in it or not. Examples are user hrvat22 pointing out his analysis, and the tree I posted.

I could care less where one tests, as I have nothing personally to gain out of this, but contribute to Albanian Y-DNA research. I just simply pointed out what's the best way to grow Albanian Y-DNA research (in case one is interested), since it's evident our neighbors are ahead of us.

And no, YSEQ (18 markers $58; 37 markers $85), which we recommend for our project is not confusing at all. In case it is, some of us are there to help ;)

Anyone here who understands subclades, clusters, TMRCAs, distribution, etc, will tell you there is much more to a haplogroup than just E-V13, R1b, I2, etc, even for an Albanian.

As far as Autosomal goes, I get complaints from Albanians all the time with their results. Like for example: "Well, I knew my DNA overwhelmingly comes from Southeastern Europe, or the Balkans". As for 23andMe "health reports", one will not get reliable results since it's obviously not based in Whole Genome Sequencing.
 
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hrvat22 said:
CTS9320 Mirdite (Albanian surname?)
Z16988 Bjelopavlići tribe
Klimenti (Albanian)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmendi_(tribe)

Z38456 Dibrri (Albanian surname?)
Adilji (Albanian surname?)
Lakić (Serbian from west dalmatia)

Z16661 Kuči tribe
S2792 Lisičić (Serbian surname)
FGC11450 Batanjaku (Albanian surname?)
L241 Gaši (Albanian surname?)
Karić (Serbian surname)
FGC33625 Beriša (Albanian surname?)
Sopić (Serbian surname)

PH1246 Vasojevići tribe
Rajovići (Serbian surname)
Bojačijev ??
TBD Scotland
Ireland

Key subclade is CTS5856 for which co-administrator of the FTDNA E-M35 project says that probably comes from triangle of Albania, Montenegro and Serbia.

This subclade and those after it has nothing to do with arrival of the Slavs to Balkans, it is clear that subclade CTS5856 is exclusive Albanian mutation.
Click to expand...

Hej which one is Z19851
and also one of them in PH1246 it looks like KING?
 
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