J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

[Ek Thom]

Hello

Please have you got more explainations about that :

"Also there is somewhat connection with French J2b1 samples, so potentially that could also be some brother line expansion from Levant to territory of France."

[Mercurial]

I wanna add to the "Greek" origin narrative that is spoken of in my village and family. It could be simply that they used to call everyone that's Byzantine a Greek back then, so when my forebears moved into Europe, it could have stuck. Anyway, it's also not unheard of the fact that there were Greek colonies in Levant and especially Anatolia (assimilation might have happened). Just a few thoughts : ]

[haplogroup_king]

The Byzantine Empire ruled the Levant for a long time to rule out that there were Tribs of the Levant in brackets (Arab) migrated to Europe

[Arnguth]

Hi everyone. I'm from Venice zone, Veneto, Italy, and I'm J-M205.
Here in italy this aplogroup is REALLY uncommon. Venice history is connected to the balkan zone as much as Greece. We have some Byzantine heritage, but it's only about other clades of j1 and j2. The M-205 is really rare. I think that my paternal line comes from Istria or the Balkan adriatic thanks to the Republic of Venice (my autosomals has Balkan, Eastern Euro and East med in significant percentage).

Don't know if this can help your research. I'm very ignorant about genetic and I'm trying to figure out from where my line comes from.

Sorry for bad english

[Arnguth]

Also, my family has no connection with sicily or southern italy.

[Pax Augusta]

Hi everyone. I'm from Venice zone, Veneto, Italy, and I'm J-M205.
Here in italy this aplogroup is REALLY uncommon. Venice history is connected to the balkan zone as much as Greece. We have some Byzantine heritage, but it's only about other clades of j1 and j2. The M-205 is really rare. I think that my paternal line comes from Istria or the Balkan adriatic thanks to the Republic of Venice (my autosomals has Balkan, Eastern Euro and East med in significant percentage).

Don't know if this can help your research. I'm very ignorant about genetic and I'm trying to figure out from where my line comes from.

Sorry for bad english

Hi Arnguth, welcome to Eupedia.

I've met a couple of Serbians who are J-M205.

The J-M205 Yfull tree

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Some maps that could help you.

[Arnguth]

Hi Arnguth, welcome to Eupedia.I've met a couple of Serbians who are J-M205.

thanks!Sorry for my ignorance. From the link it seems that every J-m205 around Europe is from a different clade? Does it mean that the italians J m205 have another origin and common ancestor, not the same of the serbs ?

[Azzurro]

Hi everyone. I'm from Venice zone, Veneto, Italy, and I'm J-M205.
Here in italy this aplogroup is REALLY uncommon. Venice history is connected to the balkan zone as much as Greece. We have some Byzantine heritage, but it's only about other clades of j1 and j2. The M-205 is really rare. I think that my paternal line comes from Istria or the Balkan adriatic thanks to the Republic of Venice (my autosomals has Balkan, Eastern Euro and East med in significant percentage).

Don't know if this can help your research. I'm very ignorant about genetic and I'm trying to figure out from where my line comes from.

Sorry for bad english

Hi Arnguth, welcome to Eupedia.

Before we can find out the history of your line, what test did you take? Was it National Geographic or Living DNA? You should transfer your results to ftdna and get the Y37 test to see under which subclade of M205 you cluster with, and from there pursue to either test for specific snps or buy BigY which is expensive but is worth it.

The maps and website that Pax Augusta sent to you can be very helpful. Yfull has all the splits and snps under J2b-M205.

I will send you the link to Ftdna's J-M172 project

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

Where you can see others who have tested positive for J2b-M205.

It looks like you are the first from region of Veneto to be positive for this subclade, which is probably due to sample bias not enough people from Veneto who tested on these public dna companies.

As you wrote that you think that perhaps your direct paternal ancestry is from Istria it would increase your chances of being under J-Y22059 which is the Balkan branch of J-M205, the first map that Pax sent correlates with J-Y22059, and you can see that J-Y22059 is around 2-3% in Istria which would make a fairly common subclade in the area. At the moment the history of J-Y22059 remains unknown and is a fairly young branch with the ancestor of this branch living around 1100 AD or 900 ybp (years before present).

As for J2b-M205 in general has been found in 4 ancient samples, 1 in Bronze Age Jordan, 1 in Bronze Age Lebanon, 2 from Iron Age Egypt (1 actually in Egypt and the other was found in a Gladiator from England who autosomally clusters with Egyptians).

[nntaleb]

As a statistician I would say the Levant, Iraq, and Arabia are oversampled compared to the rest so I would not read much into the presence there.

[Guido Anselmi]

As a statistician I would say the Levant, Iraq, and Arabia are oversampled compared to the rest so I would not read much into the presence there.

LOL, who is play-acting as Taleb?

[Dema]

HelloPlease have you got more explainations about that :"Also there is somewhat connection with French J2b1 samples, so potentially that could also be some brother line expansion from Levant to territory of France."

Hello, sorry for late reply, i seen the posts but i was traveling.. : )Regarding question, basically, when we look at our specific Balkan group of J2b1>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066 markerwise we get some relatively distant matches from Middle East that are connected with us, like already mentioned Albeshri from Qatar, or sample from Palestine. And actually many more,,, But there are also French matches at about same genetic distance. Its surnames Blais and Lamy from France, and Blair from Canada who are all very close to each other so for sure same group under the J2b1. Then now when i look at French project i see that actually one of them took bigY, its a guy that i for example match at GD 25/67, Lamy from France.So just as i suspected, he is also positive for PH4306 and most likely some brother clade to Balkan samples.So some of French samples (Close to Lamy) are J2b1>CTS1969>PH4306>BY40879, while Balkan samples are confirmed J2b1>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066.Furthermore, it would be nice if Lamy would upload his results to Yfull se we can see their analysis and where he will be placed on Yfull.Also hoping to get some Italian and Greek samples tested with bigY so we can see what is their situation within a J2b1 line. Hope this helped, also i see that you guys made many replies, im happy because of that, ill try to answer also to others : )

[Dema]

I wanna add to the "Greek" origin narrative that is spoken of in my village and family. It could be simply that they used to call everyone that's Byzantine a Greek back then, so when my forebears moved into Europe, it could have stuck. Anyway, it's also not unheard of the fact that there were Greek colonies in Levant and especially Anatolia (assimilation might have happened). Just a few thoughts : ]

Definitively possible as Greek was later official in Byzant, also since arriving from direction of Levant, we must have had contact with Greeks first.
Also dont forget our Greek match:



J2b1 generally as a particularly Mediterranean haplogroup for sure had contact with Greeks long ago. If not even with pre Greek populations but as there is more J2b1 clades this will clear out with more bigY results as there is also one other line of J2b1 that seems to colonize Greece and Balkan much earlier then we - Byzantine Levantines did.

[Dema]

The Byzantine Empire ruled the Levant for a long time to rule out that there were Tribs of the Levant in brackets (Arab) migrated to Europe

Its possible, but you have to know that J2b>J2b1 spread from Caucasus to Levant and then further South to Arabia and all down to Oman and Yemen, however when we speak about this expansion we still dont know what exactly our ancestor might have been. He was for sure Levantine, and most likely started his journey somewhere from Palestine or Lebanon - Sidon as that was advance part of Levant in that time controlled by Byzantines, but also today we have higher percentages of J2b1 there, especially Cyprus nearby with probably highest J2b1 percentage in population. Furthermore there is also our ancient DNA so everything is pointing to area of Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon. Also with TMRCA of 1200 years and all closest relatives in Levant except ourselves its very easy possible that we (Y22066 Balkan) all come from one single guy, perhaps a soldier, merchant or administration..We J2b1, are practically found in entire Middle East, except in Israel and among Jewish people. So i would say anything is possible except for Jewish origin.Also J2b1 is 15800 years old but all groups have highest TMRCA of 6100 years what would suggest expansion at that time after a solid bottleneck.That expansion could possibly be in Pre-Semitic period, even tho haplogroup today clearly has strong signal in some Semitic groups like Arabs. Even if we connect it with Semitic expansion it would be some very early ones like Akkadians or Babylonians.Hopefully more Ancient DNA testing will tell us even more detailed story in future..

[Dema]

Hi everyone. I'm from Venice zone, Veneto, Italy, and I'm J-M205.
Here in italy this aplogroup is REALLY uncommon. Venice history is connected to the balkan zone as much as Greece. We have some Byzantine heritage, but it's only about other clades of j1 and j2. The M-205 is really rare. I think that my paternal line comes from Istria or the Balkan adriatic thanks to the Republic of Venice (my autosomals has Balkan, Eastern Euro and East med in significant percentage).

Don't know if this can help your research. I'm very ignorant about genetic and I'm trying to figure out from where my line comes from.

Sorry for bad english

Hello Arnguth, congrats on this awsome haplogroup : )

Where did you test? Do you have your markers also or just basic SNP test like 23andme? And do you know to what branch you might fall under J2b1, as that would help you to know more about your specific history?
That is the best place to start, best regards.

thanks!Sorry for my ignorance. From the link it seems that every J-m205 around Europe is from a different clade? Does it mean that the italians J m205 have another origin and common ancestor, not the same of the serbs ?

I havent seen this post. J-M205 among Serbs is result of recent assimilation of Byzantine leftovers in Balkan.

As most Ethnicities in Balkan separate themselves based on religion, most of people that were historically known as Christian Orthodox Vlachs were later asimilated into Serbian ethnos based on their religion. Esspecially in Croatia and Bosnia and partially Montenegro where we today find highest percentages of J2b1 among South Slavic speaking people.

Also reason why they called them Vlachs is because they didnt actually know what they were as they were clearly not Slavic, but today thanks to genetics we know they were Byzantine Levantines autosomally mixing with native Balkan woman.

You need to test STR markers or do advance SNP test like bigY to know to what branch you belong to.

[twocla]

Hi,I´m new at this forum. My Mother, who was a Dane, always refused to tell me who my Father was. I´m born in Germany 1949. My Mother is dead since 30 Years. Recently I took an Y-test at FTAdna and, for me, the results surprisingly showed that I´m a J-M172 M205. All my matches haveSerbian or Croatian name. Now I have no clue to continue my research, anybody who has an idea ?

[Dema]

Hi,I´m new at this forum. My Mother, who was a Dane, always refused to tell me who my Father was. I´m born in Germany 1949. My Mother is dead since 30 Years. Recently I took an Y-test at FTAdna and, for me, the results surprisingly showed that I´m a J-M172 M205. All my matches haveSerbian or Croatian name. Now I have no clue to continue my research, anybody who has an idea ?

Hello, im sorry for your loss, welcome to M205, if you get these matches displayed on FTDNA then there is almost no doubt that you fall in Balkan branch of J2b1>PH4306>Y22066 where all of us are related within a maximum of 1200 years and with more distant Levantine origin. I have written plenty about this HG on this thread. Did you join any public FTDNA project and made your results visible or uploaded your STRs on Ysearch so i can look at them and give you more specific opinion? Best regards : )

EDIT: But since you see matches displayed directly on FTDNA its also very likely that you are close to modelar haplotype, so unlike me, you could probably find some closer match.
You need to compare genetic distance between you and your closest match in order to see when common relative might have lived. You can do this even with build in calculator directly on FTDNA, button near your match.

I would probably see you as a match, but reason i dont is because i have some unique differences and therefore i dont get a single match on FTDNA. Not even on 12 markers compared.
Do you get matches on 37 or 67 markers compared?

[haplogroup_king]

[QUOTE=Dema;535299]Its possible, but you have to know that J2b>J2b1 spread from Caucasus to Levant and then further South to Arabia and all down to Oman and Yemen, however when we speak about this expansion we still dont know what exactly our ancestor might have been. He was for sure Levantine, and most likely started his journey somewhere from Palestine or Lebanon}

I agree with all points you mentioned, it really makes sense.

[haplogroup_king]

[Dema]

Interesting tree, but im little confused, what would red numbers represent? TMRCA?

Also, its very basic, but i see there are Oman and Yemen branches added which are CTS1969+? Hmm im not sure how accurate is this tree :)

[twocla]

thx for your kind answer, I got matches, cousin level 2 &3, on 37 markers. I have ordered a 110 test

[Dema]

thx for your kind answer, I got matches, cousin level 2 &3, on 37 markers. I have ordered a 110 test

Yes, then you are most likely closely related to these people. Probably from a Balkan Vlach layer that was later assimilated into a Serb ethnos.
Since you get these matches so closely your ancestor might have identified himself as a Serb at that time of 1948 based on his Eastern Orthodox religion and Slavic speaking language but not necessarily from Serbia.

GD 2 and 3 is pretty close, as it means that most of 37 markers are identical with you.

I would suggest to join this project where you will also see many of us there and possibly be grouped: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

I have also done 111 markers and i have joined project so we can even practically compare each other to see when common ancestor might have lived, by my rough estimation it was somewhere before 900 and 1200 years.

[haplogroup_king]

the age of mutations are not accurate as you said but I guess the new YFull update will be similar of this one, In other hand J-CTS1969 mutation has many arab samples and J-BY40909 is a new mutation, In all lines belong J-CTS1969 have arab samples.

J-BY37657 located between yemen and oman and all samples below it from arab samples which can be a pure mutation of arabs

[haplogroup_king]

yes as u said TMRCA of the mutations

[twocla]

thx both to Dema and King, you are so kind

[Dema]

the age of mutations are not accurate as you said but I guess the new YFull update will be similar of this one, In other hand J-CTS1969 mutation has many arab samples and J-BY40909 is a new mutation, In all lines belong J-CTS1969 have arab samples. J-BY37657 located between yemen and oman and all samples below it from arab samples which can be a pure mutation of arabs

There are quite a few various mutations and groups, i see these that you mentioned and put on a tree. So CTS1969>BY40909 from Palestine and BY40909>Y22037+ from Spain. With separation from other groups with distance greater then 6100 years but Spanish samples with TMRCA of only 1100 years. Then YP13 found in Qatar and all the way northwest to Italy and England also with separation of 6100 years and TMRCA of 6100 years also there is J2b1 distant group in Ukraine that might be expansion directly from Caucasus. Or Y22075 that also become out as a solid line with solid expansion. Therefore i would say main expansion of J-M205 and of J-M205>CTS1969 happened in Pre-Arabic times somewhere near territory of modern Caucasus and Iran then with expansion to modern Levant and then more South all the way to Oman and Yemen and even few points of India. Even tho we can connect its expansion with some early Semitic cultures, and of some modern like Arabs, its origin is still remained to be seen. So except these ancinent DNAs, there is also found a extinct brother clade of J2b1 and J2b2 in Early Neolithic Iran and ancient DNA is most important when looking at ancient history. - https://j2-m172.info/2016/07/ancient...oushaki-et-al/

thx both to Dema and King, you are so kind

No problem, good luck in further investigation : )