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Thread: J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

  1. #226
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: Serbia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yeah, it's DYS456 14

  2. #227
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
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    Country: Albania



    Hello, i have looked at situation.

    Bulgar with DYS385ab 15-20 is atypical among Bulgars as almost all of them have values 15-19 there.
    Also this specific Bulgar did only 12 markers therefore we cannot be sure where he branches out.

    Your closest match is Ostojic from Podunavski Okrug, you two match at GD 3/17. Within these 3 differences (DYS458, GATAH, DYS456) two are fast mutating markers.
    Therefore i would say that TMRCA with you and Ostojic is probably 300 - 600 years. Since you two live 80km approximately one from another, and you two share speculative TMRCA of 300 - 600 years, i would say that you both live at this area at least that long as much your TMRCA is.
    Since you two are confirmed in Montenegro 1200 years ago, and now you are confirmed in Podunavski Okrug - Novo Selo relation for about 500 years ago. I dont see how this leaves time for participation among Sarakatsani, Greeks or something else.

    Looks like you are Kriçi tribal that is living not far away from Montenegro where Kriçi tribe originates from.


    Also note that Ostojic did bigY test and he is Y22063 negative. Therefore i would assume that you are negative as well.

    Note also that there is Hungarian with these values DYS385ab 15-20 that matches you and Ostojic 12/12 but on 37 markers him and Ostojic are not that close as you and Ostojic are.
    Therefore i would conclude that only you and Ostojic fall into same group, and these that are at similar or lower distance if there is any.

  3. #228
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    Yeah, I was resting on the assumption that 15-20 is typical for Bulgars, as you've said. Novo Selo is not approximately 80 km from Podunavski okrug, there is at least 200km, but still, I see your point. I was alluding to pre-Krici period for Sarakatsani. Well I thought it made sense, it fit well with everything I read and knew about migration of my ancestors. I guess we'll never know why they call us Greeks x)

    Thanks for the input!

  4. #229
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    There is few roads in between Podunavski Okrug and Novo Selo, but i measured air line, which would be 80 km. Which is not that really far away, also when you look at map. No probs, have fun.

  5. #230
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It's 170km from the closest dot of Podunavski Okrug to Novo Selo.
    https://imgur.com/a/uvvza5i Here's the picture.

    There are many villages called Novo Selo in Serbia. I am referring to the one in the image, near Mlaciste...

  6. #231
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    Where do you find matches? Like Ostojic and that Hungarian? Someone told me that Ostojici are from Novi Glog (Vranjsko Pomoravlje), and not Podunavski okrug.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    Where do you find matches? Like Ostojic and that Hungarian? Someone told me that Ostojici are from Novi Glog (Vranjsko Pomoravlje), and not Podunavski okrug.

    They are both in official FTDNA J2-M172 project where most of J2 are. Me included. He stated as his ancestral surname to be Ostojic, maybe its not his modern surname.
    I dont know. Also as i already said he did bigY and you can see he uploaded to Yfull when you put mouse over his sample it says location: Serbia, Podunavski Okrug - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/
    It would be best if you contact Petar Demic as he seems fair guy when explaining things, also i am sure that he will know the answers to your questions.

  8. #233
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    nvm i repost tomorrow with better pics
    Last edited by Dema; 26-01-19 at 01:32.

  9. #234
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    As i said yesterday, there is new feature available in FTDNA for these that did BIG-Y test. Its called The Big Y Block Tree.

    The Big Y Block Tree is a vertical-block diagram of the Y-DNA Haplotree showing the relationships between you and other Big Y testers. This tool helps you visualize how the paternal lineages of you and your matches are related to each other. You will also be able to see your matches’ branches and discover which autosomal origins and Paternal Countries of Origin have been reported for your branch and others. Please note that Big Y test is an exploratory test that is constantly discovering previously unknown SNPs. As new SNPs are discovered and added to the Y-DNA haplotree, this will alter the structure of the branches, and potentially move your branch further downstream. In addition, as more people test, it can help to refine SNPs currently thought to be equivalent to build an ever increasingly accurate SNP lineage. The Origins section is displayed at the top of the information card. This section displays the number of autosomal origins (myOrigins) related to that branch.
    Basically we can look at Y-DNA phylogeny to understand it better also we can see autosomal components which are present at certain branches.
    *Note that this takes into account only these that did BIG-Y + autosomal (family finder) test at FTDNA.

    When looking at Y22066*/Y22059* and Y22063 sub-branches, its interesting because Southeast component is most prevailing.
    Regarding Balkan and more specifically Montenegro in this case, Southeast represents Albanian or Paleo-Balkan autosomal components.
    While East represents Slavic autosomal components. Its interesting to see even this sub-branch is currently made of 4 South-Slavs and 1 Albanian (all with 1200 ybp Montenegrin Y-DNA origin), Southeast component is most prevailing.









    Also when looking J2-M205 generally Southeast is significant with 15 %, with Asia Minor being the same percentage.
    This results could change as more people do autosomal (family finder test). It would be good if other members from Middle East and under designations PF7321 and M205, if they would also do autosomal tests to get more complete picture.








    Just for compare and example, this is how situation stands within I2a-CTS10228* that we know is Slavic in origin and peaks in Bosnia and Hercegovina:

    Last edited by Dema; 26-01-19 at 16:26.

  10. #235
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    I did not respond to this comment since I still don't understand what all of this means and I don't have a lot of time to research. Is there a simpler explanation?

  11. #236
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    We got our first Saudi Arabian sample who is CTS1969 positive!
    Looks like he upped the entire J2-M205 TMRCA to 6000 years together with CTS1969 TMRCA, also looks like he is basal CTS1969?

    As it can be seen on Yfull he is from Mekkah, Saudi Arabia. Mashallah! https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    I did not respond to this comment since I still don't understand what all of this means and I don't have a lot of time to research. Is there a simpler explanation?

    Have you done autosomal family finder test? It analyses your complete DNA 2000 years back. After 2.0 update things in Balkan regarding Albanian and Slavic populations are very clear.
    East Europe component represents Slavic autosomal DNA, while Southeast Albanian one.

    So we can take a extra peak into peoples autosomal results these way, partially at least to get somewhat of idea. For example if there is German into some branch and he scores 100 % West and Central Europe, and there is also Polish guy into a same branch and he scores 100 % East Europe in autosomal test. When they both do bigY test, their branch will be represented as 50 % West and Central Europe and 50 % East Europe by autosomal components.
    Now as you can see on pictures above, there is actually branch I2a-S20602 where there is only one German and one Polish guy that have done familyfinder + bigY at FTDNA. So by their results, when you look on picture above, they partially score West and Central Europe, East Europe, and small percentage of Southeast Europe. Now when we look at that branch on Yfull, we can see that there is also plenty of Greeks and some Bulgars, Lithuanians, so if they all would do bigY and familyfinder at FTDNA these results would change.


    Look for family finder test at FTDNA you can get it for low as 30 $ when all coupons and holiday discounts are applied. Because in addition when you look for Y-dna relatives, its also interesting to see your autosomal relatives and components.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Have you done autosomal family finder test? It analyses your complete DNA 2000 years back. After 2.0 update things in Balkan regarding Albanian and Slavic populations are very clear.
    East Europe component represents Slavic autosomal DNA, while Southeast Albanian one.

    So we can take a extra peak into peoples autosomal results these way, partially at least to get somewhat of idea. For example if there is German into some branch and he scores 100 % West and Central Europe, and there is also Polish guy into a same branch and he scores 100 % East Europe in autosomal test. When they both do bigY test, their branch will be represented as 50 % West and Central Europe and 50 % East Europe by autosomal components.
    Now as you can see on pictures above, there is actually branch I2a-S20602 where there is only one German and one Polish guy that have done familyfinder + bigY at FTDNA. So by their results, when you look on picture above, they partially score West and Central Europe, East Europe, and small percentage of Southeast Europe. Now when we look at that branch on Yfull, we can see that there is also plenty of Greeks and some Bulgars, Lithuanians, so if they all would do bigY and familyfinder at FTDNA these results would change.


    Look for family finder test at FTDNA you can get it for low as 30 $ when all coupons and holiday discounts are applied. Because in addition when you look for Y-dna relatives, its also interesting to see your autosomal relatives and components.
    Family finder is commercial bs.
    The best autosomal calculator is Eurogenes K13.

    This is average Eurogenes K13 of 23 tested Serbs from various regions.


    The highest Baltic score of these 23 Serbs have one Serb from Lika (I2-PH908) 33.79%.
    On the second place is Serb from Banija (I2-PH908) with 33.25% Baltic.

  14. #239
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Family finder is commercial bs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    The best autosomal calculator is Eurogenes K13..



    Who have told you this? Its not true. Have you done autosomal test? Family Finder is just one of tests offered by FTDNA. Family Finder then branches out into Matches, Chromosome Browser, Linked Relationships, myOrigins, ancientOrigins, and Wellness Report categories. Family finder also includes a labaratory DNA testing of your sample and provides you with raw data. What you wanted to say is probably about myOrigins category under Family Finder test. Its true that myOrigins is just a calculator, but with all due respect, out of all actual testing companies FTDNAs myOrigin is for sure most precize and well updated calculator. Currently myOrigin is very precize regarding Balkans and i would for sure take it into consideration.

    The Eurogenes K13 is only one of free calculators offered by Gedmatch (free open data personal genomics database). Not an actual testing company. You can upload your raw data from Family Finder into Gedmatch to see how other calculators react on your raw data. There is plenty of useful and good calculators offered by Gedmatch and not only K13. There is newer calculator under Eurogenes project Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15. Then there are K9, K12, K36.
    Also try MDLP K16 Modern, MDLP K23b, puntDNAL K10 Ancient, puntDNAL K12 Modern, puntDNAL K13 Global, puntDNAL K15, Ancient Eurasia K6, Gedrosia K3.
    I have already run all these calculators and Albanians have actually mapped themselves long ago on K15 DNA map.
    Also i would suggest uploading raw data to DNA Land as they also offer very interesting calculation for free. And dont only look at components that Gedmatch calculators displays but also look at population similarities and genetic distance from various populations.

    It is important to understand difference between testing company and various calculators that work based on raw data produced by testing laboratories.

    Gedmatch K13 is for sure good calculator but far away from being perfect or best. All of calculators work based on similarity and when realistically looking at all these calculators FTDNAs myOrigin is without doubt one of most accurate calculators out there. Then of course for more advance approach or some precise targeted area its good to run specific Gedmatch calculators.

    This is few of Albanians from DNA community on Gedmatch K15 Eurogenes pca plotting map made long time ago:



  15. #240
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    How much I follow public DNA base for J2b M205 it is interesting that Albanians this branch does not have much. This branch is located in the area of Croatia where Vlachs are coming and it is very likely that comes from direction of Bulgaria or Serbia.

    J2b M205 probably has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs but considering that Albanians have M205 less it is possible that this is a Bulgarian Vlach connection which would go from direction of Bulgaria possibly Romania through Serbia to the Croatia bypassing Albania, but it's strange that J2b M205 in Albanians is not in higher percentage considering that this is still a Balkan branch and they had to mix if they lived as neighbors(Albania-Bulgaria etc).

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    How much I follow public DNA base for J2b M205 it is interesting that Albanians this branch does not have much. This branch is located in the area of Croatia where Vlachs are coming and it is very likely that comes from direction of Bulgaria or Serbia.
    J2-M205 is classic Mediterranean and Proto-Semitic Cannanite haplogroup. We know that it is not Slavic in origin neither it arrived here with 7 century Early Slavs so it is pointless to even mention it.

    Most spread branch in Balkan is one where i also fall in, Y22059. It is found among Krajina Croatian and Bosnian Serbs, but much rarer at Croats or Muslim Bosnjaks, and no existent in Slovenia.
    Also at near Montenegro Serbia Serbs and at Montenegrins from Montenegro. With Serbs testing different Krici/Kricka related surnames they all turned out J2-M205>Y22059* therefore that is why we have basis to claim that Krici tribe was Y22059 dominant. Kriçi are 12 century early North Montenegrin tribe that everyone recorded as none Slavic natives. Also all of us falling in Y22059 clade have TMRCA around 1200 years, 1000 at a moment by Yfull. Which still goes in tribal time when Kriçi tribe was expanding or not much earlier. Montenegrins assimilated Kriçi into Montenegrin therefore Serb ethnos along side majority of that extraordinary Montenegrin 30 % of E-v13 and clades like J2b2, R1b and few others.

    But there is multiple different branches of M205 in Balkans and more specifically in Albania, Greece, Italy, France, England, Cyprus, Lebanon and so on where most of branches have separation time 5000 - 6000 years one from another.
    M205 is old Mediterranean haplogroup and even tho some Serbs were lying that its none existent among Albanians, after i went thru some studies i found Albanian samples exactly in studies where they claimed that there is none, one of them is my Y-DNA relative N Novakovic, Serbian administrator who lied about these things but when i arrived on lvl to double check his work analyzing STRs in studies where he claimed that there is no Albanians i managed to find them.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    J2b M205 probably has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs but considering that Albanians have M205 less it is possible that this is a Bulgarian Vlach connection which would go from direction of Bulgaria possibly Romania through Serbia to the Croatia bypassing Albania, but it's strange that J2b M205 in Albanians is not in higher percentage considering that this is still a Balkan branch and they had to mix if they lived as neighbors(Albania-Bulgaria etc).
    J2-M205 is a bit lower at Albanians then it supposed to be, but actually when comparing Italians, Greeks, Spaniards and so on, J2-M205 is just solid in Albania.
    I have managed to find 10 Albanians so far, we have 4 different branches and TMRCA 6000 years. Our branch Y22059 included and its nothing special in comparing to other Mediterranean M205 branches.

    Serbs have abnormal presence of M205, only because of assimilation of one complete developed Montenegrin tribe, which their TMRCA also shows, 1000 years.
    Same as they did with Vasojevici, another Montenegrin E-v13 tribe and its clade is also missing among Albanians, but we have found it finally and looks like it separated about 800 years earlier then Vasojevici and Croatian clades combined.

    Origin of M205 is not Bulgaria neither they have percentage neither variations, but rather all Mediterranean countries where it peaks at Cyprus. Ancient DNA is from 2500 BCE Jordan and 1700 BCE Lebanon Sidon.
    We have one Branch of M205 that has spread from Lebanon Palestine all south to Oman and Yemen, incl some Mumbai Jews.


    Best candidates for spread of M205 on Mediterranean Sea are Phoenicians because we clearly have Phoenician 1700 BCE Sidon ancient DNA and most of branches are for thousands of years one from another. Exception for few branches like Spanish-Puerto Rico branch that shares TMRCA with Palestine and Saudis 2000 years so we could speculate about Roman migration, most of branches are much older.

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    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...72?iframe=ymap

    J2-M172 Project shows that J2b M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066 Balkan cluster have Croatian Serbs, Serbians and Bulgarians, considering that for Croatian and Bosnian Serbs exist historical data and that they migrated from somewhere excludes possibility that this Balkan cluster have origin in Croatia, since some Romanian Vlachs possible also Bulgarian are also mentioned in writing that come to Croatia possibly that this is part of that genetics, it is possible that some of these Vlachs also going towards Albania.

    We need to know the Vlachs coming from all sides to Croatia and someone (Vlachs from Bulgaria, Romania) goes and to Albania, Greece etc. Not all Vlachs coming from direction of Albania, Macedonia, Greece to Croatia because the Romanians and Bulgarians are also mentioned in Croatia at least linguistically. This is and logic because it does not only Albanians escape from Turks and others fleeing.

    In my opinion this is a Bulgarian conection, but as I said in the future we will know more concretely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...72?iframe=ymap

    J2-M172 Project shows that J2b M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066 Balkan cluster have Croatian Serbs, Serbians and Bulgarians, considering that for Croatian and Bosnian Serbs exist historical data and that they migrated from somewhere excludes possibility that this Balkan cluster have origin in Croatia, since some Romanian Vlachs possible also Bulgarian are also mentioned in writing that come to Croatia possibly that this is part of that genetics, it is possible that some of these Vlachs also going towards Albania.
    Yes this is true that we have few Bulgarian, Romanian, even ethnic Croat or Muslim Bosnjak samples inside of this clade. But by my free judgment Serbs must have over 80 or 90 % of this subclade distribution. Which all again with its TMRCA 1000 years points out at Montenegrin Kriçi tribe. After slavicization they identified with Serbs because of their Orthodox religion just like big majority of Montenegrin and South Serb E-v13 did. I dont think M205>Y22059/Y22066 has anything to do with Vlachs and we cannot connect it with any Vlach group. But rather with Montenegrin native tribe of probably Illyrian origin if they were native to Montenegro and managed to expand so well. But of course going more further back in history, of probably Phoenician Semitic origin. I was considering this Vlach theory long ago but simply it does not hold water. You can read many pages back, i was considering Byzantine arrival theory from Middle East in 10 century CE, but i dropped down all these theories since with gaining more experience i realized that i was foolish.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    We need to know the Vlachs coming from all sides to Croatia and someone (Vlachs from Bulgaria, Romania) goes and to Albania, Greece etc. Not all Vlachs coming from direction of Albania, Macedonia, Greece to Croatia because the Romanians and Bulgarians are also mentioned in Croatia at least linguistically. This is and logic because it does not only Albanians escape from Turks and others fleeing.

    In my opinion this is a Bulgarian connection, but as I said in the future we will know more concretely.
    J2-M205 is none existent in Vlachs, as i went thru Bosch et al 2006 major Vlach/Aromun study. M205 is connected with Proto-Semites, Mediterraneans, and Canaanites.

    They tested Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romanians from Constanta, Romanians from Ploiesti, Aromuns from Dukasi in Albania, Aromuns from Andon Poci in Albania, Aromuns from Krusevo in Macedonia, Aromuns from the Stip region in Macedonia and Aromuns from Romania.

    The only two J2-M205 samples from this study were found in Albania. One at Aromun in Andon Poçi and another one at Albanian in Tirana.

    We have plenty of J2-M205 in Greece, and more south but none at Aromuns/Vlachs or their groups.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Regarding Croatian and Bosnian so called "Vlachs", in fact today Orthodox Serbs. There is no doubt that they were recorded as such, and that they are a bit genetically different from their Croatian, Bosnian Muslim/Catholic, Slovenian and so on neighbours, but mostly in higher percentage of E-v13 haplogroup which is regularly in these areas accompanied with J2-M205 haplogroup. I would use these two signals as most important one to differentiate them. But of course there are also other haplogroups in smaller percentage like J2b2 and R1b.


    So regarding J2-M205 but probably also many clades of E-v13 like also found E-v13>Y30991, we can connect them with native Balkan people of Montenegro South Serbia population rather then with Vlachs.


    Bosch et al 2006, which did a wonderful work studying Vlachs proved that they are just standard Balkan population, only a bit isolated.
    They are mostly Latinised remains of Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Greeks with also later Slavic influence mostly noticeable in I2a-CTS10228 and R1a haplogroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Regarding Croatian and Bosnian so called "Vlachs", in fact today Orthodox Serbs. There is no doubt that they were recorded as such, and that they are a bit genetically different from their Croatian, Bosnian Muslim/Catholic, Slovenian and so on neighbours, but mostly in higher percentage of E-v13 haplogroup which is regularly in these areas accompanied with J2-M205 haplogroup. I would use these two signals as most important one to differentiate them. But of course there are also other haplogroups in smaller percentage like J2b2 and R1b.


    So regarding J2-M205 but probably also many clades of E-v13 like also found E-v13>Y30991, we can connect them with native Balkan people of Montenegro South Serbia population rather then with Vlachs.


    Bosch et al 2006, which did a wonderful work studying Vlachs proved that they are just standard Balkan population, only a bit isolated.
    They are mostly Latinised remains of Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Greeks with also later Slavic influence mostly noticeable in I2a-CTS10228 and R1a haplogroups.
    Kriči tribe are tiny minority among Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia. They joined to I2a and R1a Serbian Slavic majority, like you ancestors joined to Albanians.

    Here is Dalmatian Serb y dna:
    I2a-Din - 39%
    I1 - 24%
    E-V13 - 13%
    R1a - 8%
    J2b - 6%
    N - 4%
    J1 - 4%
    R1b - 3%
    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ian-serb-Y-dna

    Kriči are only 6% among Dalmatian Serbs.


    K15 Eurogenes of full Dalmatian Serb (I2-PH908).

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Atlantic 19.04
    2 Baltic 18.7
    3 North_Sea 17.96
    4 Eastern_Euro 12.11
    5 East_Med 10.61
    6 West_Med 10.37
    7 West_Asian 7.21
    8 Red_Sea 3.52
    9 South_Asian 0.41

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance:
    1 Serbian 4.26
    2 Austrian 5.88
    3 Croatian 6.36
    4 Romanian 6.71
    5 Hungarian 6.92
    6 Moldavian 7.03
    7 Bulgarian 9.26
    8 East_German 10.65
    9 South_Polish 12.58
    10 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.66
    11 Ukrainian 13.62
    12 Polish 14.87
    13 Russian_Smolensk 15.56
    14 South_Dutch 15.63
    15 French 16.11
    16 Ukrainian_Belgorod 16.33
    17 West_German 16.73
    18 Southwest_Russian 16.73
    19 Greek_Thessaly 16.81
    20 Southwest_Finnish 16.99

    You cheep propaganda is debunked!

  21. #246
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    Country: Canada



    My samples from BigY (top) and Dante Labs (bottom):


  22. #247
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    Dante's results are better. I've checked J-CTS1969 in YSEQ. It's negative. So, I am J-PF7321*.

    I'm waiting for results from Big Y-700. And I've ordered Dante Labs Long Read test.

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    Krajina Serb from Banija (I2-PH908) from Dvor na Uni, K15 map and K36 map.





    He is the closest to Austrians on K15 Eurogenes and to Slovenians on K36.

    More details about results of this Krajina Banija Serb are here on page 15 https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post5887747

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mich Glitch View Post
    My samples from BigY (top) and Dante Labs (bottom):

    Very good, yes i realized that this might also be your result. But i thought that its from bigY-500 to bigY-700 upgrade. Looks like Dante had better coverage and now you are confirmed PF7231*, what are your closest relatives STR wise, do you get any Ukraine closer match? Did you find these Ukraine J2b1s from public studies and compare your markes to them, they probably fall in your cluster

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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    Here is my neighborhood by 111 Y-STR markers (my sample in red):


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