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Thread: J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Based on current data, the J1 clades found in Albanians seem to have primarily arrived between the Late Bronze Age and Byzantine Period. So you are correct. Majority fall under P58 which is a major clade under J1. The clades under P58 include Z1884 (Z1884>L829 and Z1884>FGC11) and Y3081 (ZS241). Both of these clusters are best associated with the Central Semitic branch of Semitic, this branch is comprised of the NW branch (Canaanite and Aramaic), Arabic and some extinct languages such as Amorite. Y3081 itself is best linked to Canaanite, especially Jews or Hebrew speakers. Z1884 has branches which can be linked to the Arabs (FGC11+) as well as branches that can be linked to the Phoenicians (L829+). Should be noted that FGC11 was found in a Bronze Age sample from Sidon, Lebanon, so it is Pre-Arabic. The Albanian L829 seems pretty unique and possibly arrived during the Late Bronze Age, my Y3081 is also pretty unique but I think it's most likely that it arrived after the Iron Age (Probably Roman or Hellenistic period).

    There is a clade that likely arrived during the Neolithic or earlier, this clade is J-Y19093 which is a CHG branch and comes from Y6305 which was found in Paleolithic Georgia. In Albanians so far it seems to be most common in Albanians from Malesi (Montenegro side). There are also clades under L620 and Z1828 which may have arrived during the Bronze Age or a little later.
    Thank you. That says a lot. Seems to have been very active in our neck of the woods for a very long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Np, i am very interested about J1 also. As its clear J1 and J2-M205 lived side by side since at least 2000 BCE since they were together found in Sidon. Also its possible they expanded together.

    Sadly i have not explored J1 too much.


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    I think both had something to do with the expansion and ethnos of Semitic speakers. J2-M205 can be compared to J1-P58 as both have TMRCA ~8,400 years ago. J-Z2324 was also found alongside J-M205 in Early Bronze Age Jordan (Ain Ghazal), both were also found in Pre-Ptolemaic Egypt.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    You are turning this into a needless argument. There is no need to compare J2-M205 and J2-L283 in such a matter.
    It was other guy if you read better who started to compare it and he got all the things wrong. In this post : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post588022

    Now you are just continuing to do the same. J2-L283 might have played this or that role, but for sure its not more diverse then J2-M205. Not that it means something, but simply it is how it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Look, there’s no need to turn this into a needless argument. I didn’t put words into your mouth. You literally said 95 percent of Albanian J2b-L283 is all PH1751 and that your lineage is more diverse than L283 in Albanians. There’s a big difference between 95 percent and 48 percent.
    As i already said it was mistake since i spoken out of the head, i looked at J2-L283 situation long ago while there was maybe 100 or 150 Albanian samples, i am sure that PH1751 had way higher percentage in the past.
    Now recently many people tested and there is over 800 samples and situation changed.

    I admitted mistake and what now, you dont have to repeat it as a parrot. Other guy pulled out L283 saying that it has higher percentage therefore M205 is "foreign" and "recent".
    It was a try to teach him that percentage is not important as you can see that half of that L283 expanded in last 1200 years.
    Also that J2-M205 does not reach high percentage anywhere in the world, common is 0-1 %, therefore if we go by that logic M205 is foreign and recent in entire world.

    Also he pulled out just as you that J2-L283 is more diverse in Albania then J2-M205, which is false again. J2-M205 has higher TMRCA therefore higher diversity in Albania.

    What he (and you) didnt understand is that neither diversity and neither percentage have priority when trying to find origin, but rather ancient DNA.
    Ancient DNA has priority and we can conclude that J2-L283 was present since at least 1600 BCE in Dalmatia as ancient DNA shows us. While J2-M205 was not yet found, but it was found in Middle East.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    L283 has 5-6 main clusters(dominated by PH1751) with plenty of other small sub-clusters. It is very diverse in Albanians.
    Yes i know, i tested few of Albanians who turned out various branches of J2-L283. Also i analyzed their results just as i did yours and discussed them with you if you remember.
    My uncle line (which i also tested), is PH1751.

    Albanian TMRCA of L283 is 4400 years in multiple subclades discovered so far.

    I know way more and before you about Albanian J2-L283 even tho you corrected me about one mistake lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    now you’re claiming the TMRCA of your lineage some how makes your lineage more diverse and somehow more pivotal to the progenitors of Albanians?
    I never said this, lol, you are putting words into my mouth again. Why are you angry and why are writing these stuff Dibran?
    I understand that you realised and corrected me about PH1751 percentage, which i admitted and thanked you. But the rest of argument is like you trying to invent things i never said or claimed and then argue with me about them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    your line compared to L283 plays a lesser role and lesser diversity in Albanians.
    J2-M205 has high diversity and important impact on entire Mediterranean Sea since at least 2000 BCE which is confirmed thru ancient DNA and diversity. And probably since 6000 BCE by TMRCA.
    Albanians are Mediterranean population, therefore i dont see what is not clear there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Your line may have entered very early. No question. This doesn’t make it the main lineage responsible for albanian ethnogenesis nor does its age have anything to do with our ethnogenesis.

    I’m not forcing anything. I’m stating the plain facts. Doesn’t matter how old your line is or even if it was there before illyrians. It is not more diverse than J2b-L283 where it concerns Albanians and their ethnogenesis.
    Who even mentioned albanian ethnogenesis or anything. Are you drunk?

    J2-M205 is more diverse then J2-L283 among Albanians. Because Albanians within J2-M205 have TMRCA 8300 years, while Albanians within J2-L283 have TMRCA 4400 years.

    But nevertheless, Albanian language was brought by probably Indo-Europeans where J2-L283 was part of them, while J2-M205 spread with Semitic speaking populations like Phoenicians for example as ancient DNA testifies therefore its clear that regarding language J2-L283 played important role. But, still, J2-M205 is more diverse among Albanians. I hope you do understand this. And no one except you ever tried to compare who played more role in which period. That is childish way of thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You are turning this into a needless argument. There is no need to compare J2-M205 and J2-L283 in such a matter.
    It was other guy if you read better who started to compare it and he got all the things wrong. In this post : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post588022

    Now you are just continuing to do the same. J2-L283 might have played this or that role, but for sure its not more diverse then J2-M205. Not that it means something, but simply it is how it is.




    As i already said it was mistake since i spoken out of the head, i looked at J2-L283 situation long ago while there was maybe 100 or 150 Albanian samples, i am sure that PH1751 had way higher percentage in the past.
    Now recently many people tested and there is over 800 samples and situation changed.

    I admitted mistake and what now, you dont have to repeat it as a parrot. Other guy pulled out L283 saying that it has higher percentage therefore M205 is "foreign" and "recent".
    It was a try to teach him that percentage is not important as you can see that half of that L283 expanded in last 1200 years.
    Also that J2-M205 does not reach high percentage anywhere in the world, common is 0-1 %, therefore if we go by that logic M205 is foreign and recent in entire world.

    Also he pulled out just as you that J2-L283 is more diverse in Albania then J2-M205, which is false again. J2-M205 has higher TMRCA therefore higher diversity in Albania.

    What he (and you) didnt understand is that neither diversity and neither percentage have priority when trying to find origin, but rather ancient DNA.
    Ancient DNA has priority and we can conclude that J2-L283 was present since at least 1600 BCE in Dalmatia as ancient DNA shows us. While J2-M205 was not yet found, but it was found in Middle East.



    Yes i know, i tested few of Albanians who turned out various branches of J2-L283. Also i analyzed their results just as i did yours and discussed them with you if you remember.
    My uncle line (which i also tested), is PH1751.

    Albanian TMRCA of L283 is 4400 years in multiple subclades discovered so far.

    I know way more and before you about Albanian J2-L283 even tho you corrected me about one mistake lol.



    I never said this, lol, you are putting words into my mouth again. Why are you angry and why are writing these stuff Dibran?
    I understand that you realised and corrected me about PH1751 percentage, which i admitted and thanked you. But the rest of argument is like you trying to invent things i never said or claimed and then argue with me about them.




    J2-M205 has high diversity and important impact on entire Mediterranean Sea since at least 2000 BCE which is confirmed thru ancient DNA and diversity. And probably since 6000 BCE by TMRCA.
    Albanians are Mediterranean population, therefore i dont see what is not clear there?



    Who even mentioned albanian ethnogenesis or anything. Are you drunk?

    J2-M205 is more diverse then J2-L283 among Albanians. Because Albanians within J2-M205 have TMRCA 8300 years, while Albanians within J2-L283 have TMRCA 4400 years.

    But nevertheless, Albanian language was brought by probably Indo-Europeans where J2-L283 was part of them, while J2-M205 spread with Semitic speaking populations like Phoenicians for example as ancient DNA testifies therefore its clear that regarding language J2-L283 played important role. But, still, J2-M205 is more diverse among Albanians. I hope you do understand this. And no one except you ever tried to compare who played more role in which period. That is childish way of thinking.
    You're jumping into different subjects detracting from my simple straight forward point that you claimed all L283 is 95 percent PH1751(where you claimed I put words in your mouth for correcting you) and that there are more diverse clades and branches of M205 in Albanians than L283. That is utter hogwash. Its age is older sure, but that doesn't qualify as diversity. Many distantly related brother clades of varying ages and branches is what constitutes diversity over all. L283 is more diverse in Albanians. M205 being older in Albanians does not mean it is more diverse. That isn't what the current data we have shows.

    The age has nothing to do with it. Using your logic, if TMRCA is the sole determination for diversity, the haplogroups that have highest TMRCA's among Albanians are J1 and J2a.

    You probably meant to say your line is more diverse in the Mediterranean than J-L283. That would be true. This is not however the same as the statement that M205 is more diverse within the Albanians than L283 is. Is this beginning to sink in?

    I brought up Albanian ethnogenesis because YOU are claiming your lineage is more diverse in Albanians than L283. 8300 years ago there were no Albanians, so why even refer to the broad TMRCA of your branch being older in Albanians? What does it have to do with Albanians when the ancient ancestors of Albanian M205 likely spoke Phoenician?

    M205 does not have more subclades, sub-clusters in Albanians than L283 at the moment. Show the proof. I only see 6 Albanians with 3 clusters, none of which are fleshed out yet beside your clade(since you did bigy). Unless you have some other database with numerous Albanians and clades of M205 that all differ?

    Show the proof instead of creating strawman arguments and claiming I put words in your mouth when I literally called you out on your false statements on L283 not being diverse.

    Point remains, L283 has a diversity of clades, and sub-clades in Albanians, regardless of the macro branch M205 being older. Where is this in M205? This is all I see in the project. 4 clusters against 6 if not more within L283.


    J2b-M205 General TMRCA 8300(not bigY tested)

    J2b-M205 Cluster A(not bigy tested)

    J2b-Y22063(formed 1000ybp, TMRCA 800ybp)

    Also, after the latest YTree update, there may actually be a glitch in J-M205 TMRCA since it went from 5700 to 8300 ybp. If you click "info" next to J-CTS1969 TMRCA, one of its main branches, you will see a couple of samples on the bottom have unusually high TMRCA, hence I think this glitch 'artificially' rises the whole M205 TMRCA: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

    Same way in my case the Sardinian L1029 is glitching by supposedly sharing over 140 SNPs with other L1029 which is simply not true.

    Also, in regards to your own cluster, J-Y22059, it's closest matches are in the Levant at ~4900 ybp. Since it's TMRCA is quite low, I think odds are it only arrived here sometime between 3000 to 1000 years ago, perhaps during the Roman - Byzantine period. Also, I think the other J-M205 lineages in the South Albanians likely arrived through different migrations, perhaps Phoenicians/Romans and such, and are definitely not older than the Bronze Age.

    So even if for arguments sake your line is "older" in Albanians than L283, it is certainly not more diverse.

    Btw, don't you dare try and insult me and call me drunk, and childish. You're making baseless assumptions and over analyzing my statements and twisting them to appear a victim. The evidence is stacked against you. L283 is more diverse in Albanians than M205. The end and goodbye.
    Last edited by Dibran; Yesterday at 20:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    You're jumping into different subjects detracting from my simple straight forward point that you claimed all L283 is 95 percent PH1751(where you claimed I put words in your mouth for correcting you) and that there are more diverse clades and branches of M205 in Albanians than L283. That is utter hogwash. Its age is older sure, but that doesn't qualify as diversity.
    Dibran you are repeating that like a parrot again.. You said this like 4 times now that i said that over 95 % of Albanian L283 is PH1751, and i explained you like 4 times why i said it.
    Nevertheless, majority of Albanian L283 is PH1751. With TMRCA 1200 years. While all Albanian L283 subclades together form TMRCA of 4400 ybp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Many distantly related brother clades of varying ages and branches is what constitutes diversity over all. L283 is more diverse in Albanians. M205 being older in Albanians does not mean it is more diverse. That isn't what the current data we have shows.
    You cant look at clade that achieves up to 25 % in some population, and compare it with clade that achieves 0,5 % and say look the one with 25 % has more subclades identified among modern people so it means its more diverse.

    J2-L283 is very diverse within Albanians, in multiple subclades, achieving TMRCA 4400 years. However, J2-M205 also has very high diversity, in multiple subclades, achieving TMRCA 8300 ybp.

    So, even tho J2-L283 is very diverse. J2-M205 is very diverse within Mediterranean Sea, but also among Albanians so far in 4 subclades (TMRCA minimum 8300 ybp).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    The age has nothing to do with it. I already told you your line was probably in the Balkans before Indo-Europeans arrived. Show me where I said your line was a recent arrival. You can't because I never once said that. Now YOU are putting words in my mouth. All I said is its not more diverse than L283 in Albanians.
    Its more diverse lol. All Albanians under J2b-L283 have TMRCA 4400 ybp. While all Albanians under J2-M205 have TMRCA 8300 ybp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    You probably meant to say your line is more diverse in the Mediterranean than J-L283. That would be true. This is not however the same as the statement that M205 is more diverse within the Albanians than L283 is. Is this beginning to sink in?
    J2-M205 shows extreme diversity and low percentage among Albanians, so far i know for 12 samples from North to South in 4 different subclades (TMRCA 8300 years).
    In compare to neighbouring countries with 0 % of J2-M205 like Slovenia, 1 % of J2-M205 in four different sublcades is extreme.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Where is this in M205? This is all I see in the project.

    J2b-M205 General TMRCA 8300(not bigY tested)

    J2b-M205 Cluster A(not bigy tested)

    J2b-Y22063(formed 1000ybp, TMRCA 800ybp)


    Both "General" and "Cluster A" clades are tested M205+ PF7321+ and CTS1969- SNPs in YSEQ.
    While Y22063 as seen is CTS1969+. Since CTS1969 is 8300 years old (at the moment according to Yfull), you can already see that TMRCA of these three Albanian subclades is 8300 years.

    Cluster A did WGS in Dantelabs and it will soon appear in Yfull, while "General" cluster has different STR values and might be brother clade to CTS1969 and "Cluster A". It would be nice if this sample would also do bigY.

    And there is fourth branch identified in public study among Tirana Albanians but we didn't manage to get any of these in project yet. It might be Dema family from Zall Baster near Tirana that tested J2-M205 in 23andme or perhaps some other family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post

    Also, after the latest YTree update, there may actually be a glitch in J-M205 TMRCA since it went from 5700 to 8300 ybp. If you click "info" next to J-CTS1969 TMRCA, one of its main branches, you will see a couple of samples on the bottom have unusually high TMRCA, hence I think this glitch 'artificially' rises the whole M205 TMRCA: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/
    Yes i know, its Palestine Jenin and Saudi Makkah samples, while some samples are not calculated at all or are under analysis.
    I already mentioned this few pages back. There is chance that this is a glitch due to new version but we will see soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Same way in my case the Sardinian L1029 is glitching by supposedly sharing over 140 SNPs with other L1029 which is simply not true.

    Where do you see this Sardinian that shares over 140 SNPs with other L1029? I see Cagliari Sardinian but looks like his TMRCA is not yet calculated.

    Do you mean sample with ID ERS256947 ? I see he is not yet calculated into TMRCA, where you got that he shares 140 SNPs with other L1029?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Where is source of that branch and where is the proof (which mutation)?

    In Croatia exist that branch (Balkan cluster) and based on that I make conclusion.

    We don’t know it yet because we don’t know migration of Y22059 peoples in that area(Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania etc)

    For now we have no evidence for that, if you have evidence show genetic data.
    In Croatia, its mostly Serbs, from "Krajina" to Dalmatia. However there are also original Croats.
    I seen recently on Serbian DNA forum that they are claiming for Croat samples that they are actually Serbs in origin.
    Which is funny to me, they were neither Serbs neither Croats. They are all of Pred-Slavic Montenegrin origin, and we all know what that is.

    Source of mutation Y22066/Y22059 is Y22075, as i already told you: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22075/

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    If Albanians have 4 branches then these mutations must also exist in the Croatian Serbs, where they are?
    It is logical that this branch exist and migrate in that area( Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia or Croatia) if this branch only exist in that area.
    However, once when we find out migration path of that branch then we will know more precisely.
    No, its not like that. There are bottlenecks happening all the time, so if we identify one branch within one territory or nation, it does not mean it has to be in nearby population also.
    We have plenty of examples like this. You need to explore many various branches to realise this.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    In Bulgaria exist many branches of J2 haplotype so maybe source of this branch is there.
    J2 is not that significant in Bulgaria. Also J2-M205 dont have any diversity in Bulgaria. Its only few samples and they all belong to J2-M205>Y22059 (Balkan cluster).
    All of them but one sample have DYS385 15-19, so no percentage neither variations even in this one sublcade.
    In region of Southwest Serbia and Montenegro also in Croatian Krajina/Dalmatia there is way higher percentage and variations then in Bulgaria/Romania.

    Source of Bulgarian M205 samples is Montenegro within the last 1000 years as TMRCA testifies.



    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    No one has Albanian origin they have Vlachs origin, Albanians are not mentioned in Croatia at least not in large numbers. Whether these Vlachs were originally Albanian origin probable they are but not all, there are also migrations from Bulgaria, possibly other countries. Genetics will say that in the future.

    Well they are slavicized and live in Croatia and Bosnia for 600 years now. Its natural they have high percentage of also classic Slavic haplogroups. However what differentiate them from Croats, Bosnjaks or Slovens is extremely high percentage of E-v13 and J2-M205. Their E-v13 in some subclades matches Albanians like subclade i linked earlier, while all of their J2-M205 is Y22066 which is of Pred-Slavic Montenegrin origin so also possibly Albanian origin.
    Im saying that its Albanian because 12 century tribe that belong to it was none-Slavic tribe native to Montenegro. If we identified tribe in Greece i would claim Greek origin or if we identified in Italy i would clame Roman but since tribe is identified in Pred-Slavic Montenegro population which was considered native i dont see what it could be except Albanian lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Therefore you have no proof that branch Y22059 has its source in Albania.
    The fact that this branch exists in Albania does not mean that it could not have come from Bulgaria to Albania. Vlachs probably came from area of Bulgaria as well, otherwise in southern Serbia Bulgarians are also mentioned, they probably brought and some genetics.
    I have proof that Y22059 was present among 12 century none-Slavic Montenegrin tribe that everyone recorded as natives.
    Furthermore Y22059 has TMRCA 1000 years. It means that its main expansion happened within 1000 years somewhere in Montenegro and surrounding areas since only 100 years after its MRCA lived we have records of tribe that belonged to this haplogroup.

    Regarding Vlachs i already told you about Bosch et al 2006 (major Aromun study), no Vlach or Aromun bears J2-M205 except one Vlach in Albania whos closest relatives are Albanian in Albania, Italian in Sicily and Greek in Greece. No Vlach relatives or connection whatsoever.


    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Probably yes but for now branch Y22059 points more to the Bulgarian direction of migration.

    What points to Bulgaria lol ? based on what? On 6 samples out of 800 in Bulgarian project, while this 6 samples all belong to one Montenegrin branch and they have no variations but very similar STRs.
    They are all recent emigrants from Montenegro. Other then that J2-M205 is none-existent in Bulgaria neither has any connection to Turkic languages al Bulgar neither Slavic as modern Bulgarian.


    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    They did not come to defend against Ottoman Empire, they come with Turks.
    They actually arrived to defend against Ottomans, read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republ...ina#Background


    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Written records mention Vlachs, and originally they may be Albanians, Bulgarians etc, we will know this more accurately in the future, but for sure they are mostly original Albanians.
    I dont know yet for matches among Vlachs even tho its possible it needs to be verified, but matches among Albanians can be found.


    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    First prove by written documents that someone migrates from Montenegro to Bulgaria, when you do it then I will answer.
    I dont need document, highest diversity of Y22059 is in area of Montenegro and wider, TMRCA of this sublcade is 1000 years.
    Also its identified within 12 century Montenegrin tribe. Facts speak for itself. Bulgarian samples are South Serbia, Montenegrin or Kosovo emigrants.


    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I'm interested in younger mutations this is old connection (formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp)

    We are talking about migration in the Turkish era.
    There is no younger mutation neither connection. Closest link is multiethnic from Middle East to Mediterranean Europe with difference 4900 years.

    If Y22059 was recent migration we would find closer links or it would be downstream of Middle Eastern subclades but fact is that Y22059 is strait equal brother clade to subclades spread in Middle East and Mediterranean Sea in timeframe of 4900 ybp.



    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    For now there is an older mutation in Serbia and Bosnia (TMRCA), so for now it would be reverse direction of migration. That's why i say we still have to wait.
    It all belongs to 12 century Montenegrin tribe with TMRCA 1000 years. MRCA of Y22059 was none-Slavic Montenegrin.
    Last edited by Dema; Today at 17:10.

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