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Thread: J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

  1. #51
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    As for J2b-M205 in general has been found in 4 ancient samples, 1 in Bronze Age Jordan, 1 in Bronze Age Lebanon, 2 from Iron Age Egypt (1 actually in Egypt and the other was found in a Gladiator from England who autosomally clusters with Egyptians).
    We have only one late sample from Egyptian mummy (769 - 560 BCE pre-Ptolemy), and in that time Egypt was conquered by Assyria where Nubian kings that held Egypt were expelled. Roman gladiator (3DRIF-26) plots right in between Copts and Sarmatians, just near Early Bronze Age J2b1 sample from ancient Jordan:

    Last edited by Dema; 20-03-18 at 01:02.

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    The origin of the J2b1 not from Iran, it is from {Fertile Crescent}

    History of the Fertile Crescent

    Most scholars believe that the Fertile Crescent was the birthplace of human civilization. The first human beings to farm and domesticate animals lived in the fertile crescent around 10,000 BCE. A thousand years later, farming was prevalent; by 5,000 BCE farmers in the fertile crescent had developed irrigation systems and raising sheep for wool.





    Because the area was so fertile, it encouraged farming of a broad range of crops. These include wheat, rye, barley, and legumes.
    By 5400 BCE, early human cities developed in Sumer including Eridu and Uruk. Some of the first decorated pots, wall hangings, and vases were created, along with the world’s first brewed beer. Trade began, with the rivers used as “highways” to transport goods. Highly decorative temples rose to honor many different gods.
    From about 2500 BCE, great civilizations arose in the fertile crescent. Babylon was a center for learning, law, science, and mathematics as well as art. Empires arose in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Phoenicia. The Bible stories of Abraham and Noah take place around 1900 BCE; while the Bible was once believed to be the oldest book ever written, it is clear that many great works were completed long before Biblical times.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/fertile-crescent-117266





  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by haplogroup_king View Post
    The origin of the J2b1 not from Iran, it is from {Fertile Crescent}History of the Fertile CrescentMost scholars believe that the Fertile Crescent was the birthplace of human civilization. The first human beings to farm and domesticate animals lived in the fertile crescent around 10,000 BCE. A thousand years later, farming was prevalent; by 5,000 BCE farmers in the fertile crescent had developed irrigation systems and raising sheep for wool.Because the area was so fertile, it encouraged farming of a broad range of crops. These include wheat, rye, barley, and legumes.By 5400 BCE, early human cities developed in Sumer including Eridu and Uruk. Some of the first decorated pots, wall hangings, and vases were created, along with the world’s first brewed beer. Trade began, with the rivers used as “highways” to transport goods. Highly decorative temples rose to honor many different gods.From about 2500 BCE, great civilizations arose in the fertile crescent. Babylon was a center for learning, law, science, and mathematics as well as art. Empires arose in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Phoenicia. The Bible stories of Abraham and Noah take place around 1900 BCE; while the Bible was once believed to be the oldest book ever written, it is clear that many great works were completed long before Biblical times.https://www.thoughtco.com/fertile-crescent-117266
    Yes i would agree and i know most of these things, i ment more distant origin of J2b - Caucas, and Iran (J2b-M102* - extinct brother clade of J2b1 and J2b2 from Early Neolithic Zagros), while J2b1 clearly has nearby Fertile Crescent origin and expansion. Everything is pointing out that way. Cities you mentioned Urok and Eridu were Sumerian, and Sumerians spoken Language Isolate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate While their neighbors and also conquerors Akkadians unlike Sumerians were Semitic speakers.On Sumerian ruins Babylon has rise - Semitic culture with Sumerian elements,, Our Early Bronze Age Jordan ancient DNA (2500 - 2300 BCE) corresponds with these cultures.
    Last edited by Dema; 21-03-18 at 17:13.

  4. #54
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Also regarding theory of ancient origin of J2b in Caucasus is based on that Early Neolithic Zagros Sample as also Maciamo says on Eupedia and many people agree with him:
    The oldest known J2b sample comes from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic site of Tepe Abdul Hosein in western Iran, dating from approximately 10,000 years ago. This is the strongest evidence that J2b actually originated in the mountains of the Zagros or the Caucasus, rather than in the plains of the Fertile Crescent.
    But this sample is already fully developed J2b - J2b-M12(xcts560,Z620) So probably one of J2b1s and J2b2s brother clades with expansion to territory to West Iran, Zagros mountains. But when looking at Yfull tree, particularly samples from Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and furthermore entire Middle East show more diversity and higher formed date and TMRCA rather then Caucasus or Iranian samples.Therefore i would say more therall ancient DNA testing is needed to be able to complete this story but i would not be surprised if entire J2 has origin in Middle East rather then in Caucasus/Iran.Also about J2b1:
    J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect.
    Its clear that J2b1 has Levant origin as highest diversity and all of our ancient DNA is found there rather then in Caucasus or Iran. Also in modern day living people highest percentage of J2b1 along with highest diversety is found in area of Fertile Crescent, especially Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan. With strong signal in some Semitic groups like Arabs. This also testifies about Middle Eastern origin rather then Caucasian or Iranian one to J2 as a whole. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/ - formed 31600 ybp, TMRCA 27700 ybp. Also i think its pretty clear that Balkan branch of J2b1 is closely related to Middle Eastern samples like Palestinian and Qatar one rather then being a "distinct" line as was already said in first page of this thread.Open for debate?

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    Country: Yemen



    Open the link, it shows the formation of Arabian Gulf for 15,000 years https://youtu.be/i92bGbZhqz0

    1





    2




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    4




    5





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    Well, paragroup GHIJK was spread from Middle East all the way to Caucasus and Zagros. With possible origin in West Asia 50k ybp:


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    I think that, it should be helpful for who doesn't know the fact

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    look at this video and focus on the Arabian peninsula

    https://youtu.be/uLahVJNnoZ4

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    new sample from Qatar under J-Y22075* https://www.yfull.com/tree/j2/

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    Quote Originally Posted by haplogroup_king View Post
    new sample from Qatar under J-Y22075* https://www.yfull.com/tree/j2/

    Yes, cool. So, J2b1>CTS1969>PH4306>PH1089>B247>PH2514 or J2b1b1a.
    There are also Turkish and Armenian samples that are under the same subclade, and also most likely some of Saudi Arabian, United Arab Emirates, Iraqi and Lebanon samples fall under the same branch. While there is Jordan sample PH1089+ but B247- and PH2514-.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    There have been two J2bs found in Western Neolithic Iran at Hajji Firuz Tepe site. 6016-5899 BCE and 5887-5724 BCE https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/31/292581 Most likely J2b*, as there was J2b* already found in Western Early Neolithic Iran that was fully developed (J2b-M12(xcts560,Z620)) and most likely extinct brother clade of J2b1 and J2b2. However, there is chance that these samples could be positive for J-M205 or J-Z1825, it remains to be seen after data is made public. Not really a big deal for J2b since we already have that older sample (8205–7756 BCE) from nearby area of the family of some of the first farmers of Iran from Tepe Abdul Hosein, but this just refortifies founding that some branches of already fully developed J2bs have been present in West Iran since Early Neolithic times.

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    Anyways, i would like to bring focus on J-M205 and probably the most informative paper when it comes to researching J2b1 from probably one of most knowledgeable people when it comes to J-M172 research:
    So the most likely M205 expansion origin seems to be the Western Fertile Crescent. For the subclades CTS5338, Y22524, CTS10179 +13 seems from Iberic Middle Ages, YP13, YP51 +4 is probably not much younger then M205 and still of Fertile Crescent origin while PH4306, {Y22075} is only slightly younger then M205 and likely has the same origin and expansion.
    Document: https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibl...ph1089-y22066/

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    New version of Yfull has arrived yesterday. There have been some changes all over. J-M205 got its formed date changed to 16000 ybp and TMRCA to 6000ybp.Also Oman, Lebanon, Yemen, Saudi and Ukraine samples have been placed under J-PF7321 with TMRCA 6000 years.Now it looks like this:



    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/


    Also, its interesting to see that J2b-Z1825>Y31143 where there was 5 Palestininans and 1 Armenian before, grouped with 12200 years TMRCA, now Palestinians have been placed under the Armenian sample where Palestinians have only 250 years TMRCA while Armenian 12000 years TMRCA.https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y31143/ I believe this could be proof of J2b2 having Caucasus origin, while J2b1 still seems to have Fertile Crescent origin of expansion.

    So after this changes and all additional things i believe that haplogroup J2 was spread all the way from Fertile Crescent to Caucasus and Zagros Mountains. While J2b2 could have Caucasus expansion while J2b1 Levantine one. At least when it comes to two major lines, while there is extinct j2b* line found in Neolithic Zagros.So, something like this:

    Last edited by Dema; 03-04-18 at 17:22.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi guys,
    I (YF01501) am J-PF7321*.
    FTDNA didn't read CTS1969. But YSEQ has read it as negative.
    I'm almost sure YF12907, YF12115, YF11699, YF11632 have the same situation.
    Check CTS1969 for more information.

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    Because our age estimation methodology isn't adapted to process Big Y VCF files and many of our YTree branches now consist of samples based on VCF files, we wish to consider whether our methodology can be improved to include VCF file data.

    For this purpose, we would like to study Hg 38 VCF files of customers who joined YFull by initially submitting Hg19 BAM files. Our age estimation methodology will be adjusted, for test purposes, to accommodate data from the Hg38 VCF files. Results from using the adjusted methodology with VCF files will be compared to the existing Hg19 age estimation results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mich Glitch View Post
    Hi guys,I (YF01501) am J-PF7321*.FTDNA didn't read CTS1969. But YSEQ has read it as negative.I'm almost sure YF12907, YF12115, YF11699, YF11632 have the same situation. Check CTS1969 for more information.
    Hello, best regards! Can you tell us more about your paternal line, or your discoveries? If i remember correctly, you were the first sample tested negative for CTS1969?
    Yes, this group is interesting, but its very distant when looking geographically. Its spread from South - Yemen and Oman, all the way to North - Ukraine? I think some SNP expert needs to make some sense out of all this new bigYs that we got into a J-M205 lately. Perhaps crew from J2-M172 project will make some new analysis.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    - Can you tell us more about your paternal line, or your discoveries?
    - My paternal line from Poland (modern Ukraine) since 1700.

    - If i remember correctly, you were the first sample tested negative for CTS1969?
    - I've tested in 2007, so maybe I was the first. But now we have a lot samples CTS1969-. And unfortunately some tested persons have this position non-read.

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    Main hypothesis for now is the way via Ottoman Empire by numerous invasions to my ancestors' area.
    Something in 14th - 17th cc.

    But the case of the Roman gladiator from England tells us there are many other possibilities.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I've ordered WGS test in Dante Labs, so I hope to improve my data.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    You can not judge on the J2b2 because there is sample located in the top of it.

    For your information

    The Armenian sample has Syrian origin which is from Kasab village.

    so I think we need more samples to be more accurate.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haplogroup_king View Post
    You can not judge on the J2b2 because there is sample located in the top of it. For your information The Armenian sample has Syrian origin which is from Kasab village.so I think we need more samples to be more accurate.
    Im not judging based on one sample, but this group is very interesting as it has one of higher TMRCAs within the J2b2. Well this info is very interesting, if origin of Armenian sample is from Armenian populated town in Syria that completely changes the story... Since this TMRCA predates IE languages and goes all the way to very beginning of Early Neolithic.
    Thank you for these valuable informations.

    For me researching J2b2 along with J2b1 has few interests, as J2b2 is brother clade of J2b1. Then my maternal (uncle) Ydna is J2b2, and also J2b2 is one of primary lines within the Albanian population, along with E-v13 and R1b.
    J2b2 for sure had Indo-European expansion, but origin is still remained to be seen. There is a chance J2b2 could originate around Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Kuwait,, its an alternate theory to Caucasus or Iranian one.

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    By the way.
    I have another ancestral line from Poland too. J2b2. I'm still waiting for BigY results.
    The most distant known ancestor is Piotr Włostowic (c. 1080 – 1153), or Peter Wlast.

    There are many haplotype variants for his descendants (look here). It's normal for deep pedigrees, unforunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mich Glitch View Post
    By the way.
    I have another ancestral line from Poland too. J2b2. I'm still waiting for BigY results.
    The most distant known ancestor is Piotr Włostowic (c. 1080 – 1153), or Peter Wlast.

    There are many haplotype variants for his descendants (look here). It's normal for deep pedigrees, unforunately.
    Im going little offtopic here, i would say your uncle is J2b2>Z1825>M241>L283>Z638>Z1296>Z1297>Z631+
    Maybe J-Y29718 as it was already found in Poland.


    While my uncle one is J2b2>Z1825>M241>L283>Z638>Z1296>Y20899>PH1751


    Funny coincidence that we have similar paternal and maternal Ydnas :)
    It is for sure from Bronze age Indo-European expansion into Europe.


    I will reply later regarding your Ydna and my opinion since im still doing some hobby research in that direction, hopefully soon.
    Im interested to hear would you consider maybe more distant Jewish origin of your paternal haplogroup rather then Ottoman Empire one?
    It might be connected with Yemenite Jews, together with Roman gladiator sample that is somewhat connected to you.

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    I played little with calculators and STRs yesterday, trying to see genetic difference within PF7321+ and CTS1969- where we have Ukraine, Oman, Yemen, Saudi and Lebanon samples.

    So IDs, 364868 Oman, 214400 Yemen, M6123 UAE, N53374 Ukraine, 779972 Lebanon, 755698 Saudi. (Please let me know if i got any of sample wrong)

    Yemen and UAE samples are pretty close, GD 7/111 and they show TMRCA of only 400 years.
    With Oman sample TMRCA goes up to 1650 years. Adding Lebanon sample TMRCA went up to 2900 years.
    Then adding Saudi sample it goes 3,350 years. And finally adding Ukraine sample we got 4300 years TMRCA.

    It is not much different from what Yfull estimated = 6000 years, these variations are normal, it is just to see relative genetic distance.

    So i think we are getting brother clade of CTS1969 developed here. And regarding STRs, Ukraine sample is still isolated with no one really close and it might be distant migration, probably before Common Era.
    So i believe Yfull tree will further change in future and some samples will be regrouped.

    What we need is some expert SNPs and STRs analysis again. (I will probably learn SNPs after i take bigY)

    Regarding Roman Gladiator there has been article before, where also our Ukraine sample have been mentioned:

    For the analysis currently 15 M205+ chrY NGS results are available with varying coverage and data access. Those results so far build 10 subhaplogroups (some tentative) mostly without more then two equivalent SNPs. See tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b13DT26.chrY.bam was ancestral to some of them (PH4306, M280, PF7315/Z1621, YP154, YP56, YP22/Z28761, YP7) many had no-call/s (YP17/Z8764, CTS1969, Y18947, PF7320, PF7370, Z38486, PH1089, PH2734, PH2514, PF7342, YP106).
    A non-exhaustive check of novel/private SNPs was also done with no shared derived variant except an ambigous result for Hg19,b37 8197067, G->A, YFS090749, 1G- 1A+ which is derived in N53374/YF01501 Vinnytsia Ukraine 44A+. So unfortunately no more informative matches substream to M205 seem to exist currently to further reconstruct the origin and ancestry of 3DRIF-26 with the following conclusions:


    • the low-coverage and short chrY length of 3DRIF-26 could fail to detect a relation to some of this basal subhaplogroups, especially the samples derived for Y18947 and the gre-3 Greek Hallast et al 2014 sample also having restricted sequence lenght.
    • The lineage of 3DRIF-26 could have died out
    • Any sample being M205+ and negative for YP17/Z8764 and CTS1969 (including subgroups) is particularly interesting for further Y-NGS testing, especially if having British paternal lineage ancestry to exclude a relation to 3DRIF-26.
    • A NGS resequencing of 3DRIF-26 with higher read depth could facilitate the discovery of shared subhaplogroups of M205
    • A standard Y-STR DYS marker sequencing (at least a Y23 panel, preferably the Y37 FTDNA panel) could allow to scan Y-haplotype databases for possibly interesting matches
    Well, now we have some new bigY tests so it would be nice to analyse them too as they are also CTS1969-

    Discoveries and statements by Ted Kandell (OGF) about 3DRIF-26:
    an extinct mtDNA H5* C5349T C6041T and H5* isn’t found in Arabia or Egypt.
    [Davidski/Eurogenes qpAdm:] His Anatolian Neolithic is 52.8%, extremely high, the same as Sardinians who are 50%-60%. His next best fit, pretty close, is Samaritan 94% Yoruba 6%. After that the chi squared gets much higher and the probability rapidly decreases.
    Also, he wasn’t beheaded but his head was bashed in the “coup de grace” given to defeated gladiators. He wasn’t buried with grave goods, either.
    “J2e” M314/M12 xM241 was found by Shen et al. (2004) in 2 of 20 (10%) of Yemenite Jews
    Full article: https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogeno...ddle-eastener/


    It probably exists among Yemenite Jews, but that is normal as entire M205 is somewhat proto Semitic, and potentially pre Semitic.
    Today generally, haplogroup is spread much or less in entire Middle East, but to be honest i barely know any Jew that belongs to J2b1.
    Even tho it looks like its present in some isolated Jewish groups;

    There are two samples that i know of, one is Mumbai Jew from India, and another is maybe Sephardi Jew from Spain (still need confirmation) but generally J2b1 is very rare, and almost none-existent among modern Jews, but its presence is highest among all other populations of Middle East

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