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Thread: J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

  1. #426
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    ,,,,


    You are insulting other people look all the time calling them jevegs and so on, while you dont dare to show your photo.
    Guy with nicknames "Shpataemadhe" meaning big sword, and Kastriotiblood, is afraid to test. And is afraid to show his own photo and is afraid to show his family photo.


    My parents look ultra Albanian and i have earliest photo from my family from years 1950s. They all look ultra Albanian. I show my family and my foto 100x on forums because i dont have complexes. You are insulting other people by look while you have a brain of a size of peanut. If you are so brave to insult other people haplogroups and looks then why are you afraid to test and to show your own foto or your family.

    Because its you who is Jewg and fake Albanian. That is the reason. Pathetic guy. Show photo if you have balls like to throw insults online, classic pussy boy.

  2. #427
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    ......
    You’ve been reported several times. It’s likely matter of time before you are permanently banned. Then you’ll likely create another sock puppet account to annoy everyone with the lack of understanding in genetics you clearly demonstrate daily since your joining.

    I don’t have the time to address every single point of ignorance you spewed about haplogroups. However on the matter of I2a1, you really know nothing. You demonstrate how much of nothing you know by the simple fact that you can’t distinguish between ancient I2a1(some 30000 years old) and modern I2a1b-Y3120( a subclade whose descendants all go back to only one man between 100BC-100AD).

    furthermore, Y3120 makes up nearly 100 percent of all modern I2a1 cases in the Balkans and entirety of Eastern Europe. Additionally, Y3120 has far more diversity in Poland, Ukraine, Belarus and Russia than its does in Soithern Slavs. It is diversity, not frequency, that indicated likeliness of origin based on the grounds of diversity indicated a diverse pool of progeny that endured.

    whereas in the south it is owed to bottlenecks and founder effects from one or a few men no earlier than the Middle Ages. There is a gap of millennia between starcevo and Y3120. The earliest ancestor of Y3120 was only found in Motala, and his direct parent around France.

    It was likely already incorporated into proto slavs long before the migration and sometime in the mid to late Iron Age.

    your correlation with haplogroups and features are also a demonstration of how very little(if that) you actually know.

    you have yet to test, yet to share your Ydna, and have no participation in the Albanian Bloodlines project. You’re likely not Albanian. If you are though, you’re obviously afraid and insecure to find out you may belong to the very haplogroups you claim to act educated about with regards to their origins.

    Scientists know far more on these matters than you do. So don’t expect your basement dwelling “knowledge” on the matter to sway people Whose qualifications far supersede yours.

    if you go back far enough no Ydna has anything to do with any ethnicity or culture. So, referencing starcrvo just shows your lack of understanding.

  3. #428
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Some of these Romanian/Albanian/Serbian trölls really need to get a life. Its just few outcasts but still they are annoying with their stupidity, everything they say is wrong and they are always proven to be wrong by facts but they still believe they are right, like some zombies.


    Luckily the brainless guy was banned but his slime is left all over the thread. Last 5 pages of this thread should be sent into some Balkan Wars or whatever thread. Cant believe the amount of trash some of these brainless creatures can spew..
    Last edited by Dema; 30-12-19 at 23:29.

  4. #429
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Imagine the brain of this guy. He attacks me that there is more J2b-M241 then J2b-M205 Albanians, but when i point him to the fact that there is more J2a-M410 in Italy, Greece and South Albania, J2b-M241 is more common only in North Albania then he says nothing.

    Then i show him J2-M205 ancient DNA trying to teach him to take ancient DNA into consideration also but then he says:

    "These are only dots on maps, who knows where this tribe lived". Basically refusing to take ancient DNA into consideration.

    But then i point him out that there is way more I2a1-CTS10228 in Arberesh then J2-M241, then he says I2a1 was found in many samples in Starcevo culture in Serbia and north Slavs dont have I2a1 and Serbian I2a1 is from Starcevo culture xDDDD


    Interestingly, all the suddenly he understands ancient DNA and its not irrelevant anymore and its not "dots on map".

    Also not to mention as Dibran has also pointed out that starcevo had 1 out of 14 samples that were I2a1, and its basal clade I2a1-PF3581 formed 21300 ybp, TMRCA 18400 ybp, and not I2a1-Y3120 formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 2100 which is 99 % of Balkan I2a1. There is probably 18 000 years distance with them and this Starcevo ancient sample.

    Which basically means that 60 % of Muslim Bosnjaks, 40 % of Croats, 30 % of Serbs, 20 % Slovens, share same common ancestor within 2100 years with many Ukrainians, Polaks, Slovaks and Russians.
    Also going by diversity its obvious that Polaks and Ukrainians have way more diversity then Balkan does. And there is also ancient DNA found.

    And this insulting without understanding anything, just strait disrespect is really low and childish. I understand that some of them are immature and they are still developing into personalities, i was also young but i never displayed such arrogance and behavior. It is simply not a way to do it properly.

  5. #430
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Well this was cancerous to read through x) I wish all my cousins a happy new year I hope there will be no more value based assertions with regards to dominance of haplogroups or ethnic peoples.

    My two cents on this whole mess: J2b-M205 is 99% of middle eastern origin. If the TMRCA is correct with regards to some of it's subcalades, the arriving ancestor might have assimilated in either: Albanian, Greek, Latin or Slavic population at the time. It is neither Greek, Albanian, Latin nor Slavic (Serbian) in origin. Dema seems to be certain that Vlachs (especially Kriči tribe) in areas around Montenegro are actually members of Albanian speaking population at the time. This hypothesis is most probable. However, I would really like someone who is quite knowledgeable on topics of all Vlachs in south-east Europe to give his perspective on this. Why would someone in the 15th century call Albanian population that became slavicized Vlach when it was already an established identity (either an Albanian or Slavic)?

    Also some thoughts on phenotypes of ancient European population. I think whole of Europe, especially before bronze age was 99% blonde. During the bronze age, due to some intermixing, I think mostly the tint of blonde was starting to shift to darker. Even later accounts of Roman kings' hair colour give us as far as I can remember from reading around 50% blonde or dark blonde hair. Blonde hair genes, while recessive, were definitely still dominant even in the south of Europe around the beginning of the first millennium.

    Random interesting thing about hair my hair colour: Both my parents and four of my grandparents have pitch black hair, and have had since birth. I was born with brownish hair that turned into blonde in the sun, and up until 6 years old it was mostly blonde and red, and later developed into pitch black, and is now in my 30's getting lighter again... My sister had like super light blonde hair up until 10-12 years, and then she turned brownish with some blonde strains.

  6. #431
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Since there are so many subclades discovered for J2b-M205 since first analysed four years ago, I recently analysed the BAM file of Roman era York gladiator (3DRIF-26), who had autosomal affinities of a Middle Easterner. He is PF7321+ and negative on SNPs that were covered for every current J-PF7321 subclade, including negative on the Private SNPs of the Ukrainian J-PF7321*, except for CTS1969 which has no reads. So he is at J-PF7321* or J-CTS1969* in case CTS1969+
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

    Below are some important SNP calls:

    PF7321 2T+
    Y3163 1G+
    Y101509 2A-
    YP51 1C-
    CTS1969 ?? (no reads)
    Y45447 2T-
    Y27394 2G-
    BY88216 2G-
    CTS10179 2T-
    Y22521 1T-
    FT45285 1G-
    Y134194 1G-
    Y134202 1G-
    FT45279 2T-
    Last edited by Trojet; 11-01-20 at 13:32.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

  7. #432
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Since there are so many subclades discovered for J2b-M205 since first analysed four years ago, I recently analysed the BAM file of Roman era York gladiator (3DRIF-26), who had autosomal affinities of a Middle Easterner. He is PF7321+ and negative on SNPs that were covered for every current J-PF7321 subclade, including negative on the Private SNPs of the Ukrainian J-PF7321*, except for CTS1969 which has no reads. So he is at J-PF7321* or J-CTS1969* in case CTS1969+
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

    Below are some important SNP calls:

    PF7321 2T+
    Y3163 1G+
    Y101509 2A-
    YP51 1C-
    CTS1969 ?? (no reads)
    Y45447 2T-
    Y27394 2G-
    BY88216 2G-
    CTS10179 2T-
    Y22521 1T-
    FT45285 1G-
    Y134194 1G-
    Y134202 1G-
    FT45279 2T-

    Too bad that he has no read on somewhat important SNP CTS1969. However this confirmed that gladiator is M205+ and PF7321+ and so far not closer to any other branch downstream.
    In contrast as it was believed before that our Ukraine sample is closer to Roman gladiator. I think Chris has mentioned this in his article long ago.

    Trojet, since you have private SNPs of our Ukraine sample can you check him against Roman sample found in recent Roman study : Sample R1283, 771-974 CE.


    There is slim chance but anything is possible. He expressed this wish here : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post590294

  8. #433
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    Let me remind my privates SNPs:

    Vendor Name hg19 hg38 Reference Derived Q Qual Reads
    BigY700 FT73186 3500997 3632956 C G 100 Best 19 - 0
    BigY700 FT73233 4716019 4847978 A C 100 Best 5 - 0
    BigY700 FT73248 5023098 5155057 G A 100 Best 19 - 0
    BigY700 FT73253 5076255 5208214 C T 100 Best 19 - 0
    BigY700 FT73264 5327319 5459278 G A 100 Best 11 - 0
    BigY700 FT73266 5371065 5503024 C G 100 Best 19 - 0
    BigY700 FT73270 5470569 5602528 C T 100 Best 16 - 0
    BigY700 Y38687 6847413 6979372 A G 100 Best 27 A 2
    BigY700 Y38711 6895756 7027715 A C 100 Best 12 - 0
    BigY700 Y38713 6896130 7028089 A G 100 Best 25 A 2
    BigY700 Y170579 7301315 7433274 C T 100 Best 19 - 0
    BigY700 Y39000 7571509 7703468 T A 100 Best 28 T 1
    BigY700 Y39072 7706239 7838198 G T 100 Best 25 G 1
    BigY700 Y170690 8062232 8194191 T A 100 Best 22 - 0
    BigY700 Y39355 8197067 8329026 G A 100 Best 29 G 1
    BigY700 Y39369 8217800 8349759 C G 100 Best 15 - 0
    BigY700 Y170823 8693060 8825019 C T 100 Best 26 C 1
    BigY700 Y170673 13986294 11865588 T A 100 Best 23 - 0
    BigY700 Y40427 14308755 12188049 C T 100 Best 11 - 0
    BigY700 Y40428 14308756 12188050 G T 100 Best 11 - 0
    BigY700 Y40429 14308757 12188051 T G 100 Best 11 - 0
    BigY700 Y40670 14813725 12701796 A G 100 Best 25 - 0
    BigY700 Y40872 15204261 13092347 T C 100 Best 23 - 0
    BigY700 Y40891 15250380 13138466 A G 100 Best 24 A 1
    BigY700 Y170751 15370287 13258407 G C 100 Best 28 - 0
    BigY700 Y40953 15371455 13259575 C G 100 Best 27 - 0
    BigY700 Y41014 15502872 13390992 G T 100 Best 25 G 1
    BigY700 Y41808 17031211 14919331 G C 100 Best 18 - 0
    BigY700 Y42016 17422876 15310996 T C 100 Best 20 - 0
    BigY700 Y170827 17440656 15328776 A G 100 Best 16 A 1
    BigY700 18001131 15889251 C G 100 Best 17 - 0
    BigY700 Y170674 18154415 16042535 G T 100 Best 17 - 0
    BigY700 Y42596 18643236 16531356 A G 100 Best 27 - 0
    BigY700 Y42740 18909248 16797368 C G 100 Best 19 C 1
    BigY700 Y42756 18936140 16824260 C T 100 Best 28 C 1
    BigY700 Y42902 19187078 17075198 C T 100 Best 18 C 1
    BigY700 Y170608 21283280 19121394 C T 100 Best 20 C 1
    BigY700 Y43477 21676801 19514915 T C 100 Best 18 T 1
    BigY700 Y43523 21772909 19611023 T G 100 Best 16 T 1
    BigY700 Y43653 22020501 19858615 T C 100 Best 20 T 3
    BigY700 Y43687 22096841 19934955 A G 100 Best 16 - 0
    BigY700 Y43722 22180121 20018235 T A 100 Best 16 - 0
    BigY700 Y43739 22200999 20039113 C T 100 Best 21 - 0
    BigY700 Y43757 22216229 20054343 C T 100 Best 17 - 0
    BigY700 22321602 20159716 C A 100 Best 20 - 0
    BigY700 Y43918 22721203 20559317 T C 100 Best 28 - 0
    BigY700 Y44029 22904559 20742673 A T 100 Best 21 A 2
    BigY700 Y44233 23254636 21092750 A G 100 Best 18 - 0
    BigY700 Y44455 23650943 21489057 A G 100 Best 13 - 0
    BigY700 Y44541 23988658 21842511 A C 100 Best 17 - 0
    BigY700 Y44584 24431820 22285673 G A 100 Best 24 - 0
    BigY700 24460060 22313913 G A 100 Best 14 - 0
    BigY700 Y170659 28527295 26381148 A C 100 Best 13 A 1
    BigY700 Y170645 28637934 26491787 T C 100 Best 21 - 0
    BigY700 Y41778 16984627 14872747 C T 99 Acceptable 22 C 1
    BigY700 Y43816 22536727 20374841 T A 100 Acceptable 3 T 1
    BigY700 Y170826 22782005 20620119 G T 99 Acceptable 28 G 2
    BigY700 BY147406 23753002 21591116 A G 95 Acceptable 29 - 0
    BigY700 Y170585 28526063 26379916 G T 99 Acceptable 24 - 0
    BigY700 17826645 15714765 C A 89 Ambiguous 21 C 1
    BigY700 FT73161 3012238 3144197 C T 80 Low 14 - 0
    BigY700 FT73305 6070213 6202172 G A 82 Low 23 - 0
    BigY700 Y43778 22298712 20136826 T A 73 Low 27 - 0
    Dante FT73237 4835908 4967867 A G 100 Best 60 - 0
    Dante Y174629 13535255 11379579 G A 100 Best 6 - 0
    Dante Y174692 13541006 11385330 G A 100 Best 6 G 1
    Dante Y181210 11643854 G T 100 Best 15 - 0
    Dante FT73408/Y174630 16490486 14378606 G T 97 Acceptable G 1
    Dante 22624058 20462172 T A 100 Ambiguous 2 - 0
    Dante 14566015 12454215 T C 1 One reading! 1 - 0
    Dante 14635624 12523693 T C 1 One reading! 1 T 2
    Dante 15175901 13063987 T C 1 One reading! 1 T 1
    Dante 21770397 19608511 C T 1 One reading! 1 - 0
    Dante 22168195 20006309 G T 1 One reading! 1 - 0
    Dante 23372818 21210932 T C 1 One reading! 1 - 0
    Dante 23983309 21837162 G T 1 One reading! 1 - 0

  9. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    Well this was cancerous to read through x) I wish all my cousins a happy new year I hope there will be no more value based assertions with regards to dominance of haplogroups or ethnic peoples.

    My two cents on this whole mess: J2b-M205 is 99% of middle eastern origin. If the TMRCA is correct with regards to some of it's subcalades, the arriving ancestor might have assimilated in either: Albanian, Greek, Latin or Slavic population at the time. It is neither Greek, Albanian, Latin nor Slavic (Serbian) in origin. Dema seems to be certain that Vlachs (especially Kriči tribe) in areas around Montenegro are actually members of Albanian speaking population at the time. This hypothesis is most probable. However, I would really like someone who is quite knowledgeable on topics of all Vlachs in south-east Europe to give his perspective on this. Why would someone in the 15th century call Albanian population that became slavicized Vlach when it was already an established identity (either an Albanian or Slavic)?

    Also some thoughts on phenotypes of ancient European population. I think whole of Europe, especially before bronze age was 99% blonde. During the bronze age, due to some intermixing, I think mostly the tint of blonde was starting to shift to darker. Even later accounts of Roman kings' hair colour give us as far as I can remember from reading around 50% blonde or dark blonde hair. Blonde hair genes, while recessive, were definitely still dominant even in the south of Europe around the beginning of the first millennium.

    Random interesting thing about hair my hair colour: Both my parents and four of my grandparents have pitch black hair, and have had since birth. I was born with brownish hair that turned into blonde in the sun, and up until 6 years old it was mostly blonde and red, and later developed into pitch black, and is now in my 30's getting lighter again... My sister had like super light blonde hair up until 10-12 years, and then she turned brownish with some blonde strains.

    Kriçi were most likely Albanian language speakers. Being a native highland Montenegrin tribe they were probably not distinguishable from Albanian highland tribes. Their autosomal from tribal time 800 years ago was probably 100 % Southeast Europe, or extremely close to it. Which would be very similar to Albanian autosomal.

    Since we could not find J2-M205 among Albanians in the beginning i also believed in Vlach theory. I simply believed that Kriçi were Latin speakers or that they at least considered themselves Vlach or Aromun. However things are not always as they seem and truth seems to be somewhat different. I was simply forced to completely abandon Vlach theory because after further analysis and gathering of proofs like Bosch et al results which tested enormous number of Albanian Vlachs, Romanian Vlachs, Macedonian Vlachs, Aromuns, Romanians and specifically targeted Vlach and Aromun population. And the only J2-M205 Vlach sample in that entire study is from Albania, and his closest relatives are among Albanians in Gjirokaster, Greeks in Greece and Italians in Sicily. He has no connection to Vlachs whatsoever. And J2-M205 is virtually none existed among Vlachs.

    So not only that Kriçi were not a Vlach tribe, but J2-M205 is none existent in Vlachs and Aromuns. Furthermore check statistics of Albanian project on www.gjenetika.com, there are 7 Vllah results but again same as in Bosch et al, we cannot find M205 among Vlachs, but even these few samples in various branches that we have, they are all Albanian.

    J2-M205>Y22059, given by all facts and closest relatives and their disperse over Mediterranean Sea gives strong signal of being of Phoenician or Roman time expansion. We know that we were either Phoenician and Roman 2500 - 2000 years ago, but our tribal MRCA that lived 1000 ybp lost these memories long ago. His descendants considered themselves natives and they probably integrated with local population wich in these territories of Montenegro were clearly albanophone prior to slavicisation.

    Albanian language was unknown prior to 10 century CE, but that does not mean it was not present before. Since Kriçi were Montenegrin native highland tribe of Durmitor mountains, i dont see what else could they be?

    Latin was known language and if they spoken Latin that would be known, but fact that they were recorded as natives of unknown language pretty much pinpoints to Albanians.
    Last edited by Dema; 20-01-20 at 16:11.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    BTW,

    I've asked the YFull guys. The quality of the R1283 doesn't allow to put in in the tree.

    But certainly you can check it manually.

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    One Molgen.org user already checked my samples.
    Here is staistics.

    He used 75 SNPs to check.
    26 in R1283 were read.
    49 are not read at all.
    All read SNPs for R1283 are with reference values.

    I.e. there is not any new branch for me and R1283.

    *** But I am still the closest match for this London gladiator.

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    TMRCA is not less than 3000 ybp.

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    Oh, sorry!

    My mistake.

    This is the results for Mediaval Roman sample. Not for gladiator.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mich Glitch View Post
    One Molgen.org user already checked my samples.
    Here is staistics.

    He used 75 SNPs to check.
    26 in R1283 were read.
    49 are not read at all.
    All read SNPs for R1283 are with reference values.

    I.e. there is not any new branch for me and R1283.

    *** But I am still the closest match for this London gladiator.



    You are 5700 years away from gladiator just as everyone else under J2-M205, i think Trojet analysis just confirmed this.
    So, since you were already compared to R1283 and you dont share any private SNP with him also, i would say that your line is still unknown.
    Most likely Bronze Age migration from Zagros/Middle East to North Caucasus and then to northern Black Sea shores.
    There is possibility that your line is also Roman expansion to Black Sea shores where Romans expanded and defeated Scythians, Sarmatians, etc.
    I would say migration happened anywhere from Bronze Age to Roman time.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: Albania



    Since some things were going on with Albanian DNA project and many samples were sadly withdrawn from project, as it looks there was a loss of about half of samples.
    Also this loss of samples hardly hit haplogroup J2-M205 where our Gjirokaster cluster was sadly completely wiped out. We are left only with two J2-M205 samples in project.

    Therefore i decided to post all Albanian J2-M205 samples that i managed to collect thru this time of few years of research : )
    So, there is 14 samples in 5 different branches with Y22059 dominating in the north and Gjirokaster cluster dominating in the south, both of them are CTS1969+.


    23andme Dema, Zall-Bastar, central Albania. J2b-M205 SNP.
    23andme (probably Y22059) Gjenashaj, Shestan, Montenegro J2b-M205 SNP.

    1. Haziri/Dema brotherhood Kosovo, Vulaj north Albania, Hyseni Kosovo. CTS1969+ Y22059+

    2. Celo, Cabej, Ruca, Tosk (Ferri et al), Tosk (Sarno et al), Gjirokaster Albania, CTS1969+, Gjirokaster cluster

    3. Gogo, Gjirokaster, Albania. 175 Bosch et al Andon Poci Aromun Albania, CTS1969 ?

    4. Tirana, central Albania Albanian (Bosch et al), DYS388=12 M205+

    5. Arbereshe Italia ISN59 ARB_CAL POL_AREA J-M12+ M205+
    Last edited by Dema; 04-02-20 at 14:03.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Nothing new boys?

  17. #442
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    There is some new things. Like our English-Irish-Canadian branch got their distant relatives in Yemen with who they share TMRCA 2300 years before present which fits Punic Wars very good and time of Roman-Phoenician wars. But usually news arrive very slowly therefore i think some major news will arrive every 1 year in average.
    For now we know much more about J2-M205 then before. What is characteristic for J2-M205 is that it has TMRCA 5900 ybp. Therefore all J2-M205 come from one man who lived 5900 years ago. Also our oldest ancient DNA found is from Jordan 4500 ybp and Lebanon 3600 ybp.

    -Therefore we can assume that MRCA of all J2-M205 lived and expanded in Middle East since 4000 BCE.

    -I connect expansion of J2-M205 line with Akkadians, Canaanites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Phoenicians, Greeks, and finally Romans.

    For such a small haplogroup not only that we have confirmed by ancient DNA most of these origins but also whenever ancient Roman bones tested J2-M205 was present among them with most likely earlier Phoenician or other Middle Eastern origin.
    Last edited by Dema; 20-05-20 at 16:22.

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    @Dema: I saw on the Serbian Y-DNA Project forum that it was mentioned that you form a cluster under Y22063>BY162742 with a mainland Greek from a particular study. Thought I should inform you of this since it's about you.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    @Dema: I saw on the Serbian Y-DNA Project forum that it was mentioned that you form a cluster under Y22063>BY162742 with a mainland Greek from a particular study. Thought I should inform you of this since it's about you.

    Aha, thanks for letting me know, i also just seen what they are writing. Well that does not surprise me because just as ancient Greeks had strong interactions with Phoenicians, M205 is pretty strong within Greeks. Highest percentage of J2-M205 in the world is among Cypriot Greeks and Greeks for sure have quite a few various sublcades that would be interesting for further testing.
    This is a good read - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Wars


    Its quite possible that we (Y22059) had Hellenic identity rather then Roman one after losing Phoenician identity and settling Balkan. That is why in previous post i mentioned both Greeks and Romans.

    Problem is that we dont have a single Greek in Yfull and most of these that tested did very few markers and did not advance tests.
    The only Greek on Yfull is mr. Porfiriadis also Y22075+ with Turkish flag but with clearly Greek ethnicity living in what is now Turkey. I would recommend him to put Greek flag rather then Turkish one since he is obviously a Greek and that is personal choice of preference. But also Italians are problem because they have also some very interesting subclades which are not yet properly tested. Perhaps in future this will change.

    Regarding this Greek from study sharing one of my private SNPs its very interesting but does not tell us too much, lets hope we find that sample in FTDNA and make some advance tests.

    Y22059 is most likely ancient (at least 2000 years old) in these waters because if it was recent we would find recent connection.
    Last edited by Dema; 22-05-20 at 15:19.

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    It means that me and that continental Greek from study (GR99-151) had same ancestor in time of 600-800 years ago and that we form new subclade under Y22063 of course.
    But since he is from study we dont have any additional information about him. It would not be bad idea to extract his autosomal from bam file and see where he plots and do we even match on some segments.

    Also i see that in same study Serbs discovered that sample TBS19 from Turkish Black Sea Coast shares one SNP with Y22059 meaning he splits entire Y22059 but its most likely very distant connection. As i understood bam file is not of good quality and therefore all SNPs cant be checked. Sharing one out of 30 SNPs can be distant over 5000 years.

    This sample TBS19 is designated to live in Turkish Black Sea Coast but its not clear to me is he Turk or Greek?
    Anyways, whatever his ethnicity is, he is most likely of previous Canaanite/Phoenician origin.

    Look what Wikipedia says about South Black Sea shores:

    "Early into the Iron Age, the Phoenicians established ports, warehouses, markets, and settlement all across the Mediterranean and up to the southern Black Sea. Initially led by Tyre, colonies were established on Cyprus, Sardinia, the Balearic Islands, Sicily, and Malta, as well as the fertile coasts of North Africa and the mineral rich Iberian Peninsula."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoeni...%80%93800_BCE)

    Study: A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean
    Last edited by Dema; 22-05-20 at 16:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    @Dema: I saw on the Serbian Y-DNA Project forum that it was mentioned that you form a cluster under Y22063>BY162742 with a mainland Greek from a particular study. Thought I should inform you of this since it's about you.

    Just downloaded bam files to see for autosomal data but these files are so small that its possible that they contain only Y chromosome information.
    I will see for this later. However i checked this Cont. Greek and Turkish Black Coast individual for my private SNPs and it seems Serbs have made little unintentional mistake, so its not BY162742 that we share but as it seems its BY162370.


    Also i found that continental Greek and Turkish Black Coast person both share my private SNP BY162370.

    Also in this study there is continental Italian which is positive to SNP A11525 which is probably on Y22059 level and all these samples are positive to this SNP.


    So, its something like this:

    J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>? Cont. Italian (RCG24) (TMRCA 3000-5000 ybp)
    J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y22059>Y22063>BY162370 Dema Kosovo, Cont. Greek (GR99-151), Turkish Black Sea Coast sample (TBS19) (TMRCA 600-800 ybp)


    I will have to check all this few more times but im pretty sure its right.

    This is great discovery, i will think more about it later

  22. #447
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    I have double checked the situation within mentioned study, also i asked Albanian administrator Flor Veseli and he show me some mistakes that i made but looks like Serbs have also made many mistakes. Also Flor has said to double check everything in Monday.

    Therefore i double checked everything again and new results say that mentioned continental Greek does not share any of my novel SNPs. However he is positive for Y22063. Therefore most likely Y22063*.

    In this study there are 3 samples very interesting for Y22059 (Balkan cluster of J2-M205). There is Cont. Italian (RCG24), Cont. Greek (GR99-151), and person labeled by location Turkish Black Sea (TBS19) with high chance to belong to Greek ethnicity.

    So, as it looks by results Turkish guy shares one SNP (A11525) with us and negative to at least 12.
    Italian guy shares 1 SNP (A11525) with us and negative to 1 (Y24810).
    And Greek guy is positive to Y22063 therefore his results are pretty clear, he is very close to us.


    According to this new phylogeny will be something like this:

    J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Turkish Black Sea guy (TMRCA 4000-5000 ybp)

    J2-M205>Y22075>A11525> Cont. Italian (TMRCA 1500 - 5000 ybp)

    J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y24810>Y22063 Cont Greek (TMRCA 1000 ybp)

    Since we are all positive for A11525 that will probably become our new branch designation and probably one of oldest SNPs within these 30ish novel SNPs our group has.

    Both Italian and Turkish guy split our clade with high TMRCA but Italian guy has really low coverage while Turkish guy has somewhat better. There is no coverage on many SNPs therefore we cant know very precisely but without doubt these are further connections that Y22059 Balkan cluster has looked for long time and it found them in Central Italy and Turkish Black Sea, with potential TMRCA 4000-5000 ybp.

    Here is results i got for SNPs on Y22059 level against these 3 samples from study:

    Y22059 nocov


    Y22079 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


    Y22062 nocov


    Y22060 nocov


    Y22074 nocov


    Y22061 nocov


    Y22066 nocov


    Y22067 positive GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


    Y22064 positive GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


    Y22065 positive GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


    Y22071 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


    Y22080 nocov


    A11525 positive GRE positive ITA positive TUR


    Y22081 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


    Y22073 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


    Y22083 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


    Y22068 positive GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


    Y24805 nocov


    Y24806 nocov


    Y24809 nocov


    BY40885 nocov


    BY40913 nocov


    Y24808 nocov


    Y22078 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


    Y24811 nocov


    Y24807 nocov


    Y22077 nocov


    FT238853 nocov


    Y24810 positive GRE negative ITA negative TUR


    FGC55083 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


    Y188611 nocov


    Y24804 nocov


    Y22063 positive GRE negative ITA negative TUR
    Last edited by Dema; 24-05-20 at 16:16.

  23. #448
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    Just checked all J2b samples from given study A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean
    and results are next:

    GR99-3 Cont. Greece J2b-M12>M205+

    PAL03 Cont. Italy J2b-M12>M205+

    RCG24 Cont. Italy J2b-M12>M205>Y22075>A11525+

    GR99-151 Cont. Greece J2b-M12>M205>Y22075>A11525>Y24810>Y22063+

    TBS19 Turkish Black Sea coast J2b-M12>M205>Y22075>A11525+

    GR99-2 Cont. Greece J2b-M12>M241>L283>Z600>Z638+

    TWM9744 West Turkey J2b-M12>M241>L283>Z600>Z638+

    BRI001 Cont. Italy J2b-M12>M241>L283>Z600>Z638+

  24. #449
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    Bad and good news, just redownloaded GR99-151 again and rechecked and seems he really shares one of my private SNPs, so as Serbs said BY162742 / Y153290.

    Maybe file was corrupted or something.

    It means that this Cont. Greek is yet my closest relative but sharing only one of my SNPs it can be probably 600-900 years away.

    Now i go recheck rest of SNPs again.....

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    Anyways, just triple checked everything, looks like everything is good just as in previous post except fact that Cont. Greek from this study really shares one of my SNPs.

    So, this is really big news for me personally but for entire Y22059/Y22066 Balkan cluster of J2-M205.


    Let me try to define new Y22059 Balkan cluster phylogeny one more time based on new finds:


    J2-M205>Y22075>A11525+ Turkish Black Sea (TMRCA 4000-5000 ybp)
    J2-M205>Y22075>A11525+ Cont. Italian (TMRCA 1500 - 5000 ybp)
    J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y24810>Y22059+ Balkan (TMRCA 1000 ybp)
    J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y24810>Y22059>Y22063>BY162742/Y153290+ Albanian and Greek (TMRCA 600 - 700 ybp)




    Triple checked snps (RCG24 ITA, TBS19 TUR) from study:


    Y22079 ITA nocov TUR negative

    Y22062 nocov

    Y22074 nocov

    Y22060 nocov

    Y22061 nocov

    Y22066 nocov

    Y22067 ITA nocov TUR negative

    Y22064 ITA nocov TUR negative

    Y22065 ITA nocov TUR negative

    Y22071 ITA nocov TUR negative

    Y22080 nocov

    A11525 ITA positive TUR positive

    Y22081 ITA nocov TUR negative

    Y22073 ITA nocov TUR negative

    Y22083 ITA nocov TUR negative

    Y22068 ITA nocov TUR negative

    Y24805 nocov

    Y24806 nocov

    Y24809 nocov

    BY40885 nocov

    BY40913 nocov

    Y24808 nocov

    Y22059 nocov

    Y22078 ITA nocov TUR negative

    Y24811 ITA nocov TUR negative

    Y24807 nocov

    Y22077 nocov

    FT238853 nocov

    Y24810 ITA negative TUR negative

    FGC55083 ITA nocov TUR negative

    Y188611 nocov

    Y24804 nocov

    Y22063 ITA negative TUR negative

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