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Thread: J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

  1. #326
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205 > YP-13
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    My dante labs sample just got posted on yfull Analysis still in progress

    It's the first palestinian sample under YP-13 and currently labeled YP-13*

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnguth View Post
    I suppose J2 arrived here through greek people during the byzantine period, is this right?

    This was theory i made long ago and i gave up from it after realizing situation better and learning new finds. It was theory based mostly on TMRCA of one subclade (Y22066/Y22059 Balkan cluster). But as it turns out Y22066 has very early separation from its brother clades in Middle East and Mediterranean Europe, up to 5000 years. Therefore it is most likely expansion happened much earlier, perhaps in Bronze Age. It is typical situation for Balkan branches to have similar TMRCA so this is nothing out of ordinary and i made a mistake thinking that TMRCA of particular sublcade tells its arrival time.

    There is no proof for any J2-M205 subclade that expanded in Byzantine period. There is South Italy sample which shares TMRCA with Yemen sample in isolated branch 2000 ybp, so perhaps it is Roman time expansion, but other then that most of subclades seem to expand much earlier since we can find J2-M205 along Mediterranean Sea in multiple subclades that separated one from another in timeframe of 5000 - 6000 ybp, so everything looks like Early Bronze Age expansion from direction of Middle East.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnguth View Post
    Is j2b1 connected to people like the Assyrian or Carthaginians or Hittites, and through them it arrived in Anatolia and Greece?
    No doubt about Phoenicians since Canaanite sample in ancient Sidon 1700 BCE was J2-M205. Also nearby Jordanian mountain sample 2500 - 2000 BCE was J2-M205.
    So far i consider it Proto-Semitic with its main expansion in Middle East, TMRCA 5700 ybp.

    There is hope for Akkadians and Sumerians, lets see in future : ) But even the ancient Jordanian M205 sample goes strait into early Akkadian period.

    It would be helpful if you would do WGS test and upload to Yfull tree. There is at least 4 different M205 branches in Italy. Even my Balkan subclade is identified in parts of Northern Italy. After WGS test we will have better idea about your specific branch, but no matter the subclade there is no doubt that you share same ancestor with all M205 samples in timeframe of 5700 ybp.

  3. #328
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

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    Quote Originally Posted by dnainte View Post
    My dante labs sample just got posted on yfull Analysis still in progress

    It's the first palestinian sample under YP-13 and currently labeled YP-13*
    Very good. As it looks there is high diversity of J2-M205 among Palestinians, and so far all of them belong to CTS1969.
    CTS1969 is typical for Middle East and Europe.


    Your specific branch M205>YP13* looks like Phoenician line that expanded from territory of Middle East to Sardinia and all the way to England where your Yfull relatives are. TMRCA 5700 years.
    Last edited by Dema; 21-09-19 at 16:56.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Thank you Dema for all the info I've been lurking for a while and following all discussions even the heated Albanian ones

    My ancestors are olive farmers and very close to the coast so the Sardinian and English relatives make sense, as you mentioned.

    For what it's worth and this is only oral info, 500 years ago the other half of my ancestors' tribe were residing in northern Hijaz.

    In any case, I'm looking forward for what the coming days and 2020 will unveil

  5. #330
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Very interestingly we got few new samples on Yfull, like Egypt, Iraq, Saudi. I will wait for another Albanian sample and then give another full analysis of all branches.
    It would be good if Greece and Cyprus would do WGS tests and upload on Yfull, so we can get more complete picture.

    Also our French sample sadly didnt upload to Yfull after doing WGS test, which would be very helpful.

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    Country: Albania



    Can you add more middle eastern to your map, it is definitely out of date. The almost complete lack of j2b m205 in albanians yet j2b-l283 being strong shows that it is foreign for the country and probably recent, also it seems there are more south albanians (~1%) with this than north albanians (almost non existant) yet north albanians have much more l283 than south albanians.

    The big amount (still minor) in serbia is interesting, as well as Bosnia, Croatia and Greece

  7. #332
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    You again


    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Can you add more middle eastern to your map, it is definitely out of date.
    To who are you talking to? If to Maciamo then i agree with you. Middle East should definitively be entire painted with at least 1 % of J2b-M205, as i already gave references in another thread about countries in Middle East. Also Balkan is over painted, its not like that in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    The almost complete lack of j2b m205 in albanians yet j2b-l283 being strong shows that it is foreign for the country and probably recent, also it seems there are more south albanians (~1%) with this than north albanians (almost non existant) yet north albanians have much more l283 than south albanians.

    You do understand that more then 95 % of Albanian J2b-L283 falls under PH1751 with TMRCA 1200 years, do you? Therefore percentage is not that important as obvious expansion happened in Middle Ages of Common Era. J2-M205 is considered native for Mediterranean Sea, and Albania is also part of it. However since J2-L283 is considered Illyrian (Indo-European distant origin), and J2-M205 Phoenician (Semitic distant origin), they most likely achieved first contact somewhere in Mediterranean Sea in timeframe of 1500 - 500 BCE.

    J2-M205 is micro haplogroup meaning it does not reach high percentage anywhere in the world. So if we are going by this logic then i guess M205 is not native to Earth at all since wherever we look there are haplogroups with higher percentage then M205.... I hope you do realize how silly you sound..

    Do you know that both Greek and Latin alphabets have origin in Phoenician (Semitic) one?
    Are you aware that Phoenicians owned and controlled most of Mediterranean Sea since 1500 BC until the Punic Wars (200 BC) ? Also had colonies in Greece, N Africa, Spain, Sicily, Sardinia, and they sailed all the way to England?

    Do you realize that wheel invention, agro culture knowledge, and civilization (including modern alphabet and religions) come from Middle East?
    Do you realize that both Greeks and Romans copied Phoenician ship models?
    Do you know that J2b-M205 has 1700 BCE ancient DNA found in Sidon which was one of primary Phoenician city/states?

    So, if you are literate to begin with, you were most likely influenced by J2b-M205 in the first Millennium BCE.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet#Origins
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet#Origins

    Lack of J2-M205 among Albanians would be extremely unusual since we find it in almost all Mediterranean populations.
    However its not like that. Albanian project will soon have around 1 % of J2-M205 (which is usual ratio for this haplogroup), and as it looks so far we have high diversity of J2-M205 among Albanians. Because even tho i know only for about 12 Albanian samples, we can identify 4 different branches among these samples that separated for around 6000 years one from another. Also in Albania we can find J2-M205 from North to the South in these various branches.


    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    The big amount (still minor) in serbia is interesting, as well as Bosnia, Croatia
    Indeed, it all belongs to one more northern branch Y22059/Y22066 TMRCA 1000 years, which is connected to pre-Slavic Montenegrin early tribe from 12 century (Kriçi). Most likely with Albanian origin. In Montenegro we can also find lots of Albanian haplogroups like 30 % of E-v13 which is extremely unusual percentage of E-v13 for South Slavs but also for Slavs in general. In compare to Slovenia with 3 % of E-v13 and 0 % of J2-M205, Serbs/Montenegrins have about 10x higher these percentages which clearly indicates they are most likely of Albanian origin (even supported by most clades). J2-M205 in South Slavs is result of slavicization of their territories, just as majority of that E-v13, J2b-L283 and R1b.

    Wherever we find J2-M205 in higher percentages in South Slavs we also find there very high percentage of E-v13 which tells they might have live together once, for example in Montenegro.


    Now excuse me, seems like there were some major changes happened in J2-M205 Yfull tree i want to post about.

  8. #333
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    This branch(J2-M205) seems to bypass Albanian area and Albanians in a higher percentage.
    Possibly this is migration of Vlachs from direction of Bulgaria or Romania to Bosnia and Croatia.

    I've talked about this before, for now YFull tree does not shows mutations with a source in the Albanian area nor in Montenegro. Unfortunately Bulgarian mutations(Y22059) are not on the YFull tree, so we cannot prove this direction of migration either, but this branch is more widespread there (Bulgaria).

  9. #334
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    This branch(J2-M205) seems to bypass Albanian area and Albanians in a higher percentage.
    What branch? All branches are under J2-M205. Do you mean Y22059 that you wrote below?
    Read my upper post, stop posting nonsense. Albanians have J2-M205 from North to South in multiple branches, including Y22059.


    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Possibly this is migration of Vlachs from direction of Bulgaria or Romania to Bosnia and Croatia.
    Balkan Vlachs (including Albanian Vlachs, Serbian Vlachs, Romanian Vlachs, Greece Vlachs) have been already tested. Also there was also major Aromun/Vlach study (Bosch et al 2006). In entire Bosch et al 2006 there was only one Vlach J2-M205 sample and he was from Albania. Also his only relative is Albanian from Albania, also Greek and Sicilian. J2-M205 has no connection whatsoever to Vlachs but to Early Civilizations of Mesopotamia.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I've talked about this before, for now YFull tree does not shows mutations with a source in the Albanian area nor in Montenegro. Unfortunately Bulgarian mutations(Y22059) are not on the YFull tree, so we cannot prove this direction of migration either, but this branch is more widespread there (Bulgaria).

    Bulgarians have very few samples of J2-M205, also J2-M205>Y22059. It is really insignificant in Bulgaria. Also Bulgaria was melting point of many populations so even if we find it there it has no big meaning. Its still a Balkan.

    Y22059 neither J2-M205 is not more widespread in Bulgaria. Dont speak nonsense and misinformation.


    Y22059/Y22066 is M205+, PF7321+, CTS1969+, YP51+ with closest relatives in Middle East and Mediterranean Europe but with separation time about 5000 years before present.


    Y22

  10. #335
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Incredibly, looks like our Palestine Jenin and Saudi samples had very big impact on Yfull TMRCA calculations!
    Some samples are still under process and some are still missing within calculation so i think we should wait some time for everything to finish.
    But as it looks for now, samples under CTS1969 upped the entire TMRCA from 5700 years to 8300 years.
    Also CTS1969 now has formed date 8300 years and TMRCA 8300 years.
    This is very very significant change within the J2-M205 and reveals the picture even further.


    J2-M205 TMRCA is now very close to first farmer Neolithic sample from Zagros - Tepe Abdol Husain (J2b-M12* 19001, skeleton #1, sample AH2)


    So far situation is something like this:

    8000 BCE oldest J2b* ancient DNA, Zagros Tepe Abdul Hosein (first farmers).
    6300 BCE J2b-M205 TMRCA (settlements in Byblos then first irrigation and flood control in Mesopotamia).
    2500 BCE oldest J2b-M205 ancient DNA in Northwest Jordan Ain Ghazal.
    1700 BCE second oldest J2b-M205 ancient DNA in Sidon (Canaanite).
    700 BCE third oldest J2b-M205 ancient DNA sample in Egyptian mummy.

    I already have further theory about many branches, looks like second Albanian branch is tested in Dantelabs so it might take some time until it is uploaded to Yfull but we already know it is PF7321+ and CTS1969-. I will wait for it to be uploaded to Yfull and then give another opinion on all branches.

    So far situation is looking very interesting. Also if situation remains like this J2-M205 is not considered Proto-Semitic anymore but Pre-Semitic and also Pre-Sumerian. TMRCA 8300 years.

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    What branch? All branches are under J2-M205. Do you mean Y22059 that you wrote below?
    Read my upper post, stop posting nonsense. Albanians have J2-M205 from North to South in multiple branches, including Y22059.
    Yes and? Bulgarians and Romanians also have it.

    I'm talking about branch Y22059.

    Not all branches of J2, E1b, R1b in the Balkans are Albanian origin and originating in the Albanian area.

    If you have proof that branch Y22059 has source in Albania and Albanians then bring that evidence to the sun(I mean a 1000 year old mutation) and I will respect that. So far there is no such evidence and I have not seen it.


    Balkan Vlachs (including Albanian Vlachs, Serbian Vlachs, Romanian Vlachs, Greece Vlachs) have been already tested. Also there was also major Aromun/Vlach study (Bosch et al 2006). In entire Bosch et al 2006 there was only one Vlach J2-M205 sample and he was from Albania. Also his only relative is Albanian from Albania, also Greek and Sicilian. J2-M205 has no connection whatsoever to Vlachs but to Early Civilizations of Mesopotamia.
    Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia as well as some Croats, Bosniaks etc have branch Y22059 and they are also mentioned as Vlachs(historical records). That branch mostly have Serbs. Thus branch Y22059 have connection and with Vlachs.


    Bulgarians have very few samples of J2-M205, also J2-M205>Y22059. It is really insignificant in Bulgaria. Also Bulgaria was melting point of many populations so even if we find it there it has no big meaning. Its still a Balkan.
    I look at public data and so far there are most Bulgarians and people from Croatia with that branch.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...72?iframe=ymap

    For now these connection with Bulgaria exist, when more specific genetic data arrives in the future then we will make more accurate conclusion.

    Y22059 neither J2-M205 is not more widespread in Bulgaria. Dont speak nonsense and misinformation.
    Unfortunately i only have a public database and that is basis for my conclusions.

    Y22059/Y22066 is M205+, PF7321+, CTS1969+, YP51+ with closest relatives in Middle East and Mediterranean Europe but with separation time about 5000 years before present.
    I'm talking about migrations 500 or 300 years ago, I'm not talking about migration from Africa 100,000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post

    You do understand that more then 95 % of Albanian J2b-L283 falls under PH1751 with TMRCA 1200 years, do you? .
    I’m sorry but I have to call you out on how wrong you are. I would expect you to fact check on the group page before making a statement like that. Unless you have access to some information not publicly available to the group.

    j2b-L283 Albanians are not 95 percent PH1751. That is a false statement. One I mainly hear from Serbs trying to claim a lack of diversity in Albanians to disassociate their connection to Illyrians given the Proto-Illyrian J2b-L283. Of course I am not accusing you of this.

    If you would just do some basic math, out of the current 142 or AI samples only 72 of them are PH1751. Of course it is a monumental cluster that dominates. But you added 45 percent to that number which is completely false.

    there is quite a bit of diversity forming in Albanian J2b-L283. In fact, in an under sampled area such as Diber; every J2b-L283 has been unique. Many places remain untested.

    Sure we only have 800+ samples at the moment, but I wouldn’t try and reduce J2b-L283 in Albanians to some small young cluster lacking diversity. That’s simply not true.

    whilst your line is definitely diverse in Albanians thus far, there are only 3 clusters among 6 users.

    there’s far more diversity in J2b-L283 despite what you mentioned.

    http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    If you would just do some basic math, out of the current 142 or AI samples only 72 of them are PH1751. Of course it is a monumental cluster that dominates. But you added 45 percent to that number which is completely false.
    From what I see on our results document there are 159 samples that fall under L283, 77 of which are PH1751+. This would mean that ~48% of Albanian J-L283 is PH1751+. The second largest cluster is Y23094+ at ~17.6%. There are also other clades under Z631 and CTS11100 which are below 10%.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    From what I see on our results document there are 159 samples that fall under L283, 77 of which are PH1751+. This would mean that ~48% of Albanian J-L283 is PH1751+. The second largest cluster is Y23094+ at ~17.6%. There are also other clades under Z631 and CTS11100 which are below 10%.
    I don’t believe I have access to that list. Going off of Gjenetika it was roughly that so we are in the same ballpark. 95 percent though is grossly incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Yes and? Bulgarians and Romanians also have it.

    I'm talking about branch Y22059.
    You first said J2-M205, but even the Y22059 is part of M205 so i dont see what the big deal is.
    Y22059 is more northern branch of J2-M205, as majority of branches are more South, like Mediterranean Sea or Middle East.

    All Bulgarian samples seem to fall under Y22059, with specific DYS385 value 15-19. Meaning there is low variations of J2-M205 in Bulgaria since they all belong to same branch (Balkan cluster), and also they have low variations since they have similar STRs values.
    In central Balkan there is way higher percentage and variations of M205 in general but also of specific Y22059 branch then in both Bulgaria or Romania.

    In Romania J2-M205 is almost none existent. In FTDNA project there is only one sample and its in Y22059 branch.

    According to 3 different surnames, that are Kriçi related, they all turned out Y22059 branch, meaning that Kriçi tribe was most likely Y22059.
    Kriçi is 12 century Montenegrin none Slavic tribe. If they were Vlachs or if they spoken Latin, that would be known as Latin was famous language.
    What could they be if they were 12 century Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe ? Most likely of Illyrian/Albanian origin since there is not many options left.

    So Y22059 is identified within 12 century Montenegrin tribe, and its TMRCA is 1000 years. Therefore most likely it originates in Montenegro also, where is found in highest percentages and with highest variations in area of Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo and Southwest Serbia.

    They are of Albanian origin but slavicised. Also in Albania there is 4 different branches identified while Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia or Croatia have only Y22059 which is Illyrian/Albanian Montenegrin branch which we can find there because of slavicization of Montenegro and surrounding areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Not all branches of J2, E1b, R1b in the Balkans are Albanian origin and originating in the Albanian area.
    Almost all J2b-L283, and E-v13 in Montenegrins and Serbs is of Albanian origin. That can be easily seen even with subclades in Yfull where Montenegrins and Serbs share plenty of subclades or are direct brother clades to Albanians. Also all R1b-BY611 Montenegrins, Serbs or Croats are of Albanian origin.

    Same with J2b-Y22059, if its native Montenegrin then i dont see what else could it be then Albanian lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    If you have proof that branch Y22059 has source in Albania and Albanians then bring that evidence to the sun(I mean a 1000 year old mutation) and I will respect that. So far there is no such evidence and I have not seen it.
    We have Y22059 in Kosovo Albanians, Montenegro Albanians, and now recently in North Albanians from Shkodra that belong to Lohja tribe.
    Also Shkodra Lohja sample seems to have unique DYS385 and it would be interesting if he does bigY.

    As said Albanians have multiple branches of J2-M205, while in Serbia/Croatia/Montenegro its all Y22059 which is connected to Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe of most likely Albanian origin. presence of Y22059 in Croats, Serbs or Montenegrins is result of slavicization of their native territories and therefore of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia as well as some Croats, Bosniaks etc have branch Y22059 and they are also mentioned as Vlachs(historical records). That branch mostly have Serbs. Thus branch Y22059 have connection and with Vlachs.
    Yes, Serbs in Croatia (Krajina) and in Republika Srpska in Bosnia seem to have unusually high percentage of E-v13 and J2-M205 in compare to their Croat/Bosnjak/Slovene neighbors. Actually as far as i looked on subclades it seems as Croatian/Bosnian "Vlachs" are actually Albano/Illyrians in origin.
    It makes sense since they were recorded to arrive somewhere from South Serbia and Montenegro in 14 century to defend against Ottoman Empire.
    Here is one such a branch for example: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30991/

    So they dont fall in Vlach subclades, but actually in Albanian subclades : )

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I look at public data and so far there are most Bulgarians and people from Croatia with that branch.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...72?iframe=ymap

    For now these connection with Bulgaria exist, when more specific genetic data arrives in the future then we will make more accurate conclusion.
    In Croatia is mostly Serbs, even tho there is real Croats also. I explained to you in this post where and when they come from and what are they in origin.
    In Bulgaria is all expansion from Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe with 1000 years TMRCA. Also its only few samples with no variations. It has absolutely no connection to Turkic languages as Bulgar or Slavic as modern Bulgarian.

    Y22066 has its first relatives and is equal brother clade to subclades in Palestine, Iraq, Kuvait, Armenia, Greek from Turkey, France, England, Sardinia...

    They are separated 4900 years one from another but still closest relatives! Therefore Phoenician expansion makes much more sense then some Bulgarian or Romanian connection lol.


    I dont see why is there need to connect subclade to Romanians or Bulgarians when simply it has no connection to them. We can find Y22059 in Italy, Greece, Albania, Kosovo, Sweden, but still it all has origin in Pred-Slavic Montenegrin population from 1000 years ago. And prior to that origin is clear by looking on Yfull:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22075/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I’m sorry but I have to call you out on how wrong you are. I would expect you to fact check on the group page before making a statement like that. Unless you have access to some information not publicly available to the group.

    j2b-L283 Albanians are not 95 percent PH1751. That is a false statement. One I mainly hear from Serbs trying to claim a lack of diversity in Albanians to disassociate their connection to Illyrians given the Proto-Illyrian J2b-L283. Of course I am not accusing you of this.

    If you would just do some basic math, out of the current 142 or AI samples only 72 of them are PH1751. Of course it is a monumental cluster that dominates. But you added 45 percent to that number which is completely false

    there is quite a bit of diversity forming in Albanian J2b-L283. In fact, in an under sampled area such as Diber; every J2b-L283 has been unique. Many places remain untested.

    Sure we only have 800+ samples at the moment, but I wouldn’t try and reduce J2b-L283 in Albanians to some small young cluster lacking diversity. That’s simply not true.



    http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

    Well i am sure that PH1751 used to dominate way more before, there was few Hoti or unclassified samples but i believe it was way larger before in regard of percentage. However you are right, i didnt check statistics but i spoken out of a mind and as it seems few things have changed.

    Albanian L283 is definitively connected to ancient DNA found in Dalmatia therefore i dont see how someone like Serbs you mention is trying to disapprove its Illyrian origin.

    Anyways what i wanted to point is that percentage of some haplogroup does not tell how old it is. Even if its half of Albanian L283 it still expaned in only last 1200 years, so its valid example.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    whilst your line is definitely diverse in Albanians thus far, there are only 3 clusters among 6 users.

    there’s far more diversity in J2b-L283 despite what you mentioned.
    Actually J2-M205 has higher diversity among Albanians then J2-L283. Look in link you gave Y22066 samples are CTS1969+, while South Albanian samples are CTS1969-. CTS1969 is 8300 years old, therefore Albanian TMRCA of J2-M205 is 8300 years. While Albanian TMRCA of J2-L283 is 4900 years. Meaning Albanians belonging to J2-M205 have higher diversity then Albanians belonging to J2-L283.

    Also there is fourth cluster which is identified in Tirana in public studies but we still dont have it in project.

    But this is absolutely irrelevant since i think J2-L283 is older in Dalmatian coast, while J2-M205 expanded with Phoenicians or later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    From what I see on our results document there are 159 samples that fall under L283, 77 of which are PH1751+. This would mean that ~48% of Albanian J-L283 is PH1751+. The second largest cluster is Y23094+ at ~17.6%. There are also other clades under Z631 and CTS11100 which are below 10%.
    You miss about 25 % there. I think there is chance that many of unclassified L283 samples will turn out PH1751. In future PH1751 might be over 51 %.

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    You first said J2-M205, but even the Y22059 is part of M205 so i dont see what the big deal is.
    Y22059 is more northern branch of J2-M205, as majority of branches are more South, like Mediterranean Sea or Middle East.
    Where is source of that branch and where is the proof (which mutation)?

    All Bulgarian samples seem to fall under Y22059, with specific DYS385 value 15-19. Meaning there is low variations of J2-M205 in Bulgaria since they all belong to same branch (Balkan cluster), and also they have low variations since they have similar STRs values.
    In central Balkan there is way higher percentage and variations of M205 in general but also of specific Y22059 branch then in both Bulgaria or Romania.
    In Croatia exist that branch (Balkan cluster) and based on that I make conclusion.

    According to 3 different surnames, that are Kriçi related, they all turned out Y22059 branch, meaning that Kriçi tribe was most likely Y22059.
    Kriçi is 12 century Montenegrin none Slavic tribe. If they were Vlachs or if they spoken Latin, that would be known as Latin was famous language.
    What could they be if they were 12 century Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe ? Most likely of Illyrian/Albanian origin since there is not many options left.
    We don’t know it yet because we don’t know migration of Y22059 peoples in that area(Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania etc)

    So Y22059 is identified within 12 century Montenegrin tribe, and its TMRCA is 1000 years. Therefore most likely it originates in Montenegro also, where is found in highest percentages and with highest variations in area of Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo and Southwest Serbia.


    For now we have no evidence for that, if you have evidence show genetic data.

    They are of Albanian origin but slavicised. Also in Albania there is 4 different branches identified while Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia or Croatia have only Y22059 which is Illyrian/Albanian Montenegrin branch which we can find there because of slavicization of Montenegro and surrounding areas.
    If Albanians have 4 branches then these mutations must also exist in the Croatian Serbs, where they are?
    It is logical that this branch exist and migrate in that area( Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia or Croatia) if this branch only exist in that area.
    However, once when we find out migration path of that branch then we will know more precisely.

    In Bulgaria exist many branches of J2 haplotype so maybe source of this branch is there.

    Almost all J2b-L283, and E-v13 in Montenegrins and Serbs is of Albanian origin. That can be easily seen even with subclades in Yfull where Montenegrins and Serbs share plenty of subclades or are direct brother clades to Albanians. Also all R1b-BY611 Montenegrins, Serbs or Croats are of Albanian origin.
    No one has Albanian origin they have Vlachs origin, Albanians are not mentioned in Croatia at least not in large numbers. Whether these Vlachs were originally Albanian origin probable they are but not all, there are also migrations from Bulgaria, possibly other countries. Genetics will say that in the future.


    We have Y22059 in Kosovo Albanians, Montenegro Albanians, and now recently in North Albanians from Shkodra that belong to Lohja tribe.
    Also Shkodra Lohja sample seems to have unique DYS385 and it would be interesting if he does bigY.

    As said Albanians have multiple branches of J2-M205, while in Serbia/Croatia/Montenegro its all Y22059 which is connected to Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe of most likely Albanian origin. presence of Y22059 in Croats, Serbs or Montenegrins is result of slavicization of their native territories and therefore of them.
    Therefore you have no proof that branch Y22059 has its source in Albania.
    The fact that this branch exists in Albania does not mean that it could not have come from Bulgaria to Albania. Vlachs probably came from area of Bulgaria as well, otherwise in southern Serbia Bulgarians are also mentioned, they probably brought and some genetics.

    Yes, Serbs in Croatia (Krajina) and in Republika Srpska in Bosnia seem to have unusually high percentage of E-v13 and J2-M205 in compare to their Croat/Bosnjak/Slovene neighbors. Actually as far as i looked on subclades it seems as Croatian/Bosnian "Vlachs" are actually Albano/Illyrians in origin.
    Probably yes but for now branch Y22059 points more to the Bulgarian direction of migration.

    It makes sense since they were recorded to arrive somewhere from South Serbia and Montenegro in 14 century to defend against Ottoman Empire.
    They did not come to defend against Ottoman Empire, they come with Turks.

    So they dont fall in Vlach subclades, but actually in Albanian subclades : )
    Written records mention Vlachs, and originally they may be Albanians, Bulgarians etc, we will know this more accurately in the future, but for sure they are mostly original Albanians.

    In Croatia is mostly Serbs, even tho there is real Croats also. I explained to you in this post where and when they come from and what are they in origin.
    In Bulgaria is all expansion from Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe with 1000 years TMRCA. Also its only few samples with no variations. It has absolutely no connection to Turkic languages as Bulgar or Slavic as modern Bulgarian.
    First prove by written documents that someone migrates from Montenegro to Bulgaria, when you do it then I will answer.

    Y22066 has its first relatives and is equal brother clade to subclades in Palestine, Iraq, Kuvait, Armenia, Greek from Turkey, France, England, Sardinia...
    I'm interested in younger mutations this is old connection (formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp)

    They are separated 4900 years one from another but still closest relatives! Therefore Phoenician expansion makes much more sense then some Bulgarian or Romanian connection lol.
    We are talking about migration in the Turkish era.

    I dont see why is there need to connect subclade to Romanians or Bulgarians when simply it has no connection to them. We can find Y22059 in Italy, Greece, Albania, Kosovo, Sweden, but still it all has origin in Pred-Slavic Montenegrin population from 1000 years ago. And prior to that origin is clear by looking on Yfull:
    For now there is an older mutation in Serbia and Bosnia (TMRCA), so for now it would be reverse direction of migration. That's why i say we still have to wait.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 21-10-19 at 20:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You miss about 25 % there. I think there is chance that many of unclassified L283 samples will turn out PH1751. In future PH1751 might be over 51 %.
    I wasn't aiming to give a complete breakdown of the J-L283 percentages, only PH1751+ and Y23094+ which is why I gave a more precise percentage for them. Some of the unclassified samples may turn out to be PH1751+ but some may also turn out to be Y23094+ such as the cluster (L283>Cluster A) found in Eastern Albania and Western Macedonia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Well i am sure that PH1751 used to dominate way more before, there was few Hoti or unclassified samples but i believe it was way larger before in regard of percentage. However you are right, i didnt check statistics but i spoken out of a mind and as it seems few things have changed.

    Albanian L283 is definitively connected to ancient DNA found in Dalmatia therefore i dont see how someone like Serbs you mention is trying to disapprove its Illyrian origin.

    Anyways what i wanted to point is that percentage of some haplogroup does not tell how old it is. Even if its half of Albanian L283 it still expaned in only last 1200 years, so its valid example.




    Actually J2-M205 has higher diversity among Albanians then J2-L283. Look in link you gave Y22066 samples are CTS1969+, while South Albanian samples are CTS1969-. CTS1969 is 8300 years old, therefore Albanian TMRCA of J2-M205 is 8300 years. While Albanian TMRCA of J2-L283 is 4900 years. Meaning Albanians belonging to J2-M205 have higher diversity then Albanians belonging to J2-L283.

    Also there is fourth cluster which is identified in Tirana in public studies but we still dont have it in project.

    But this is absolutely irrelevant since i think J2-L283 is older in Dalmatian coast, while J2-M205 expanded with Phoenicians or later.

    I think you’re misconstruing how diverse it is and what that means in the way of Albanian ethnogenesis. Idk much about your lines origin. I’m not talking about ages of branches. We’re speaking of the false statement you made that there is little to no diversity and almost 100 percent PH1751.

    J2b-L283 is not only more prevalent but more diverse than your line in Albanians. Age has nothing to do with diversity. I believe diversity has more to do with the abundance of different clades of the same branch. Regardless of their ages. So yea some diversity in a small group of your line. This is not however more diverse and more pivotal to Albanians than J2b-L283 is overall. I have no idea where you pulled that idea from.

    If anything J1 in Albanians seems to be very diverse and forming a respectable 3% besides other minimal lineages, and can already see a breakdown of roughly 9-10 clusters, which shows an immense diversity for a small sample size.

    none of them date to the ottoman period either and likely all arrived between the Bronze and very early Middle Ages if I’m not mistaken. Il defer to Kelmendasi on that as I am sure he’s done more research on the lineage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    none of them date to the ottoman period either and likely all arrived between the Bronze and very early Middle Ages if I’m not mistaken. Il defer to Kelmendasi on that as I am sure he’s done more research on the lineage.
    Based on current data, the J1 clades found in Albanians seem to have primarily arrived between the Late Bronze Age and Byzantine Period. So you are correct. Majority fall under P58 which is a major clade under J1. The clades under P58 include Z1884 (Z1884>L829 and Z1884>FGC11) and Y3081 (ZS241). Both of these clusters are best associated with the Central Semitic branch of Semitic, this branch is comprised of the NW branch (Canaanite and Aramaic), Arabic and some extinct languages such as Amorite. Y3081 itself is best linked to Canaanite, especially Jews or Hebrew speakers. Z1884 has branches which can be linked to the Arabs (FGC11+) as well as branches that can be linked to the Phoenicians (L829+). Should be noted that FGC11 was found in a Bronze Age sample from Sidon, Lebanon, so it is Pre-Arabic. The Albanian L829 seems pretty unique and possibly arrived during the Late Bronze Age, my Y3081 is also pretty unique but I think it's most likely that it arrived after the Iron Age (Probably Roman or Hellenistic period).

    There is a clade that likely arrived during the Neolithic or earlier, this clade is J-Y19093 which is a CHG branch and comes from Y6305 which was found in Paleolithic Georgia. In Albanians so far it seems to be most common in Albanians from Malesi (Montenegro side). There are also clades under L620 and Z1828 which may have arrived during the Bronze Age or a little later.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I think you’re misconstruing how diverse it is and what that means in the way of Albanian ethnogenesis. Idk much about your lines origin. I’m not talking about ages of branches. We’re speaking of the false statement you made that there is little to no diversity and almost 100 percent PH1751.
    This is not true. You are now putting words into my mouth lol. I never mentioned L283 diversity but what i said is that more then 95 % of L283 is PH1751.
    Well, what i should have said is majority of Albanian L283 is PH1751. But if you read posts prior to that my argument is still valid even tho its not 95 % but 50 % and still majority. I know about Albanian L283 TMRCA, its 4400 years.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    J2b-L283 is not only more prevalent but more diverse than your line in Albanians. Age has nothing to do with diversity. I already mentioned there’s only 3 differences for 6 kits. So yea some diversity in a small group of your line. This is not however more diverse and more pivotal to Albanians than J2b-L283 is overall. I have no idea where you pulled that idea from.
    You are forcing that L283 is more diverse among Albanian while M205 has higher TMRCA, lol.
    If we have two group of organisms, and one group has TMRCA 8300 years, while another group has TMRCA 4400 years, which group is more diverse?

    Logic, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post

    If anything J1 in Albanians seems to be very diverse and forming a respectable 3% besides other minimal lineages, and can already see a breakdown of roughly 9-10 clusters, which shows an immense diversity for a small sample size.

    none of them date to the ottoman period either and likely all arrived between the Bronze and very early Middle Ages if I’m not mistaken. Il defer to Kelmendasi on that as I am sure he’s done more research on the lineage.

    J1 diversified since Paleolithic 18200 years ago, while J2-M205 8300 years ago.

    Also J1 is not on same level as J2-M205. J1 is on J2 level, while J2-M205 is in fact J2>M102>M205.

    Therefore we cant compare them at the same level, and J1 should definitively be compared and looked upon branch by branch.
    Anyways i dont see why you started to speak about J1 now out of the sky : ) This is J2 Eupedia forum section, J1 is debated in J1 section.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    This is not true. You are now putting words into my mouth lol. I never mentioned L283 diversity but what i said is that more then 95 % of L283 is PH1751.
    Well, what i should have said is majority of Albanian L283 is PH1751. But if you read posts prior to that my argument is still valid even tho its not 95 % but 50 % and still majority. I know about Albanian L283 TMRCA, its 4400 years.





    You are forcing that L283 is more diverse among Albanian while M205 has higher TMRCA, lol.
    If we have two group of organisms, and one group has TMRCA 8300 years, while another group has TMRCA 4400 years, which group is more diverse?

    Logic, no?




    J1 diversified since Paleolithic 18200 years ago, while J2-M205 8300 years ago.

    Also J1 is not on same level as J2-M205. J1 is on J2 level, while J2-M205 is in fact J2>M102>M205.

    Therefore we cant compare them at the same level, and J1 should definitively be compared and looked upon branch by branch.
    Anyways i dont see why you started to speak about J1 now out of the sky : ) This is J2 Eupedia forum section, J1 is debated in J1 section.
    Sorry about the off topic J1 post btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    This is not true. You are now putting words into my mouth lol. I never mentioned L283 diversity but what i said is that more then 95 % of L283 is PH1751.
    Well, what i should have said is majority of Albanian L283 is PH1751. But if you read posts prior to that my argument is still valid even tho its not 95 % but 50 % and still majority. I know about Albanian L283 TMRCA, its 4400 years.





    You are forcing that L283 is more diverse among Albanian while M205 has higher TMRCA, lol.
    If we have two group of organisms, and one group has TMRCA 8300 years, while another group has TMRCA 4400 years, which group is more diverse?

    Logic, no?




    J1 diversified since Paleolithic 18200 years ago, while J2-M205 8300 years ago.

    Also J1 is not on same level as J2-M205. J1 is on J2 level, while J2-M205 is in fact J2>M102>M205.

    Therefore we cant compare them at the same level, and J1 should definitively be compared and looked upon branch by branch.
    Anyways i dont see why you started to speak about J1 now out of the sky : ) This is J2 Eupedia forum section, J1 is debated in J1 section.
    Look, there’s no need to turn this into a needless argument. I didn’t put words into your mouth. You literally said 95 percent of Albanian J2b-L283 is all PH1751 and that your lineage is more diverse than L283 in Albanians. There’s a big difference between 95 percent and 48 percent.

    L283 has 5-6 main clusters(dominated by PH1751) with plenty of other small sub-clusters. It is very diverse in Albanians.

    now you’re claiming the TMRCA of your lineage some how makes your lineage more diverse and somehow more pivotal to the progenitors of Albanians?

    You can’t really be that uninformed can you? Albanians weren’t even around then, and the diversity of a lineage has less to do with age and more to do with actually DIVERSITY of branches/clades within a given population and their relative spread. the diversity of your line is the eastern Mediterranean. Within Albanians, currently until we have more samples and more clusters forming, your line compared to L283 plays a lesser role and lesser diversity in Albanians.

    Your line may have entered very early. No question. This doesn’t make it the main lineage responsible for albanian ethnogenesis nor does its age have anything to do with our ethnogenesis.

    I’m not forcing anything. I’m stating the plain facts. Doesn’t matter how old your line is or even if it was there before illyrians. It is not more diverse than J2b-L283 where it concerns Albanians and their ethnogenesis.

    yes it’s a J2b sub-forum. Wasn’t trying to turn it into J1. I merely was illustrating it has far more diversity in Albanians than J2b-M205 or even J-L283 for instance but that doesn’t say much where it concerns the later albanian ethnogenesis and which lineages were more successful.

    maybe you delivered your statements differently than you meant to convey. I responded to what you wrote though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Sorry about the off topic J1 post btw.
    Np, i am very interested about J1 also. As its clear J1 and J2-M205 lived side by side since at least 2000 BCE since they were together found in Sidon. Also its possible they expanded together.

    Sadly i have not explored J1 too much.

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