Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
I don't see why that's necessarily so. There are linguists who propose that some of the Indo-European languages came down through the Caucasus, including Hittite.the northern model is a possible explanation for the language shift in Mycenians, the eastern model not
collapse of neolithic northwestern and central Europehttps://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3486that would have been some 5.3 ka, some 500 years before corded ware expanded into eastern and central Europe, and also before the plague was reported in this areaI think it is worthwile to do more research on the spread of this prehistoric plague, but what we know now is based upon this 1 study and is very little.The Mongols are sometimes acused to have brought the plague to Europe in the 13th century. But it was certainly not noticable while they were conquering and slaughtering and burning down all these cities.Bicicleur, I don't think anyone has proposed that the bringing of plague was the only cause for the advance of the steppe people into Europe. I certainly haven't and wouldn't propose any such thing. It would be just one of many factors, as the bringing of measles, mumps, small pox and other diseases to the New World wasn't the only factor in the success of the Europeans. I don't think anyone could deny it was a huge factor however. I also don't know why you would expect lots of remains from people who died of disease. Half of Europe died of plague in the Middle Ages but the remains in the known plague pits don't equal that number of victims, and many of the pits are only being discovered now. Plus, the same argument could be made if the farmers died of starvation caused by climate change or were killed by the newcomers. Where are those mounds of skeletons? Yet it's clear that something dire happened to a lot of the farmers, whatever the cause. Furthermore, could you provide me with the dating you're using for the first contact between the farmers and the people of the steppe, and what particular group of farmers and the date you're using for the collapse?From David Anthony:" people from the steppes migrated to the fringes of and even into Old Europe, just before it collapsed. So there was a phase of intense interaction that involved people from the steppes immigrating into territories that had been occupied by Old European farmers. These steppe people seem to have been enriched by the contact, but we don’t know exactly how. They could have been looting; they could have been raiding. But the work has not really been done to answer that question in detail. What has happened is that we’ve been accumulating radiocarbon dates, but we need a lot of radiocarbon dates to answer this question. The great mass of radiocarbon dates now available have clarified the suddenness of the shift. But an explanation for the shift is going to depend on whether it was a sudden change or whether there was a slow evolution toward a new pattern. Those two different possibilities have been unresolved and argued about until recently, when we’ve collected enough radiocarbon dates so that, at least as far as I’m concerned, we have the evidence to say it was a sudden collapse."He's not mentioning the opposite movement, which was the movement of farmers onto the fringes of the steppe, which has been well documented. This is just one such interface:"Both hunter-gatherers and early farmers were attracted to the forest-steppe. They came face to face in the forest-steppe of the East Carpathian piedmont, northwest of the Black Sea, about 5800–5600 b.c.It was a meeting that utterly changed both ways of life because it provided the means for humanity to profit from the Eurasian grasslands: domesticated cattle and sheep. Cattle and sheep were grass processors. They soon spread into plains that formerly were grazed only by wild horses and antelope, and they converted grass into leather, milk, yogurt, cheese, meat, marrow, and bone—the foundation for life and wealth. The steppe region began to witness the emergence of societies committed to stock-breeding while the forest-steppe northwest of the Black Sea remained the home of increasingly prosperous and productive mixed farmers. An economic-cultural frontier formed between them. It remained the most clearly defined and contrastive cultural frontier in prehistoric Europe for about twenty-three hundred years, 5600–3300 b.c."http://www.encyclopedia.com/humanit...ts-and-maps/farming-frontier-southern-steppesAs for my comment about the steppe people fleeing from the disease, that was my speculation presented for discussion, not something proposed by Krause.I do think, though, that it's more than possible that the steppe people carried this disease with them wherever they went. The map of spread of the forms and the dates make that rather incontrovertible. It may not have been as virulent for them. Again, the history of the New World is a parallel. The Europeans carried smallpox with them, for example. It was fatal for many of them, but it was far more fatal for the native peoples. In certain areas the latter were totally wiped out. It's true we don't know how the earlier variant of plague was spread. That requires more research. If it was pneumonic, that is even worse than the bubonic version. Plus, even the bubonic form was present in the steppe by around 2000 BC.
That would mean that the Armenians arrived in Armenia only in the sixth century BC, with the Orontid Dynasty. All the kings before were Hurrite Urartian. That seems unlikely to me as R1b-Z2103 was already found in LBA Armenia.No, Armenian wasn't there, Urartian place-names have not evolved along Armenian's phonetic characteristics.
That would mean that the Armenians arrived in Armenia only in the sixth century BC, with the Orontid Dynasty. All the kings before were Hurrite Urartian. That seems unlikely to me as R1b-Z2103 was already found in LBA Armenia.
Bicicleur,
I have no problem with the proposal that climate change might have severely weakened farming cultures in central Europe. I just don't understand why you are so adamant that disease might not also have been a factor.
As for David Anthony, not that I think he is the be all and end all, his latest statement, which I posted above, certainly doesn't sound as if he necessarily sees this as an abrupt change brought about by invasion. He's very cautious about it.
These are some screen shots from the talk. From the samples they've tested, these are some of the dates and locations. Now that they know what to look for, I think it would be very beneficial to test all the ancient samples we have for that general period and see what it shows.
https://ibb.co/jxwPFb
This is the tree branching.
https://ibb.co/jytt8w
Angela, the extract you quote from David Anthony, what period is he talking about? There is no date in the extract.
@bicicleurI explained it in the link I provided.
Destruction
Archaeological evidence shows that the cities of Erzerum, Sivas, Pulur Huyuk near Baiburt, Kultepe near Hafik, and Maltepe near Sivas were destroyed during the Middle Bronze Age. The great trading city of Kanesh (Level II) was also destroyed. From there in the hill country between Halys the destruction layers from this time tell the same story. Karaoglan, Bitik, Polatli and Gordion were burnt, as well as Etiyokusu and Cerkes. Further west near the Dardanelles the two large mounds of Korpruoren and Tavsanli, west of Kutahya,
show the same signs of being destroyed.
The destruction even crossed into Europe in what is now Bulgaria. The migration brought an end to Bulgaria's Early Bronze Age, with archaeological evidence showing that the Yunacite, Salcutza, and Esero centers had a sudden mass desertion during this time.[1]
Into Greece
From the Dardanelles, the refugee invaders moved into mainland Greece, and the Peloponnese saw burnt and abandoned cities on par with the much later Dorian invasion which destroyed the Mycenaean civilization.[1] At this time, 1900 BC, destruction layers can be found at southern Greek sites like Orchomenos, Eutresis (de), Hagios Kosmas, Raphina, Apesokari, Korakou, Zygouries, Tiryns, Asine, Malthi and Asea. Many other sites are deserted, e.g. Yiriza, Synoro, Ayios Gerasimos, Kophovouni, Makrovouni, Palaiopyrgos, etc. This destruction across Greece also coincided with the arrival of a new culture that had no connection with the Early Helladic civilization, who were the original inhabitants.[1] Northern Greece escaped destruction, as well as southern Anatolia, which during this time showed no disturbances.[1]
Well, that changed my perspective on the spread of IE languages, learned something.
There are other trees; this is just one of them, but they're not all that different from one another.
Follow the links below to examine some of the evidence for the past existence of the Proto Indo-European language, based on common words in the languages found in and around Europe and India.
Then there is my theory that the "IE languages" are in fact not from Indo-Europeans, but from Caucasians (GHIJK xK2). If IE languages are heavily related to ancient Celtic and Slavic languages, then I withdraw my theory.
This thread has been viewed 24676 times.