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Thread: New Planck-Harvard Center for Study of Ancient Mediterranean

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    2 members found this post helpful.

    New Planck-Harvard Center for Study of Ancient Mediterranean

    See:
    https://www.mpg.de/11535538/max-plan...esearch-center

    "Scientists from the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena and the Initiative for the Science of the Human Past at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, are collaborating in a new Research Center devoted to the archaeological and scientific study of the ancient Mediterranean. "

    "The most up-to-date genetic research methods are combined with established approaches of archaeologists and historians. This closes the gap that still exists between the natural sciences and the humanities when it comes to researching great questions of human history,” says Max Planck Society President Martin Stratmann."

    It's about time, but I hope they consult people other than German and British and American experts.


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    Whatever leads to a spike in anti depressant prescriptions among nordicists. Pharma companies won it big after the Egyptian and Mycenaean papers!

    Seriously though, sounds interesting

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    5 members found this post helpful.
    This series of talks was given today and is available on youtube. It features, among others, David Reich, Iosif Lazaridis, and Johannes Krause.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=c-vqlWhAPs8

    If you click on cc there are English subtitles, but they're rather small.

    It looks daunting because it's over two hours, but these were the only segments that I found interesting. Although most of what they say is known to those who have read the relevant papers, they do clarify some points, so I highly recommend listening to them.

    David Reich starts at 36 minutes talking about the Lazaridis paper on the ancient Near East, and goes on to discuss the Beakers at 41 minutes it. He clarifies some things from the Olalde paper.

    Lazaridis begins at 60 minutes and is a model of clarity, with some great graphs for people relatively new to this discipline, as some of the audience undoubtedly were. He subtly addresses some of the nonsense objections from archaeologists about why they called these samples Mycenaeans and Minoans. He then goes on to address the strangely high FST of the southern Italian sample, and no, there's nothing strange about the genetics of southern Italy. (Maybe he reads us? Wouldn't that be great?) As we had proposed, fst is highly affected by drift and this population may be a highly isolated, highly drifted population. The most interesting part of his talk was when he addressed whether the Bronze Age arrival which created the Mycenaean genetic population when they mingled with the Minoans came from the steppe or from the area which is now Armenia. He shows some graphs I don't remember seeing in the paper. Their conclusion is that they can't yet tell. (They might know, but are in the preliminary stages of the analysis, or they're waiting for the Caucasus paper to come out.)

    Krause then gave a very interesting talk on pandemics which started at 1:32. The most interesting part of the talk was the section on the pre-historic plague. The oldest and most basal form was found on the steppe north of the Caucasus from 5250-4350 years before present. It spread in both directions from there, reaching Germany by 4346-4098 before present, and earlier east of that. He didn't need to tell me that the map of spread and the dating was almost exactly that of the spread of the Indo-European languages, down to the back migration from near Corded Ware back out east. The strange thing is that it wasn't Bubonic plague, which leaves either Septicemia or Pneumatic plague as the forms of spread. The last is the worst option as you just need to be near someone who has it and sneezes, and you could be dead in three days. He links the various forms to the end of the Roman Empire, perhaps the crash of the Bronze Age Near East, and, of course, the death of half of Europe during the Middle Ages, the latter of which has also been traced to near the steppe, the Crimea to be exact. He omitted the final collapse of Old Europe, which seems to be another victory for this bacterium. Forget the horse, this was what the IEs brought with them at least to some places which may have been the coup de grace.
    Last edited by Angela; 11-10-17 at 06:48.

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    "He subtly addresses some of the nonsense objections from archaeologists about why they called these samples Mycenaeans and Minoans."

    Why were they objecting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    "He subtly addresses some of the nonsense objections from archaeologists about why they called these samples Mycenaeans and Minoans."

    Why were they objecting?
    It was typical nonsense from a certain type of archaeologist who just can't accept that ancient dna is going to change their discipline.

    How do we know what cultures they were from? Oh, I don't know, maybe read the Supplement and see the dates, context, artifacts.

    These are names given in a bygone era, just constructs, they don't mean anything. Yes, they are, but that's how they're commonly known. Call them Bronze Age mainland Greeks and Bronze Age Cretans if you like, but it doesn't change anything.

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    I would ask them where would we expect to find Mycenaeans then?

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    A great lecture to remind and consolidate what we know so far.
    Its part about evolution of the plague was fascinating. From non bubonic strains before 4kya in the Steppe, to bubonic and highly virulent later on throughout in Europe. Existence of today's strains, even in America, and help of hygiene and technology keeping it at bay today. It is interesting that certain strain of bubonic plague confirms movement of Bronze Age population from Central Europe to Central Asia where they took part in ethnogenesis of Sintashta and Andronovo.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Krause then gave a very interesting talk on pandemics which started at 1:32. The most interesting part of the talk was the section on the pre-historic plague. The oldest and most basal form was found on the steppe north of the Caucasus from 5250-4350 years before present. It spread in both directions from there, reaching Germany by 4346-4098 before present, and earlier east of that. He didn't need to tell me that the map of spread and the dating was almost exactly that of the spread of the Indo-European languages, down to the back migration from near Corded Ware back out east. The strange thing is that it wasn't Bubonic plague, which leaves either Septicemia or Pneumatic plague as the forms of spread. The last is the worst option as you just need to be near someone who has it and sneezes, and you could be dead in three days. He links the various forms to the end of the Roman Empire, perhaps the crash of the Bronze Age Near East, and, of course, the death of half of Europe during the Middle Ages, the latter of which has also been traced to near the steppe, the Crimea to be exact. He omitted the final collapse of Old Europe, which seems to be another victory for this bacterium. Forget the horse, this was what the IEs brought with them at least to some places which may have been the coup de grace.
    Well, that changed my perspective on the spread of IE languages, learned something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    He then goes on to address the strangely high FST of the southern Italian sample, and no, there's nothing strange about the genetics of southern Italy. (Maybe he reads us? Wouldn't that be great?) As we had proposed, fst is highly affected by drift and this population may be a highly isolated, highly drifted population.
    I saw that he answered a question. Who did the question?

    I appreciated Lazaridis's speech. Not only about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I saw that he answered a question. Who did the question?

    I appreciated Lazaridis's speech. Not only about this.
    I couldn't tell if it was someone from the audience or one of his fellow speakers. He has a very nice, gentle way about him so his answers didn't come across as impatient or condescending. As I said, and as one might imagine from his papers, he's also remarkably clear and simplifies the material for others. Also quite measured and cautious. He'd make a great teacher.

    @Ironside,
    In a way, this parallels what happened in the New World. It makes it much easier to prevail over vast areas if you bring pestilence with you. It just occurred to me to wonder whether the exodus from the steppe was in part an attempt to get away from it. Instead, they brought it with them if that's the case, and it would be quite an irony.

    Far be it from me to argue with Johannes Krause, but he makes a point of saying these communicable diseases came from the domestication of animals, but for the worst of them, the plague, animals like marmosets or perhaps squirrels were the hosts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Lazaridis begins at 60 minutes and is a model of clarity, with some great graphs for people relatively new to this discipline, as some of the audience undoubtedly were. He subtly addresses some of the nonsense objections from archaeologists about why they called these samples Mycenaeans and Minoans.
    the northern model is a possible explanation for the language shift in Mycenians, the eastern model not

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Whatever leads to a spike in anti depressant prescriptions among nordicists. Pharma companies won it big after the Egyptian and Mycenaean papers!
    When was the last time you saw a Nordicists poster? Nordicism isn't much of thing in the genetics-history sphere outside of alternative websites. And in case you think Davidski is a Nordicists, he's a Polish/R1a-centrist not a Nordicism, two different things. Anyways, his ethnocentrism doesn't prevent him from being objective or posting good content. He isn't a supremcist, he just likes to praise his own ancestry and doesn't care how insensitive some people might think that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Krause then gave a very interesting talk on pandemics which started at 1:32. The most interesting part of the talk was the section on the pre-historic plague. The oldest and most basal form was found on the steppe north of the Caucasus from 5250-4350 years before present. It spread in both directions from there, reaching Germany by 4346-4098 before present, and earlier east of that. He didn't need to tell me that the map of spread and the dating was almost exactly that of the spread of the Indo-European languages, down to the back migration from near Corded Ware back out east. The strange thing is that it wasn't Bubonic plague, which leaves either Septicemia or Pneumatic plague as the forms of spread. The last is the worst option as you just need to be near someone who has it and sneezes, and you could be dead in three days. He links the various forms to the end of the Roman Empire, perhaps the crash of the Bronze Age Near East, and, of course, the death of half of Europe during the Middle Ages, the latter of which has also been traced to near the steppe, the Crimea to be exact. He omitted the final collapse of Old Europe, which seems to be another victory for this bacterium. Forget the horse, this was what the IEs brought with them at least to some places which may have been the coup de grace.
    I'm sorry, but this explanation is to simple to be true.1/ I don't know of any population expanding because of being infected by a deadly disease. It takes other qualities to do that.2/ The European neolithic population crashed 500 years prior to the corded ware expansion.Probably the plague expanded on the back of expanding populations, but it was not the cause of the expansion. And those expansions need not to be exclusively IE.And we don't know how lethal this prehistoric plague actualy was. No proof of sudden death of whole populations have been found and no mass graves.

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    hum, the picture about the IE expansion would change a lot: from musculous warriors driving golden chariots with their long hairs weaving into the wind, to surviving beggars flying from dying villages expanding the death all over Europe?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    When was the last time you saw a Nordicists poster? Nordicism isn't much of thing in the genetics-history sphere outside of alternative websites. And in case you think Davidski is a Nordicists, he's a Polish/R1a-centrist not a Nordicism, two different things. Anyways, his ethnocentrism doesn't prevent him from being objective or posting good content. He isn't a supremcist, he just likes to praise his own ancestry and doesn't care how insensitive some people might think that is.
    I'm sure nordicists on alt websites read these things as well. I know I do as I'm a nordicist by and large. My family is from the northern mountains of Norway and if I had the means, I would have every Southern European, Jew, and Middle Easterner sent away to camps. And in response to anyone who would ever have the nerve to plead "but davef, the ancient Greeks and Romans built civilization with their scientific and political innovations" its time to learn a little history. The Greeks and Romans weren't the short ape like grunts you see residing in the nations where their empires once stood, they were 7 ft tall on average with glowing blue eyes, hair as blonde as a haystack, and went extinct due to lacking immunity to the diseases their slaves carried.
    To those who are new to me, that was sarcasm ;).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the northern model is a possible explanation for the language shift in Mycenians, the eastern model not
    Why not the eastern model ?? I think it still has some merit, I argued for the eastern model here https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post518111

    Both are possible, but in the case of the northern model, you need to explain the middle bronze age destruction as well as the relation between Armenian and Greek.
    Last edited by IronSide; 12-10-17 at 19:25.

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    I dont get a lot of reply, seems very communiste-like for me... Mythology of celts, germans, aryans, greeks... the warfare is not an idealised romantism that those little peasant tell to there childs for rassure their ego... Of course we can clearly see in Archeology and i dont understand why genetist try to go in archeologist territory, because scandinavian battle axe for instence, how do you explain its purpose with genetic, dont be so silly people. Now, the warfare-like culture coming with indo-europeans is just not the only purpose of is succes in europe and parts of asia. Like do you really think that a new genetic study making a correlation between indo-european spread and some kind of plague, gonna replace all archeology, and reconstructed mythology... I'm sorry, but i noticed, if a lot of people on Eupedia are not Nordicists, like some want to agree of. There is a lot of destructive people, who tried to just annihilate previous ideas for their " pensée unique ". Please people, just, dont try to create an history with your own ideological views...

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Why not the eastern model ?? I think it still has some merit, I argued for the eastern model here https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post518111Both are possible, but in the case of the northern model, you need to explain the middle bronze age destruction as well as the relation between Armenian and Greek.
    you're right, I was confused because in the video the same colouring for Iran/Caucasus was used as for Armenianwhat does the eastern model explain about the middle bronze age destruction? what do you mean by middle bronze age destruction? as for Armenian and Greek, they probably have a common ancestor, there need not to be a migration from Greece to Armenia or from Armenia to Greece, allthough both are possible

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @bicicleurI explained it in the link I provided.

    Destruction

    Archaeological evidence shows that the cities of Erzerum, Sivas, Pulur Huyuk near Baiburt, Kultepe near Hafik, and Maltepe near Sivas were destroyed during the Middle Bronze Age. The great trading city of Kanesh (Level II) was also destroyed. From there in the hill country between Halys the destruction layers from this time tell the same story. Karaoglan, Bitik, Polatli and Gordion were burnt, as well as Etiyokusu and Cerkes. Further west near the Dardanelles the two large mounds of Korpruoren and Tavsanli, west of Kutahya, show the same signs of being destroyed.
    The destruction even crossed into Europe in what is now Bulgaria. The migration brought an end to Bulgaria's Early Bronze Age, with archaeological evidence showing that the Yunacite, Salcutza, and Esero centers had a sudden mass desertion during this time.[1]

    Into Greece

    From the Dardanelles, the refugee invaders moved into mainland Greece, and the Peloponnese saw burnt and abandoned cities on par with the much later Dorian invasion which destroyed the Mycenaean civilization.[1] At this time, 1900 BC, destruction layers can be found at southern Greek sites like Orchomenos, Eutresis (de), Hagios Kosmas, Raphina, Apesokari, Korakou, Zygouries, Tiryns, Asine, Malthi and Asea. Many other sites are deserted, e.g. Yiriza, Synoro, Ayios Gerasimos, Kophovouni, Makrovouni, Palaiopyrgos, etc. This destruction across Greece also coincided with the arrival of a new culture that had no connection with the Early Helladic civilization, who were the original inhabitants.[1] Northern Greece escaped destruction, as well as southern Anatolia, which during this time showed no disturbances.[1]
    Last edited by IronSide; 12-10-17 at 19:19.

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    @IronSidethat is a possibilityI suppose Yamna R1b-Z2103 got dispersed under pressure of the Sintashta and Catacomb R1a-Z93 expansionNote that R1b-Z2103 has been found in both Vucedol culture and LBA Armenia. R1b-Z2103 may be the common ancestor of Greek and Armenian.Urartu was multi-ethnic and multi-lingual - just like the Hitite empire.The official language was Hurrite.But during a dynastic switch in the iron age the Armenian language appeared.Armenian was probably spoken in Urartu long before that, but as a secondary language.

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    No, Armenian wasn't there, Urartian place-names have not evolved along Armenian's phonetic characteristics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the northern model is a possible explanation for the language shift in Mycenians, the eastern model not
    I don't see why that's necessarily so. There are linguists who propose that some of the Indo-European languages came down through the Caucasus, including Hittite.

    It wouldn't have been Armenian speakers who arrived. The Greek speakers would just have come from the same general area.
    I could very well see them both carrying Z-2103.

    I don't know if the eastern hypothesis for the Greeks is the correct one, but I certainly think it's possible given what we know so far.

    People, I think the problem with the type is with our site. Go to settings and change from the highest setting to the third one down. I went looking for something in settings because my other output was fine even after the Windows upgrade.
    Last edited by Angela; 12-10-17 at 21:07.

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    Bicicleur, I don't think anyone has proposed that the bringing of plague was the only cause for the advance of the steppe people into Europe. I certainly haven't and wouldn't propose any such thing. It would be just one of many factors, as the bringing of measles, mumps, small pox and other diseases to the New World wasn't the only factor in the success of the Europeans. I don't think anyone could deny it was a huge factor however.

    I also don't know why you would expect lots of remains from people who died of disease. Half of Europe died of plague in the Middle Ages but the remains in the known plague pits don't equal that number of victims, and many of the pits are only being discovered now. Plus, the same argument could be made if the farmers died of starvation caused by climate change or were killed by the newcomers. Where are those mounds of skeletons? Yet it's clear that something dire happened to a lot of the farmers, whatever the cause.

    Furthermore, could you provide me with the dating you're using for the first contact between the farmers and the people of the steppe, and what particular group of farmers and the date you're using for the collapse?

    From David Anthony:
    " people from the steppes migrated to the fringes of and even into Old Europe, just before it collapsed. So there was a phase of intense interaction that involved people from the steppes immigrating into territories that had been occupied by Old European farmers. These steppe people seem to have been enriched by the contact, but we don’t know exactly how. They could have been looting; they could have been raiding. But the work has not really been done to answer that question in detail.

    What has happened is that we’ve been accumulating radiocarbon dates, but we need a lot of radiocarbon dates to answer this question. The great mass of radiocarbon dates now available have clarified the suddenness of the shift. But an explanation for the shift is going to depend on whether it was a sudden change or whether there was a slow evolution toward a new pattern. Those two different possibilities have been unresolved and argued about until recently, when we’ve collected enough radiocarbon dates so that, at least as far as I’m concerned, we have the evidence to say it was a sudden collapse."

    He's not mentioning the opposite movement, which was the movement of farmers onto the fringes of the steppe, which has been well documented.

    This is just one such interface:
    "Both hunter-gatherers and early farmers were attracted to the forest-steppe. They came face to face in the forest-steppe of the East Carpathian piedmont, northwest of the Black Sea, about 5800–5600 b.c.
    It was a meeting that utterly changed both ways of life because it provided the means for humanity to profit from the Eurasian grasslands: domesticated cattle and sheep. Cattle and sheep were grass processors. They soon spread into plains that formerly were grazed only by wild horses and antelope, and they converted grass into leather, milk, yogurt, cheese, meat, marrow, and bone—the foundation for life and wealth. The steppe region began to witness the emergence of societies committed to stock-breeding while the forest-steppe northwest of the Black Sea remained the home of increasingly prosperous and productive mixed farmers. An economic-cultural frontier formed between them. It remained the most clearly defined and contrastive cultural frontier in prehistoric Europe for about twenty-three hundred years, 5600–3300 b.c."
    http://www.encyclopedia.com/humaniti...uthern-steppes

    As for my comment about the steppe people fleeing from the disease, that was my speculation presented for discussion, not something proposed by Krause.
    I do think, though, that it's more than possible that the steppe people carried this disease with them wherever they went. The map of spread of the forms and the dates make that rather incontrovertible. It may not have been as virulent for them. Again, the history of the New World is a parallel. The Europeans carried smallpox with them, for example. It was fatal for many of them, but it was far more fatal for the native peoples. In certain areas the latter were totally wiped out.

    It's true we don't know how the earlier variant of plague was spread. That requires more research. If it was pneumonic, that is even worse than the bubonic version. Plus, even the bubonic form was present in the steppe by around 2000 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Bicicleur, I don't think anyone has proposed that the bringing of plague was the only cause for the advance of the steppe people into Europe. I certainly haven't and wouldn't propose any such thing. It would be just one of many factors, as the bringing of measles, mumps, small pox and other diseases to the New World wasn't the only factor in the success of the Europeans. I don't think anyone could deny it was a huge factor however. I also don't know why you would expect lots of remains from people who died of disease. Half of Europe died of plague in the Middle Ages but the remains in the known plague pits don't equal that number of victims, and many of the pits are only being discovered now. Plus, the same argument could be made if the farmers died of starvation caused by climate change or were killed by the newcomers. Where are those mounds of skeletons? Yet it's clear that something dire happened to a lot of the farmers, whatever the cause. Furthermore, could you provide me with the dating you're using for the first contact between the farmers and the people of the steppe, and what particular group of farmers and the date you're using for the collapse?From David Anthony:" people from the steppes migrated to the fringes of and even into Old Europe, just before it collapsed. So there was a phase of intense interaction that involved people from the steppes immigrating into territories that had been occupied by Old European farmers. These steppe people seem to have been enriched by the contact, but we don’t know exactly how. They could have been looting; they could have been raiding. But the work has not really been done to answer that question in detail. What has happened is that we’ve been accumulating radiocarbon dates, but we need a lot of radiocarbon dates to answer this question. The great mass of radiocarbon dates now available have clarified the suddenness of the shift. But an explanation for the shift is going to depend on whether it was a sudden change or whether there was a slow evolution toward a new pattern. Those two different possibilities have been unresolved and argued about until recently, when we’ve collected enough radiocarbon dates so that, at least as far as I’m concerned, we have the evidence to say it was a sudden collapse."He's not mentioning the opposite movement, which was the movement of farmers onto the fringes of the steppe, which has been well documented. This is just one such interface:"Both hunter-gatherers and early farmers were attracted to the forest-steppe. They came face to face in the forest-steppe of the East Carpathian piedmont, northwest of the Black Sea, about 5800–5600 b.c.It was a meeting that utterly changed both ways of life because it provided the means for humanity to profit from the Eurasian grasslands: domesticated cattle and sheep. Cattle and sheep were grass processors. They soon spread into plains that formerly were grazed only by wild horses and antelope, and they converted grass into leather, milk, yogurt, cheese, meat, marrow, and bone—the foundation for life and wealth. The steppe region began to witness the emergence of societies committed to stock-breeding while the forest-steppe northwest of the Black Sea remained the home of increasingly prosperous and productive mixed farmers. An economic-cultural frontier formed between them. It remained the most clearly defined and contrastive cultural frontier in prehistoric Europe for about twenty-three hundred years, 5600–3300 b.c."http://www.encyclopedia.com/humaniti...uthern-steppesAs for my comment about the steppe people fleeing from the disease, that was my speculation presented for discussion, not something proposed by Krause.I do think, though, that it's more than possible that the steppe people carried this disease with them wherever they went. The map of spread of the forms and the dates make that rather incontrovertible. It may not have been as virulent for them. Again, the history of the New World is a parallel. The Europeans carried smallpox with them, for example. It was fatal for many of them, but it was far more fatal for the native peoples. In certain areas the latter were totally wiped out. It's true we don't know how the earlier variant of plague was spread. That requires more research. If it was pneumonic, that is even worse than the bubonic version. Plus, even the bubonic form was present in the steppe by around 2000 BC.
    collapse of neolithic northwestern and central Europehttps://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3486that would have been some 5.3 ka, some 500 years before corded ware expanded into eastern and central Europe, and also before the plague was reported in this areaI think it is worthwile to do more research on the spread of this prehistoric plague, but what we know now is based upon this 1 study and is very little.The Mongols are sometimes acused to have brought the plague to Europe in the 13th century. But it was certainly not noticable while they were conquering and slaughtering and burning down all these cities.

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    If I recall well David Anthony claims the 1st invasion into the Balkans was 6.2-6 ka. It would have been a period of cold and drought and IE tribes tried to find shelter for their cattle in the Danube delta. Also the crops of the farmers would have been affected by the climate change.This would have caused disputes between the IE and the local farmers which over time led to the burning down of 600 neolithic villages. After that lifestyle in the Balkans would have changed with more emphasis on herding compared to farming. (Cernavoda culture)The common ancestor of the prehistoric plague is only 5.5 ka.I can imagine that those sedentary isolated farming communities who had to be self-sufficient could be very vulnerable even to small climate changes which happened very often. We tend to think that climate is stable, but it isn't.

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