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Thread: J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

  1. #426
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    ,,,,


    You are insulting other people look all the time calling them jevegs and so on, while you dont dare to show your photo.
    Guy with nicknames "Shpataemadhe" meaning big sword, and Kastriotiblood, is afraid to test. And is afraid to show his own photo and is afraid to show his family photo.


    My parents look ultra Albanian and i have earliest photo from my family from years 1950s. They all look ultra Albanian. I show my family and my foto 100x on forums because i dont have complexes. You are insulting other people by look while you have a brain of a size of peanut. If you are so brave to insult other people haplogroups and looks then why are you afraid to test and to show your own foto or your family.

    Because its you who is Jewg and fake Albanian. That is the reason. Pathetic guy. Show photo if you have balls like to throw insults online, classic pussy boy.

  2. #427
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    ......
    You’ve been reported several times. It’s likely matter of time before you are permanently banned. Then you’ll likely create another sock puppet account to annoy everyone with the lack of understanding in genetics you clearly demonstrate daily since your joining.

    I don’t have the time to address every single point of ignorance you spewed about haplogroups. However on the matter of I2a1, you really know nothing. You demonstrate how much of nothing you know by the simple fact that you can’t distinguish between ancient I2a1(some 30000 years old) and modern I2a1b-Y3120( a subclade whose descendants all go back to only one man between 100BC-100AD).

    furthermore, Y3120 makes up nearly 100 percent of all modern I2a1 cases in the Balkans and entirety of Eastern Europe. Additionally, Y3120 has far more diversity in Poland, Ukraine, Belarus and Russia than its does in Soithern Slavs. It is diversity, not frequency, that indicated likeliness of origin based on the grounds of diversity indicated a diverse pool of progeny that endured.

    whereas in the south it is owed to bottlenecks and founder effects from one or a few men no earlier than the Middle Ages. There is a gap of millennia between starcevo and Y3120. The earliest ancestor of Y3120 was only found in Motala, and his direct parent around France.

    It was likely already incorporated into proto slavs long before the migration and sometime in the mid to late Iron Age.

    your correlation with haplogroups and features are also a demonstration of how very little(if that) you actually know.

    you have yet to test, yet to share your Ydna, and have no participation in the Albanian Bloodlines project. You’re likely not Albanian. If you are though, you’re obviously afraid and insecure to find out you may belong to the very haplogroups you claim to act educated about with regards to their origins.

    Scientists know far more on these matters than you do. So don’t expect your basement dwelling “knowledge” on the matter to sway people Whose qualifications far supersede yours.

    if you go back far enough no Ydna has anything to do with any ethnicity or culture. So, referencing starcrvo just shows your lack of understanding.

  3. #428
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Some of these Romanian/Albanian/Serbian trölls really need to get a life. Its just few outcasts but still they are annoying with their stupidity, everything they say is wrong and they are always proven to be wrong by facts but they still believe they are right, like some zombies.


    Luckily the brainless guy was banned but his slime is left all over the thread. Last 5 pages of this thread should be sent into some Balkan Wars or whatever thread. Cant believe the amount of trash some of these brainless creatures can spew..
    Last edited by Dema; 31-12-19 at 00:29.

  4. #429
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Imagine the brain of this guy. He attacks me that there is more J2b-M241 then J2b-M205 Albanians, but when i point him to the fact that there is more J2a-M410 in Italy, Greece and South Albania, J2b-M241 is more common only in North Albania then he says nothing.

    Then i show him J2-M205 ancient DNA trying to teach him to take ancient DNA into consideration also but then he says:

    "These are only dots on maps, who knows where this tribe lived". Basically refusing to take ancient DNA into consideration.

    But then i point him out that there is way more I2a1-CTS10228 in Arberesh then J2-M241, then he says I2a1 was found in many samples in Starcevo culture in Serbia and north Slavs dont have I2a1 and Serbian I2a1 is from Starcevo culture xDDDD


    Interestingly, all the suddenly he understands ancient DNA and its not irrelevant anymore and its not "dots on map".

    Also not to mention as Dibran has also pointed out that starcevo had 1 out of 14 samples that were I2a1, and its basal clade I2a1-PF3581 formed 21300 ybp, TMRCA 18400 ybp, and not I2a1-Y3120 formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 2100 which is 99 % of Balkan I2a1. There is probably 18 000 years distance with them and this Starcevo ancient sample.

    Which basically means that 60 % of Muslim Bosnjaks, 40 % of Croats, 30 % of Serbs, 20 % Slovens, share same common ancestor within 2100 years with many Ukrainians, Polaks, Slovaks and Russians.
    Also going by diversity its obvious that Polaks and Ukrainians have way more diversity then Balkan does. And there is also ancient DNA found.

    And this insulting without understanding anything, just strait disrespect is really low and childish. I understand that some of them are immature and they are still developing into personalities, i was also young but i never displayed such arrogance and behavior. It is simply not a way to do it properly.

  5. #430
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Well this was cancerous to read through x) I wish all my cousins a happy new year I hope there will be no more value based assertions with regards to dominance of haplogroups or ethnic peoples.

    My two cents on this whole mess: J2b-M205 is 99% of middle eastern origin. If the TMRCA is correct with regards to some of it's subcalades, the arriving ancestor might have assimilated in either: Albanian, Greek, Latin or Slavic population at the time. It is neither Greek, Albanian, Latin nor Slavic (Serbian) in origin. Dema seems to be certain that Vlachs (especially Kriči tribe) in areas around Montenegro are actually members of Albanian speaking population at the time. This hypothesis is most probable. However, I would really like someone who is quite knowledgeable on topics of all Vlachs in south-east Europe to give his perspective on this. Why would someone in the 15th century call Albanian population that became slavicized Vlach when it was already an established identity (either an Albanian or Slavic)?

    Also some thoughts on phenotypes of ancient European population. I think whole of Europe, especially before bronze age was 99% blonde. During the bronze age, due to some intermixing, I think mostly the tint of blonde was starting to shift to darker. Even later accounts of Roman kings' hair colour give us as far as I can remember from reading around 50% blonde or dark blonde hair. Blonde hair genes, while recessive, were definitely still dominant even in the south of Europe around the beginning of the first millennium.

    Random interesting thing about hair my hair colour: Both my parents and four of my grandparents have pitch black hair, and have had since birth. I was born with brownish hair that turned into blonde in the sun, and up until 6 years old it was mostly blonde and red, and later developed into pitch black, and is now in my 30's getting lighter again... My sister had like super light blonde hair up until 10-12 years, and then she turned brownish with some blonde strains.

  6. #431
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Since there are so many subclades discovered for J2b-M205 since first analysed four years ago, I recently analysed the BAM file of Roman era York gladiator (3DRIF-26), who had autosomal affinities of a Middle Easterner. He is PF7321+ and negative on SNPs that were covered for every current J-PF7321 subclade, including negative on the Private SNPs of the Ukrainian J-PF7321*, except for CTS1969 which has no reads. So he is at J-PF7321* or J-CTS1969* in case CTS1969+
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

    Below are some important SNP calls:

    PF7321 2T+
    Y3163 1G+
    Y101509 2A-
    YP51 1C-
    CTS1969 ?? (no reads)
    Y45447 2T-
    Y27394 2G-
    BY88216 2G-
    CTS10179 2T-
    Y22521 1T-
    FT45285 1G-
    Y134194 1G-
    Y134202 1G-
    FT45279 2T-
    Last edited by Trojet; 11-01-20 at 14:32.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

  7. #432
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Since there are so many subclades discovered for J2b-M205 since first analysed four years ago, I recently analysed the BAM file of Roman era York gladiator (3DRIF-26), who had autosomal affinities of a Middle Easterner. He is PF7321+ and negative on SNPs that were covered for every current J-PF7321 subclade, including negative on the Private SNPs of the Ukrainian J-PF7321*, except for CTS1969 which has no reads. So he is at J-PF7321* or J-CTS1969* in case CTS1969+
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

    Below are some important SNP calls:

    PF7321 2T+
    Y3163 1G+
    Y101509 2A-
    YP51 1C-
    CTS1969 ?? (no reads)
    Y45447 2T-
    Y27394 2G-
    BY88216 2G-
    CTS10179 2T-
    Y22521 1T-
    FT45285 1G-
    Y134194 1G-
    Y134202 1G-
    FT45279 2T-

    Too bad that he has no read on somewhat important SNP CTS1969. However this confirmed that gladiator is M205+ and PF7321+ and so far not closer to any other branch downstream.
    In contrast as it was believed before that our Ukraine sample is closer to Roman gladiator. I think Chris has mentioned this in his article long ago.

    Trojet, since you have private SNPs of our Ukraine sample can you check him against Roman sample found in recent Roman study : Sample R1283, 771-974 CE.


    There is slim chance but anything is possible. He expressed this wish here : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post590294

  8. #433
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    Let me remind my privates SNPs:

    Vendor Name hg19 hg38 Reference Derived Q Qual Reads
    BigY700 FT73186 3500997 3632956 C G 100 Best 19 - 0
    BigY700 FT73233 4716019 4847978 A C 100 Best 5 - 0
    BigY700 FT73248 5023098 5155057 G A 100 Best 19 - 0
    BigY700 FT73253 5076255 5208214 C T 100 Best 19 - 0
    BigY700 FT73264 5327319 5459278 G A 100 Best 11 - 0
    BigY700 FT73266 5371065 5503024 C G 100 Best 19 - 0
    BigY700 FT73270 5470569 5602528 C T 100 Best 16 - 0
    BigY700 Y38687 6847413 6979372 A G 100 Best 27 A 2
    BigY700 Y38711 6895756 7027715 A C 100 Best 12 - 0
    BigY700 Y38713 6896130 7028089 A G 100 Best 25 A 2
    BigY700 Y170579 7301315 7433274 C T 100 Best 19 - 0
    BigY700 Y39000 7571509 7703468 T A 100 Best 28 T 1
    BigY700 Y39072 7706239 7838198 G T 100 Best 25 G 1
    BigY700 Y170690 8062232 8194191 T A 100 Best 22 - 0
    BigY700 Y39355 8197067 8329026 G A 100 Best 29 G 1
    BigY700 Y39369 8217800 8349759 C G 100 Best 15 - 0
    BigY700 Y170823 8693060 8825019 C T 100 Best 26 C 1
    BigY700 Y170673 13986294 11865588 T A 100 Best 23 - 0
    BigY700 Y40427 14308755 12188049 C T 100 Best 11 - 0
    BigY700 Y40428 14308756 12188050 G T 100 Best 11 - 0
    BigY700 Y40429 14308757 12188051 T G 100 Best 11 - 0
    BigY700 Y40670 14813725 12701796 A G 100 Best 25 - 0
    BigY700 Y40872 15204261 13092347 T C 100 Best 23 - 0
    BigY700 Y40891 15250380 13138466 A G 100 Best 24 A 1
    BigY700 Y170751 15370287 13258407 G C 100 Best 28 - 0
    BigY700 Y40953 15371455 13259575 C G 100 Best 27 - 0
    BigY700 Y41014 15502872 13390992 G T 100 Best 25 G 1
    BigY700 Y41808 17031211 14919331 G C 100 Best 18 - 0
    BigY700 Y42016 17422876 15310996 T C 100 Best 20 - 0
    BigY700 Y170827 17440656 15328776 A G 100 Best 16 A 1
    BigY700 18001131 15889251 C G 100 Best 17 - 0
    BigY700 Y170674 18154415 16042535 G T 100 Best 17 - 0
    BigY700 Y42596 18643236 16531356 A G 100 Best 27 - 0
    BigY700 Y42740 18909248 16797368 C G 100 Best 19 C 1
    BigY700 Y42756 18936140 16824260 C T 100 Best 28 C 1
    BigY700 Y42902 19187078 17075198 C T 100 Best 18 C 1
    BigY700 Y170608 21283280 19121394 C T 100 Best 20 C 1
    BigY700 Y43477 21676801 19514915 T C 100 Best 18 T 1
    BigY700 Y43523 21772909 19611023 T G 100 Best 16 T 1
    BigY700 Y43653 22020501 19858615 T C 100 Best 20 T 3
    BigY700 Y43687 22096841 19934955 A G 100 Best 16 - 0
    BigY700 Y43722 22180121 20018235 T A 100 Best 16 - 0
    BigY700 Y43739 22200999 20039113 C T 100 Best 21 - 0
    BigY700 Y43757 22216229 20054343 C T 100 Best 17 - 0
    BigY700 22321602 20159716 C A 100 Best 20 - 0
    BigY700 Y43918 22721203 20559317 T C 100 Best 28 - 0
    BigY700 Y44029 22904559 20742673 A T 100 Best 21 A 2
    BigY700 Y44233 23254636 21092750 A G 100 Best 18 - 0
    BigY700 Y44455 23650943 21489057 A G 100 Best 13 - 0
    BigY700 Y44541 23988658 21842511 A C 100 Best 17 - 0
    BigY700 Y44584 24431820 22285673 G A 100 Best 24 - 0
    BigY700 24460060 22313913 G A 100 Best 14 - 0
    BigY700 Y170659 28527295 26381148 A C 100 Best 13 A 1
    BigY700 Y170645 28637934 26491787 T C 100 Best 21 - 0
    BigY700 Y41778 16984627 14872747 C T 99 Acceptable 22 C 1
    BigY700 Y43816 22536727 20374841 T A 100 Acceptable 3 T 1
    BigY700 Y170826 22782005 20620119 G T 99 Acceptable 28 G 2
    BigY700 BY147406 23753002 21591116 A G 95 Acceptable 29 - 0
    BigY700 Y170585 28526063 26379916 G T 99 Acceptable 24 - 0
    BigY700 17826645 15714765 C A 89 Ambiguous 21 C 1
    BigY700 FT73161 3012238 3144197 C T 80 Low 14 - 0
    BigY700 FT73305 6070213 6202172 G A 82 Low 23 - 0
    BigY700 Y43778 22298712 20136826 T A 73 Low 27 - 0
    Dante FT73237 4835908 4967867 A G 100 Best 60 - 0
    Dante Y174629 13535255 11379579 G A 100 Best 6 - 0
    Dante Y174692 13541006 11385330 G A 100 Best 6 G 1
    Dante Y181210 11643854 G T 100 Best 15 - 0
    Dante FT73408/Y174630 16490486 14378606 G T 97 Acceptable G 1
    Dante 22624058 20462172 T A 100 Ambiguous 2 - 0
    Dante 14566015 12454215 T C 1 One reading! 1 - 0
    Dante 14635624 12523693 T C 1 One reading! 1 T 2
    Dante 15175901 13063987 T C 1 One reading! 1 T 1
    Dante 21770397 19608511 C T 1 One reading! 1 - 0
    Dante 22168195 20006309 G T 1 One reading! 1 - 0
    Dante 23372818 21210932 T C 1 One reading! 1 - 0
    Dante 23983309 21837162 G T 1 One reading! 1 - 0

  9. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    Well this was cancerous to read through x) I wish all my cousins a happy new year I hope there will be no more value based assertions with regards to dominance of haplogroups or ethnic peoples.

    My two cents on this whole mess: J2b-M205 is 99% of middle eastern origin. If the TMRCA is correct with regards to some of it's subcalades, the arriving ancestor might have assimilated in either: Albanian, Greek, Latin or Slavic population at the time. It is neither Greek, Albanian, Latin nor Slavic (Serbian) in origin. Dema seems to be certain that Vlachs (especially Kriči tribe) in areas around Montenegro are actually members of Albanian speaking population at the time. This hypothesis is most probable. However, I would really like someone who is quite knowledgeable on topics of all Vlachs in south-east Europe to give his perspective on this. Why would someone in the 15th century call Albanian population that became slavicized Vlach when it was already an established identity (either an Albanian or Slavic)?

    Also some thoughts on phenotypes of ancient European population. I think whole of Europe, especially before bronze age was 99% blonde. During the bronze age, due to some intermixing, I think mostly the tint of blonde was starting to shift to darker. Even later accounts of Roman kings' hair colour give us as far as I can remember from reading around 50% blonde or dark blonde hair. Blonde hair genes, while recessive, were definitely still dominant even in the south of Europe around the beginning of the first millennium.

    Random interesting thing about hair my hair colour: Both my parents and four of my grandparents have pitch black hair, and have had since birth. I was born with brownish hair that turned into blonde in the sun, and up until 6 years old it was mostly blonde and red, and later developed into pitch black, and is now in my 30's getting lighter again... My sister had like super light blonde hair up until 10-12 years, and then she turned brownish with some blonde strains.

    Kriçi were most likely Albanian language speakers. Being a native highland Montenegrin tribe they were probably not distinguishable from Albanian highland tribes. Their autosomal from tribal time 800 years ago was probably 100 % Southeast Europe, or extremely close to it. Which would be very similar to Albanian autosomal.

    Since we could not find J2-M205 among Albanians in the beginning i also believed in Vlach theory. I simply believed that Kriçi were Latin speakers or that they at least considered themselves Vlach or Aromun. However things are not always as they seem and truth seems to be somewhat different. I was simply forced to completely abandon Vlach theory because after further analysis and gathering of proofs like Bosch et al results which tested enormous number of Albanian Vlachs, Romanian Vlachs, Macedonian Vlachs, Aromuns, Romanians and specifically targeted Vlach and Aromun population. And the only J2-M205 Vlach sample in that entire study is from Albania, and his closest relatives are among Albanians in Gjirokaster, Greeks in Greece and Italians in Sicily. He has no connection to Vlachs whatsoever. And J2-M205 is virtually none existed among Vlachs.

    So not only that Kriçi were not a Vlach tribe, but J2-M205 is none existent in Vlachs and Aromuns. Furthermore check statistics of Albanian project on www.gjenetika.com, there are 7 Vllah results but again same as in Bosch et al, we cannot find M205 among Vlachs, but even these few samples in various branches that we have, they are all Albanian.

    J2-M205>Y22059, given by all facts and closest relatives and their disperse over Mediterranean Sea gives strong signal of being of Phoenician or Roman time expansion. We know that we were either Phoenician and Roman 2500 - 2000 years ago, but our tribal MRCA that lived 1000 ybp lost these memories long ago. His descendants considered themselves natives and they probably integrated with local population wich in these territories of Montenegro were clearly albanophone prior to slavicisation.

    Albanian language was unknown prior to 10 century CE, but that does not mean it was not present before. Since Kriçi were Montenegrin native highland tribe of Durmitor mountains, i dont see what else could they be?

    Latin was known language and if they spoken Latin that would be known, but fact that they were recorded as natives of unknown language pretty much pinpoints to Albanians.
    Last edited by Dema; 20-01-20 at 17:11.

  10. #435
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    BTW,

    I've asked the YFull guys. The quality of the R1283 doesn't allow to put in in the tree.

    But certainly you can check it manually.

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    One Molgen.org user already checked my samples.
    Here is staistics.

    He used 75 SNPs to check.
    26 in R1283 were read.
    49 are not read at all.
    All read SNPs for R1283 are with reference values.

    I.e. there is not any new branch for me and R1283.

    *** But I am still the closest match for this London gladiator.

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    TMRCA is not less than 3000 ybp.

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    Oh, sorry!

    My mistake.

    This is the results for Mediaval Roman sample. Not for gladiator.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mich Glitch View Post
    One Molgen.org user already checked my samples.
    Here is staistics.

    He used 75 SNPs to check.
    26 in R1283 were read.
    49 are not read at all.
    All read SNPs for R1283 are with reference values.

    I.e. there is not any new branch for me and R1283.

    *** But I am still the closest match for this London gladiator.



    You are 5700 years away from gladiator just as everyone else under J2-M205, i think Trojet analysis just confirmed this.
    So, since you were already compared to R1283 and you dont share any private SNP with him also, i would say that your line is still unknown.
    Most likely Bronze Age migration from Zagros/Middle East to North Caucasus and then to northern Black Sea shores.
    There is possibility that your line is also Roman expansion to Black Sea shores where Romans expanded and defeated Scythians, Sarmatians, etc.
    I would say migration happened anywhere from Bronze Age to Roman time.

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    Level
    19
    Points: 4,481, Level: 19
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Since some things were going on with Albanian DNA project and many samples were sadly withdrawn from project, as it looks there was a loss of about half of samples.
    Also this loss of samples hardly hit haplogroup J2-M205 where our Gjirokaster cluster was sadly completely wiped out. We are left only with two J2-M205 samples in project.

    Therefore i decided to post all Albanian J2-M205 samples that i managed to collect thru this time of few years of research : )
    So, there is 14 samples in 5 different branches with Y22059 dominating in the north and Gjirokaster cluster dominating in the south, both of them are CTS1969+.


    23andme Dema, Zall-Bastar, central Albania. J2b-M205 SNP.
    23andme (probably Y22059) Gjenashaj, Shestan, Montenegro J2b-M205 SNP.

    1. Haziri/Dema brotherhood Kosovo, Vulaj north Albania, Hyseni Kosovo. CTS1969+ Y22059+

    2. Celo, Cabej, Ruca, Tosk (Ferri et al), Tosk (Sarno et al), Gjirokaster Albania, CTS1969+, Gjirokaster cluster

    3. Gogo, Gjirokaster, Albania. 175 Bosch et al Andon Poci Aromun Albania, CTS1969 ?

    4. Tirana, central Albania Albanian (Bosch et al), DYS388=12 M205+

    5. Arbereshe Italia ISN59 ARB_CAL POL_AREA J-M12+ M205+
    Last edited by Dema; 04-02-20 at 15:03.

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