J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

[saversiplm]

Hello guys sorry for my stupid question:I took and ancestery dna and used other tools to find my haplogtoup and they say its j2b1.Are those tools pretty accurate?I am from Arad,Romania.Maybe at some point i will update but not this year for sure

 

[Dema]

Hello guys sorry for my stupid question:I took and ancestery dna and used other tools to find my haplogtoup and they say its j2b1.Are those tools pretty accurate?I am from Arad,Romania.Maybe at some point i will update but not this year for sure

This kind of tests are ideal for beginners to waste their money, sadly. However, i would say that your haplogroup prediction is accurate. It would be best if you test 37 or 67 markers at FTDNA for beginning.
There was ideal opportunity now for holidays i think it was 90$ for Y-37. Wait for such opportunities you can get it in half price.


Best regards : )

 

[Mercurial]

Ok, so new updates. I do have 15-20 on 385ab, I was mistaken. Now i will present the 17 markers.

DYS393 12
DYS390 23
DYS19 15
DYS391 10
DYS385a 15
DYS385b 20
DYS439 12
DYS389i 12
DYS392 12
DYS389ii 28
DYS458 15
DYS437 14
DYS448 19
YGATAH4 12
DYS456 14
DYS438 9
DYS635 20


Furthermore, I looked deeper into historical data and found that Stojanovics (my last name) in Novo Selo moved there from Bulgaria a long time ago. So 15-20 on 385ab does correlate with "Bulgars"... as you mentioned above. Also, Novo Selo is near Mlaciste where Sarakatsani (Karakacani) came at one point from Bulgaria, and south western Bulgaria (Rila and Samokov towns) has a lot of Sarakatsani, so it is still a possible theory that we do indeed come from Sarakatsani (which are native Greek) at one point, even though we do come from Levant looking further back. It would be interesting to compare if there are any M205 Bulgars from that area and if they might have Sarakatsani heritage. It also correlates with people calling us "Greeks" in Orasac. The place where Stojanovics moved after Novo Selo. We also gained a nickname Novoselci when we moved there. I thought this might be interesting. Cheers.

 

[Mercurial]

I found one Bulgarian sample so far with same markers so far. Atanas Petko Harizanov(1880-1959) Ditchin (Tesal)

P.S. I have no idea how to attach pictures so i will post a link: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bulgariandna/default.aspx?section=yresults

 

[Dema]

Hello, i will look at this, very interesting, thanks for sharing. I think you named one marker wrong by accident i dont know which marker it is? "DYS45 14"

 

[Mercurial]

Yeah, it's DYS456 14

 

[Dema]

Hello, i have looked at situation.

Bulgar with DYS385ab 15-20 is atypical among Bulgars as almost all of them have values 15-19 there.
Also this specific Bulgar did only 12 markers therefore we cannot be sure where he branches out.

Your closest match is Ostojic from Podunavski Okrug, you two match at GD 3/17. Within these 3 differences (DYS458, GATAH, DYS456) two are fast mutating markers.
Therefore i would say that TMRCA with you and Ostojic is probably 300 - 600 years. Since you two live 80km approximately one from another, and you two share speculative TMRCA of 300 - 600 years, i would say that you both live at this area at least that long as much your TMRCA is.
Since you two are confirmed in Montenegro 1200 years ago, and now you are confirmed in Podunavski Okrug - Novo Selo relation for about 500 years ago. I dont see how this leaves time for participation among Sarakatsani, Greeks or something else.

Looks like you are Kriçi tribal that is living not far away from Montenegro where Kriçi tribe originates from.


Also note that Ostojic did bigY test and he is Y22063 negative. Therefore i would assume that you are negative as well.

Note also that there is Hungarian with these values DYS385ab 15-20 that matches you and Ostojic 12/12 but on 37 markers him and Ostojic are not that close as you and Ostojic are.
Therefore i would conclude that only you and Ostojic fall into same group, and these that are at similar or lower distance if there is any.

 

[Mercurial]

Yeah, I was resting on the assumption that 15-20 is typical for Bulgars, as you've said. Novo Selo is not approximately 80 km from Podunavski okrug, there is at least 200km, but still, I see your point. I was alluding to pre-Krici period for Sarakatsani. Well I thought it made sense, it fit well with everything I read and knew about migration of my ancestors. I guess we'll never know why they call us Greeks x)

Thanks for the input!

 

[Dema]

There is few roads in between Podunavski Okrug and Novo Selo, but i measured air line, which would be 80 km. Which is not that really far away, also when you look at map. No probs, have fun.

 

[Mercurial]

It's 170km from the closest dot of Podunavski Okrug to Novo Selo.
https://imgur.com/a/uvvza5i Here's the picture.

There are many villages called Novo Selo in Serbia. I am referring to the one in the image, near Mlaciste...

 

[Mercurial]

Where do you find matches? Like Ostojic and that Hungarian? Someone told me that Ostojici are from Novi Glog (Vranjsko Pomoravlje), and not Podunavski okrug.

 

[Dema]

Where do you find matches? Like Ostojic and that Hungarian? Someone told me that Ostojici are from Novi Glog (Vranjsko Pomoravlje), and not Podunavski okrug.

They are both in official FTDNA J2-M172 project where most of J2 are. Me included. He stated as his ancestral surname to be Ostojic, maybe its not his modern surname.
I dont know. Also as i already said he did bigY and you can see he uploaded to Yfull when you put mouse over his sample it says location: Serbia, Podunavski Okrug - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/
It would be best if you contact Petar Demic as he seems fair guy when explaining things, also i am sure that he will know the answers to your questions.

 

[Dema]

nvm i repost tomorrow with better pics

 

[Dema]

As i said yesterday, there is new feature available in FTDNA for these that did BIG-Y test. Its called The Big Y Block Tree.

The Big Y Block Tree is a vertical-block diagram of the Y-DNA Haplotree showing the relationships between you and other Big Y testers. This tool helps you visualize how the paternal lineages of you and your matches are related to each other. You will also be able to see your matches’ branches and discover which autosomal origins and Paternal Countries of Origin have been reported for your branch and others. Please note that Big Y test is an exploratory test that is constantly discovering previously unknown SNPs. As new SNPs are discovered and added to the Y-DNA haplotree, this will alter the structure of the branches, and potentially move your branch further downstream. In addition, as more people test, it can help to refine SNPs currently thought to be equivalent to build an ever increasingly accurate SNP lineage. The Origins section is displayed at the top of the information card. This section displays the number of autosomal origins (myOrigins) related to that branch.

Basically we can look at Y-DNA phylogeny to understand it better also we can see autosomal components which are present at certain branches.
*Note that this takes into account only these that did BIG-Y + autosomal (family finder) test at FTDNA.

When looking at Y22066*/Y22059* and Y22063 sub-branches, its interesting because Southeast component is most prevailing.
Regarding Balkan and more specifically Montenegro in this case, Southeast represents Albanian or Paleo-Balkan autosomal components.
While East represents Slavic autosomal components. Its interesting to see even this sub-branch is currently made of 4 South-Slavs and 1 Albanian (all with 1200 ybp Montenegrin Y-DNA origin), Southeast component is most prevailing.

Also when looking J2-M205 generally Southeast is significant with 15 %, with Asia Minor being the same percentage.
This results could change as more people do autosomal (family finder test). It would be good if other members from Middle East and under designations PF7321 and M205, if they would also do autosomal tests to get more complete picture.

Just for compare and example, this is how situation stands within I2a-CTS10228* that we know is Slavic in origin and peaks in Bosnia and Hercegovina:

 

[Mercurial]

I did not respond to this comment since I still don't understand what all of this means and I don't have a lot of time to research. Is there a simpler explanation?

 

[Dema]

We got our first Saudi Arabian sample who is CTS1969 positive!
Looks like he upped the entire J2-M205 TMRCA to 6000 years together with CTS1969 TMRCA, also looks like he is basal CTS1969?

As it can be seen on Yfull he is from Mekkah, Saudi Arabia. Mashallah! https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

 

[Dema]

I did not respond to this comment since I still don't understand what all of this means and I don't have a lot of time to research. Is there a simpler explanation?

Have you done autosomal family finder test? It analyses your complete DNA 2000 years back. After 2.0 update things in Balkan regarding Albanian and Slavic populations are very clear.
East Europe component represents Slavic autosomal DNA, while Southeast Albanian one.

So we can take a extra peak into peoples autosomal results these way, partially at least to get somewhat of idea. For example if there is German into some branch and he scores 100 % West and Central Europe, and there is also Polish guy into a same branch and he scores 100 % East Europe in autosomal test. When they both do bigY test, their branch will be represented as 50 % West and Central Europe and 50 % East Europe by autosomal components.
Now as you can see on pictures above, there is actually branch I2a-S20602 where there is only one German and one Polish guy that have done familyfinder + bigY at FTDNA. So by their results, when you look on picture above, they partially score West and Central Europe, East Europe, and small percentage of Southeast Europe. Now when we look at that branch on Yfull, we can see that there is also plenty of Greeks and some Bulgars, Lithuanians, so if they all would do bigY and familyfinder at FTDNA these results would change.


Look for family finder test at FTDNA you can get it for low as 30 $ when all coupons and holiday discounts are applied. Because in addition when you look for Y-dna relatives, its also interesting to see your autosomal relatives and components.

 

[Bachus]

Have you done autosomal family finder test? It analyses your complete DNA 2000 years back. After 2.0 update things in Balkan regarding Albanian and Slavic populations are very clear.
East Europe component represents Slavic autosomal DNA, while Southeast Albanian one.

So we can take a extra peak into peoples autosomal results these way, partially at least to get somewhat of idea. For example if there is German into some branch and he scores 100 % West and Central Europe, and there is also Polish guy into a same branch and he scores 100 % East Europe in autosomal test. When they both do bigY test, their branch will be represented as 50 % West and Central Europe and 50 % East Europe by autosomal components.
Now as you can see on pictures above, there is actually branch I2a-S20602 where there is only one German and one Polish guy that have done familyfinder + bigY at FTDNA. So by their results, when you look on picture above, they partially score West and Central Europe, East Europe, and small percentage of Southeast Europe. Now when we look at that branch on Yfull, we can see that there is also plenty of Greeks and some Bulgars, Lithuanians, so if they all would do bigY and familyfinder at FTDNA these results would change.


Look for family finder test at FTDNA you can get it for low as 30 $ when all coupons and holiday discounts are applied. Because in addition when you look for Y-dna relatives, its also interesting to see your autosomal relatives and components.

Family finder is commercial bs.
The best autosomal calculator is Eurogenes K13.

This is average Eurogenes K13 of 23 tested Serbs from various regions.

The highest Baltic score of these 23 Serbs have one Serb from Lika (I2-PH908) 33.79%.
On the second place is Serb from Banija (I2-PH908) with 33.25% Baltic.

 

[Dema]

Family finder is commercial bs.

The best autosomal calculator is Eurogenes K13..

Who have told you this? Its not true. Have you done autosomal test? Family Finder is just one of tests offered by FTDNA. Family Finder then branches out into Matches, Chromosome Browser, Linked Relationships, myOrigins, ancientOrigins, and Wellness Report categories. Family finder also includes a labaratory DNA testing of your sample and provides you with raw data. What you wanted to say is probably about myOrigins category under Family Finder test. Its true that myOrigins is just a calculator, but with all due respect, out of all actual testing companies FTDNAs myOrigin is for sure most precize and well updated calculator. Currently myOrigin is very precize regarding Balkans and i would for sure take it into consideration.

The Eurogenes K13 is only one of free calculators offered by Gedmatch (free open data personal genomics database). Not an actual testing company. You can upload your raw data from Family Finder into Gedmatch to see how other calculators react on your raw data. There is plenty of useful and good calculators offered by Gedmatch and not only K13. There is newer calculator under Eurogenes project Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15. Then there are K9, K12, K36.
Also try MDLP K16 Modern, MDLP K23b, puntDNAL K10 Ancient, puntDNAL K12 Modern, puntDNAL K13 Global, puntDNAL K15, Ancient Eurasia K6, Gedrosia K3.
I have already run all these calculators and Albanians have actually mapped themselves long ago on K15 DNA map.
Also i would suggest uploading raw data to DNA Land as they also offer very interesting calculation for free. And dont only look at components that Gedmatch calculators displays but also look at population similarities and genetic distance from various populations.

It is important to understand difference between testing company and various calculators that work based on raw data produced by testing laboratories.

Gedmatch K13 is for sure good calculator but far away from being perfect or best. All of calculators work based on similarity and when realistically looking at all these calculators FTDNAs myOrigin is without doubt one of most accurate calculators out there. Then of course for more advance approach or some precise targeted area its good to run specific Gedmatch calculators.

This is few of Albanians from DNA community on Gedmatch K15 Eurogenes pca plotting map made long time ago:

 

[hrvat22]

How much I follow public DNA base for J2b M205 it is interesting that Albanians this branch does not have much. This branch is located in the area of Croatia where Vlachs are coming and it is very likely that comes from direction of Bulgaria or Serbia.

J2b M205 probably has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs but considering that Albanians have M205 less it is possible that this is a Bulgarian Vlach connection which would go from direction of Bulgaria possibly Romania through Serbia to the Croatia bypassing Albania, but it's strange that J2b M205 in Albanians is not in higher percentage considering that this is still a Balkan branch and they had to mix if they lived as neighbors(Albania-Bulgaria etc).