J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

How much I follow public DNA base for J2b M205 it is interesting that Albanians this branch does not have much. This branch is located in the area of Croatia where Vlachs are coming and it is very likely that comes from direction of Bulgaria or Serbia.

J2-M205 is classic Mediterranean and Proto-Semitic Cannanite haplogroup. We know that it is not Slavic in origin neither it arrived here with 7 century Early Slavs so it is pointless to even mention it.

Most spread branch in Balkan is one where i also fall in, Y22059. It is found among Krajina Croatian and Bosnian Serbs, but much rarer at Croats or Muslim Bosnjaks, and no existent in Slovenia.
Also at near Montenegro Serbia Serbs and at Montenegrins from Montenegro. With Serbs testing different Krici/Kricka related surnames they all turned out J2-M205>Y22059* therefore that is why we have basis to claim that Krici tribe was Y22059 dominant. Kriçi are 12 century early North Montenegrin tribe that everyone recorded as none Slavic natives. Also all of us falling in Y22059 clade have TMRCA around 1200 years, 1000 at a moment by Yfull. Which still goes in tribal time when Kriçi tribe was expanding or not much earlier. Montenegrins assimilated Kriçi into Montenegrin therefore Serb ethnos along side majority of that extraordinary Montenegrin 30 % of E-v13 and clades like J2b2, R1b and few others.

But there is multiple different branches of M205 in Balkans and more specifically in Albania, Greece, Italy, France, England, Cyprus, Lebanon and so on where most of branches have separation time 5000 - 6000 years one from another.
M205 is old Mediterranean haplogroup and even tho some Serbs were lying that its none existent among Albanians, after i went thru some studies i found Albanian samples exactly in studies where they claimed that there is none, one of them is my Y-DNA relative N Novakovic, Serbian administrator who lied about these things but when i arrived on lvl to double check his work analyzing STRs in studies where he claimed that there is no Albanians i managed to find them.

J2b M205 probably has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs but considering that Albanians have M205 less it is possible that this is a Bulgarian Vlach connection which would go from direction of Bulgaria possibly Romania through Serbia to the Croatia bypassing Albania, but it's strange that J2b M205 in Albanians is not in higher percentage considering that this is still a Balkan branch and they had to mix if they lived as neighbors(Albania-Bulgaria etc).

J2-M205 is a bit lower at Albanians then it supposed to be, but actually when comparing Italians, Greeks, Spaniards and so on, J2-M205 is just solid in Albania.
I have managed to find 10 Albanians so far, we have 4 different branches and TMRCA 6000 years. Our branch Y22059 included and its nothing special in comparing to other Mediterranean M205 branches.

Serbs have abnormal presence of M205, only because of assimilation of one complete developed Montenegrin tribe, which their TMRCA also shows, 1000 years.
Same as they did with Vasojevici, another Montenegrin E-v13 tribe and its clade is also missing among Albanians, but we have found it finally and looks like it separated about 800 years earlier then Vasojevici and Croatian clades combined.

Origin of M205 is not Bulgaria neither they have percentage neither variations, but rather all Mediterranean countries where it peaks at Cyprus. Ancient DNA is from 2500 BCE Jordan and 1700 BCE Lebanon Sidon.
We have one Branch of M205 that has spread from Lebanon Palestine all south to Oman and Yemen, incl some Mumbai Jews.


Best candidates for spread of M205 on Mediterranean Sea are Phoenicians because we clearly have Phoenician 1700 BCE Sidon ancient DNA and most of branches are for thousands of years one from another. Exception for few branches like Spanish-Puerto Rico branch that shares TMRCA with Palestine and Saudis 2000 years so we could speculate about Roman migration, most of branches are much older.
 

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172?iframe=ymap

J2-M172 Project shows that J2b M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066 Balkan cluster have Croatian Serbs, Serbians and Bulgarians, considering that for Croatian and Bosnian Serbs exist historical data and that they migrated from somewhere excludes possibility that this Balkan cluster have origin in Croatia, since some Romanian Vlachs possible also Bulgarian are also mentioned in writing that come to Croatia possibly that this is part of that genetics, it is possible that some of these Vlachs also going towards Albania.

We need to know the Vlachs coming from all sides to Croatia and someone (Vlachs from Bulgaria, Romania) goes and to Albania, Greece etc. Not all Vlachs coming from direction of Albania, Macedonia, Greece to Croatia because the Romanians and Bulgarians are also mentioned in Croatia at least linguistically. This is and logic because it does not only Albanians escape from Turks and others fleeing.

In my opinion this is a Bulgarian conection, but as I said in the future we will know more concretely.
 
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172?iframe=ymap

J2-M172 Project shows that J2b M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066 Balkan cluster have Croatian Serbs, Serbians and Bulgarians, considering that for Croatian and Bosnian Serbs exist historical data and that they migrated from somewhere excludes possibility that this Balkan cluster have origin in Croatia, since some Romanian Vlachs possible also Bulgarian are also mentioned in writing that come to Croatia possibly that this is part of that genetics, it is possible that some of these Vlachs also going towards Albania.

Yes this is true that we have few Bulgarian, Romanian, even ethnic Croat or Muslim Bosnjak samples inside of this clade. But by my free judgment Serbs must have over 80 or 90 % of this subclade distribution. Which all again with its TMRCA 1000 years points out at Montenegrin Kriçi tribe. After slavicization they identified with Serbs because of their Orthodox religion just like big majority of Montenegrin and South Serb E-v13 did. I dont think M205>Y22059/Y22066 has anything to do with Vlachs and we cannot connect it with any Vlach group. But rather with Montenegrin native tribe of probably Illyrian origin if they were native to Montenegro and managed to expand so well. But of course going more further back in history, of probably Phoenician Semitic origin. I was considering this Vlach theory long ago but simply it does not hold water. You can read many pages back, i was considering Byzantine arrival theory from Middle East in 10 century CE, but i dropped down all these theories since with gaining more experience i realized that i was foolish.

We need to know the Vlachs coming from all sides to Croatia and someone (Vlachs from Bulgaria, Romania) goes and to Albania, Greece etc. Not all Vlachs coming from direction of Albania, Macedonia, Greece to Croatia because the Romanians and Bulgarians are also mentioned in Croatia at least linguistically. This is and logic because it does not only Albanians escape from Turks and others fleeing.

In my opinion this is a Bulgarian connection, but as I said in the future we will know more concretely.

J2-M205 is none existent in Vlachs, as i went thru Bosch et al 2006 major Vlach/Aromun study. M205 is connected with Proto-Semites, Mediterraneans, and Canaanites.

They tested Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romanians from Constanta, Romanians from Ploiesti, Aromuns from Dukasi in Albania, Aromuns from Andon Poci in Albania, Aromuns from Krusevo in Macedonia, Aromuns from the Stip region in Macedonia and Aromuns from Romania.

The only two J2-M205 samples from this study were found in Albania. One at Aromun in Andon Poçi and another one at Albanian in Tirana.

We have plenty of J2-M205 in Greece, and more south but none at Aromuns/Vlachs or their groups.
 
Regarding Croatian and Bosnian so called "Vlachs", in fact today Orthodox Serbs. There is no doubt that they were recorded as such, and that they are a bit genetically different from their Croatian, Bosnian Muslim/Catholic, Slovenian and so on neighbours, but mostly in higher percentage of E-v13 haplogroup which is regularly in these areas accompanied with J2-M205 haplogroup. I would use these two signals as most important one to differentiate them. But of course there are also other haplogroups in smaller percentage like J2b2 and R1b.


So regarding J2-M205 but probably also many clades of E-v13 like also found E-v13>Y30991, we can connect them with native Balkan people of Montenegro South Serbia population rather then with Vlachs.


Bosch et al 2006, which did a wonderful work studying Vlachs proved that they are just standard Balkan population, only a bit isolated.
They are mostly Latinised remains of Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Greeks with also later Slavic influence mostly noticeable in I2a-CTS10228 and R1a haplogroups.
 
Regarding Croatian and Bosnian so called "Vlachs", in fact today Orthodox Serbs. There is no doubt that they were recorded as such, and that they are a bit genetically different from their Croatian, Bosnian Muslim/Catholic, Slovenian and so on neighbours, but mostly in higher percentage of E-v13 haplogroup which is regularly in these areas accompanied with J2-M205 haplogroup. I would use these two signals as most important one to differentiate them. But of course there are also other haplogroups in smaller percentage like J2b2 and R1b.


So regarding J2-M205 but probably also many clades of E-v13 like also found E-v13>Y30991, we can connect them with native Balkan people of Montenegro South Serbia population rather then with Vlachs.


Bosch et al 2006, which did a wonderful work studying Vlachs proved that they are just standard Balkan population, only a bit isolated.
They are mostly Latinised remains of Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Greeks with also later Slavic influence mostly noticeable in I2a-CTS10228 and R1a haplogroups.

Kriči tribe are tiny minority among Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia. They joined to I2a and R1a Serbian Slavic majority, like you ancestors joined to Albanians.

Here is Dalmatian Serb y dna:
I2a-Din - 39%
I1 - 24%
E-V13 - 13%
R1a - 8%
J2b - 6%
N - 4%
J1 - 4%
R1b - 3%
[video]https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?280270-Dalmatian-serb-Y-dna[/video]

Kriči are only 6% among Dalmatian Serbs.


K15 Eurogenes of full Dalmatian Serb (I2-PH908).

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 19.04
2 Baltic 18.7
3 North_Sea 17.96
4 Eastern_Euro 12.11
5 East_Med 10.61
6 West_Med 10.37
7 West_Asian 7.21
8 Red_Sea 3.52
9 South_Asian 0.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance:
1 Serbian 4.26
2 Austrian 5.88
3 Croatian 6.36
4 Romanian 6.71
5 Hungarian 6.92
6 Moldavian 7.03
7 Bulgarian 9.26
8 East_German 10.65
9 South_Polish 12.58
10 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.66
11 Ukrainian 13.62
12 Polish 14.87
13 Russian_Smolensk 15.56
14 South_Dutch 15.63
15 French 16.11
16 Ukrainian_Belgorod 16.33
17 West_German 16.73
18 Southwest_Russian 16.73
19 Greek_Thessaly 16.81
20 Southwest_Finnish 16.99

You cheep propaganda is debunked!
 
My samples from BigY (top) and Dante Labs (bottom):

9cd2d72ce6a1524579a18687ed7b2151.jpg
 
Dante's results are better. I've checked J-CTS1969 in YSEQ. It's negative. So, I am J-PF7321*.

I'm waiting for results from Big Y-700. And I've ordered Dante Labs Long Read test.
 
Krajina Serb from Banija (I2-PH908) from Dvor na Uni, K15 map and K36 map.

v6uFZFT.png


mJ4SS9v.png


He is the closest to Austrians on K15 Eurogenes and to Slovenians on K36.

More details about results of this Krajina Banija Serb are here on page 15 [video]https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277615-Krajina-Serb-(from-Banija)-results&p=5887747&viewfull=1#post5887747[/video]
 
My samples from BigY (top) and Dante Labs (bottom):

9cd2d72ce6a1524579a18687ed7b2151.jpg
Very good, yes i realized that this might also be your result. But i thought that its from bigY-500 to bigY-700 upgrade. Looks like Dante had better coverage and now you are confirmed PF7231*, what are your closest relatives STR wise, do you get any Ukraine closer match? Did you find these Ukraine J2b1s from public studies and compare your markes to them, they probably fall in your cluster

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Here is my neighborhood by 111 Y-STR markers (my sample in red):

0865b388915164b0400e5782475d065c.jpg
 
Yes. Dante is better than old Big Y.
0.11% non-read (Dante Labs) VS 2.4% (Big Y-500).
 
@ Dema

Are coward to answer me why Dalmatian Serbs have 63% I and 77% northern y dna (I2a, I1, R1a and N), and only 6% J2b if they are Vlachs?

Are you coward to answer me why Banija Serb up ploting close to Austruans and Dalmatian Serb got Austrians on the second places if they are Vlachs?
 
Kriči tribe are tiny minority among Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia. They joined to I2a and R1a Serbian Slavic majority, like you ancestors joined to Albanians.

You cheep propaganda is debunked!

J2-M205 is micro haplogroup and is minority and low percentage everywhere in the world.

That is even better for tracking it down.

I never said that J2-M205 is majority in Krajina but rather i said something else, 8 don't want to repeat. Is there anything that you don't agree with me?

I said that they are not Vlachs, read again.

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J2-M205 is micro haplogroup and is minority and low percentage everywhere in the world.

That is even better for tracking it down.

I never said that J2-M205 is majority in Krajina but rather i said something else, 8 don't want to repeat. Is there anything that you don't agree with me?

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Dalmatian Serbs are 6% J2b, Lika Serbs are around 15% J2b, Kordun Serbs are 2% J2b, Banija Serbs are 7-8% J2b, Slavonian Serbs are 2% J2b.

Lika is not whole Krajina.
In Lika before 1991 lived about 55 000 Serbs, in Dalmatia lived around 130 000 Serbs, in Banija over 80 000... Lika was region in Krajina with lowest number of Serbs.
Lika Serbs have higher J2b than other Krajina Serbs due to genetic drift. Lika Serbs also have higher R1a and lower I2a than other Krajina Serbs.
 
Dalmatian Serbs are 6% J2b, Lika Serbs are around 15% J2b, Kordun Serbs are 2% J2b, Banija Serbs are 7-8% J2b, Slavonian Serbs are 2% J2b.

Lika is not whole Krajina.
In Lika before 1991 lived about 55 000 Serbs, in Dalmatia lived around 130 000 Serbs, in Banija over 80 000... Lika was region in Krajina with lowest number of Serbs.
Lika Serbs have higher J2b than other Krajina Serbs due to genetic drift. Lika Serbs also have higher R1a and lower I2a than other Krajina Serbs.
I dont understand your point, God why i have to type it again. I said that Croatian and Bosnian so called Vlachs, or rather today Serbs are mostly notable by their higher E-v13 and J2-M205 haplogroups in compare to their South Slavic neighbours. Furthermore i said that J2-M205 is none existent among Vlachs also that they are rather slavicized natives rather then Vlachs.


Also i said about Vlachs that they are just latinized Balkan natives with later Slavic influence rather then being related to Middle Easterners or Italians.


Pls dont post rows of autosomal results as that is not important here and i dont see why are you posting autosomal stuff now.

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They joined to I2a and R1a Serbian Slavic majority, like you ancestors joined to Albanians.

We dont know what language Kriçi spoken. They were recorded as none Slavic Montenegrin tribe, its very possible they spoken Albanian language.

So there is no proof that my ancestors joined Albanians. We could have been here since Phoenician time and joined Illyrian ethnos. Its possible when looking at genetics. Only Serbs know 100 % they joined recently but not me since language Kriçi spoken was 100 % not Serbian. Being Montenegrin native tribe, it does not need rocket scientist to conclude they were close to Albanians or even Albanians themselves.



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@ Dema

They don't have higher E-V13.
Krajina Serbs have lower E-V13 than Serbian average, Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins. Regions where Serbs have higher E-V13 than Serbian average are Montenegro, Shopluk (southeastern Serbia), Kosovo and Banat.
Dalmatian Serbs have 13% E-V13, Kordun Serbs have 9% E-V13, Lika Serbs have 11-12% E-V13. On the other hand Croatians on average have about 10% E-V13, and Bosniaks from Bosnia have 11.2% E-V13 on average [video]https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?253441-Bosnian-Muslim-Y-DNA-results-(273-sample)[/video]
Sandžakian Bosniaks have over 35% E-V13.

Krajina Serbs are pred. Slavic genetically.

K15 Mixed Mode of Dalmatian Serb whose results I posted up:
1 58.7% Polish + 41.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 1.86
2 50.9% Belarrusian + 49.1% Tuscan @ 2.01
3 54.3% Russian_Smolensk + 45.7% Tuscan 2.11

K13 Mixed Mode of Serb from Lika:
1 93.4% Moldavian + 6.6% Sardinian @ 3.52
2 60.5% Ukrainian + 39.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.89
3 67.8% Ukrainian + 32.2% Central_Greek @ 4.09
 
I am not so sure. I think TMRCA is about 2500-3000 ybp.

I have just one 12 marker match. That's all.
 
@ Dema

Are coward to answer me why Dalmatian Serbs have 63% I and 77% northern y dna (I2a, I1, R1a and N), and only 6% J2b if they are Vlachs?

Are you coward to answer me why Banija Serb up ploting close to Austruans and Dalmatian Serb got Austrians on the second places if they are Vlachs?

There is no scientific paper that says which genetics Croatian Serbians have and in which percentage so your data is not relevant.

We do not know whose genetics you're exposing, as well you do not know history of Serbians in Croatia and Bosnia and for that reason your claims are incorrect.

In Croatia part of population also crossing to Orthodoxy, in writing Vlachs are mentioned which have nothing to do with Serbians so this must be a fundamental fact in your presentation.

We are talking about original genetics and we can not use recent history because Orthodox(Vlachs, Croatians etc) have become Serbs and Catholics(Vlachs) become Croats. We must use original historical data which speaks about origin of that population as well respecting some facts from the past ( transition to Orthodoxy in the Turkish period).
 

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