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Thread: J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mich Glitch View Post
    I should be PF7321* because Y45447 is negative and CTS1969 negetive too (checked by YSEQ).

    Can you explain, why should you be PF7321* since Y45447 and CTS1969 are negetive?

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    Yes. Sure.

    If you have at least one non-read low SNP (in my case Y45447 or CTS1969), you don't have * after SNP name.
    So, I'm shown as
    PF7321 'cause my CTS1969 is not read by FTDNA. I've checked it in YSEQ. It is negative as Y45447 too.

    I.e. I am
    PF7321*.

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    Almost sure, that YF12115 has one or two non read SNPs.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mich Glitch View Post
    Yes. Sure.
    If you have at least one non-read low SNP (in my case Y45447 or CTS1969), you don't have * after SNP name.
    So, I'm shown as
    PF7321 'cause my CTS1969 is not read by FTDNA. I've checked it in YSEQ. It is negative as Y45447 too.
    I.e. I am
    PF7321*.
    Correct!

    I explained the issue with CTS1969 at the beginning of this thread a while ago (not read by BigY), but apparently some didn't bother to read or pay attention to it. Turns out the "Balkan Cluster" (J-Y22059,Y22066), is now correctly placed under CTS1969 at YFull, just like I said it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    The "Balkan Cluster" (J-Y22059,Y22066) phylogeny currently goes something like this: J2b1-M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066. So this cluster is also under the CTS1969 branch. The reason why YFulll doesn't have it under CTS1969 is because this SNP is not well covered by the BigY, and the two samples have no-call for this SNP. Below CTS1969, the "Balkan Cluster" also shares PH4306 and Y22075 with scientific NGS samples from the Levant area, and a BigY sample from Qatar who hasn't uploaded to YFull, as can be seen here: http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1
    So the "Balkan Cluster" (J-Y22066,Y22059) does not form a "distinct" J2b1-M205 branch as suggested by the YTree (due to CTS1969 being no call and other samples not at YFull), but at the same time, currently it has no close relatives.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Correct!

    I explained the issue with CTS1969 at the beginning of this thread a while ago (not read by BigY), but apparently some didn't bother to read or pay attention to it. Turns out the "Balkan Cluster" (J-Y22059,Y22066), is now correctly placed under CTS1969 at YFull, just like I said it should be.
    Yes its for a while like that but also new update recently happened, we were talking about Balkan branch back then, which is apparently more correctly placed now but here we are talking about his results.
    So he is CTS1969- and Y45447- and it was nowhere said that if you dont have SNP or two correctly covered Yfull does not put * (asterisk) behind your terminal SNP.
    Also how come that Yfull was able to then correctly place for example Balkan branch while it still cant confirm that he is negative for CTS1969 and perhaps some other SNP so it can assign him asterisk sign at least?

    Is this only temporary situation on Yfull and will it change in future? Also what is needed for him to know more precise subclade? Does he has to wait for someone who is closer to him so his branch downstream of PF7321 could be identified after sharing a same SNP? Also can there be anything else found in his SNP list, isn't there a SNP to which only he is positive?

    As you know im not expert in SNPs, i hope ill understand them better after my bigY arrives. This SNP coverage looks a bit messy, hopefully technology will improve in future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mich Glitch View Post
    Almost sure, that YF12115 has one or two non read SNPs.

    Going by STRs, i am much more sure about him that he is PF7321* then you are.
    But going by logic you should be too. I only didnt understand technical situation by Yfull.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mich Glitch View Post
    Yes. Sure.

    If you have at least one non-read low SNP (in my case Y45447 or CTS1969), you don't have * after SNP name.
    So, I'm shown as
    PF7321 'cause my CTS1969 is not read by FTDNA. I've checked it in YSEQ. It is negative as Y45447 too.

    I.e. I am
    PF7321*.
    I understand, thanks. Also i have been able to find some kind of explanation in Yfull faq that i believe has to do something with your results being shown temporary as they are:


    * Not used for analysis - This phrase appears after certain SNPs located with the Check SNPs tool. These SNPs will not have a star rating because they are not used for sample analysis for a variety of reasons, such as being located in a homological region or because YFull has no, or only one, sample showing the SNP.


    * Localization - the determination that a Novel SNP lies within a particular haplogroup. The phrase "Additional localizations for variant" followed by a red number, as used in the Ambiguous tab of Novel SNPs, means that the SNP was observed in one or more additional haplogroups.

  8. #108
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I got my BigY 500 results.

    FTDNA has assigned me as Y22063. I have some novel and none matching variants. According to our project admin Trojet, i should form a new third parallel line with other two samples under Y22063, so i am Y22063* so far. TMRCA of Y22063 could increase. But to confirm all this i need to upload on Yfull, which i will do.

    My BAM file is currently being generated.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Serbian, obviously.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Serbian, obviously.
    You have Serbian ancestry, obviously.

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    Keep stalking me boy. You will be disappointed when you find out I have no drugs on me, narcoman.

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    ^


    Nobody is stalking you, junkie. Time to leave your mothers apartment.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gash View Post
    You have Serbian ancestry, obviously.

    I think you are up to something as Dibran has also noticed lol:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I pointed out once to Fustan on Apricity that his autosomal was more Slavic shifted than normal for Albanians, and that is when he became vehement and started his drivel towards me. I also didn't know much about autosomal then(but we live and we learn).

    Fustan clearly plots away from us, when looking autosomally. If i remember correctly he was one of most Slavic shifted, going way out of our Albanian plotting circle.
    Hes closest match (autosomally which are his close relatives lol) is Bosnian Slavicized Vlach (J2b1), and there is also I2a close Serb match as you noticed.
    He hangs with Serbs all the time in discord, he backups them, and he does not speak a word of Albanian language. He is outcast as much as one can be.
    Even tho i have 18% East (Balto Slavic), i still plot within Albanian plotting circle (a bit Tuscany shifted), and nothing like this outcast.

    Regarding him calling you Narco, i will just say lol because you are like 100x more athlete then he will ever be in his miserable life.

    If Fustan likes it, i have nothing against his Serbian connection, but if possible leave me out of it, and dont infect my threads with your psychological problems. Rather go work, help you mom, help your neighbor then wasting life being sour and hating everything.
    I wish if i could debate with him, or argue about anything, but guy is such a low-iqer that its impossible to argue anything with him. His intention is just to provoke and act like some gnom, which again proves he has nothing better to do in life lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I think you are up to something as Dibran has also noticed lol:




    Fustan clearly plots away from us, when looking autosomally. If i remember correctly he was one of most Slavic shifted, going way out of our Albanian plotting circle.
    Hes closest match (autosomally which are his close relatives lol) is Bosnian Slavicized Vlach (J2b1), and there is also I2a close Serb match as you noticed.
    He hangs with Serbs all the time in discord, he backups them, and he does not speak a word of Albanian language. He is outcast as much as one can be.
    Even tho i have 18% East (Balto Slavic), i still plot within Albanian plotting circle (a bit Tuscany shifted), and nothing like this outcast.

    Regarding him calling you Narco, i will just say lol because you are like 100x more athlete then he will ever be in his miserable life.

    If Fustan likes it, i have nothing against his Serbian connection, but if possible leave me out of it, and dont infect my threads with your psychological problems. Rather go work, help you mom, help your neighbor then wasting life being sour and hating everything.
    I wish if i could debate with him, or argue about anything, but guy is such a low-iqer that its impossible to argue anything with him. His intention is just to provoke and act like some gnom, which again proves he has nothing better to do in life lol.
    He is a good Swedish boy. ;)

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Not only is this haplogroup most common and diverse among Serbs, but Serbian ethnographers who studied your village revealed to us that your family were Serbs who became Albanized because they converted to Islam.

    You can cope how much you want and do all sorts of mental gymnastics but anyone who sees that 2+2=4 will know the truth of this haplogroup.

    Also, to Dibran, my paternal line has been Albanian since the ethnos started, kidnapping slavic brides while yours (R1a) and Demas (J2b1) paternal ancestor came into our lands in Huno-Avaric cages speaking broken Serbian (Dema knowing this language fluently today ironically).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Even tho i have 18% East (Balto Slavic)
    You are heavy Slavic influenced autosomally for Albanian standards! LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    You are heavy Slavic influenced autosomally for Albanian standards! LOL
    man I'm dying laughing, Dema is hilarious

    how far will a man go to deny his paternal heritage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    man I'm dying laughing, Dema is hilarious

    how far will a man go to deny his paternal heritage?
    His haplogroup is more common among Serbs than among Albanians.
    Serbs have 4-5% J2b-M205, and Albanians less than 1%.
    I have seen Croatians and Bulgarians which carry J2b-M205.

    This Croatian nationalistic activist is J2b-M205. His name is Frane Čirko.





    Does he look like Dema?

    Both of them, Dema and this Croatian dude are descendants of this Vlach tribe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This thread is closed. Once again some of our Balkan members prove they can't communicate without personal attacks.

    I will consider when to re-open it.


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  20. #120
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post


    Not only is this haplogroup most common and diverse among Serbs,
    J-M205 entered in Serb and South Slav ethos only since they managed to Slavicize their native territories in Montenegro and surrounding areas, in fight with Serbicized Drobnjaks, and in Late Middle Ages acording to Ottoman defter from 1475 following Krici tribe names. Just as many other clades did, probably as Albanian in origin E-v13>PH1246 also did.


    Map that you quoted is J-M205, J1b1a, previously known as J2b1. This haplogroup is neither most common neither most diverse among Serbs as you say. All Serb samples have brother clades with higher TMRCA in Palestine, Qatar, Jordan, Armenia. Most of them have TMRCA of 800 years and no Slavic relatives anywhere in the world going upstream the genetic tree. If you would bother to read as was already explained many times on Foleja (http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topi...sg1152#msg1152 also here http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topi...sg5371#msg5371 ) but also in this thread, rather then being barely interested, you would understand these things. J2-M205/J2b1a is most common in Cypruss, 6 per cent according to public / annonymus researches. Also its found in entire Middle East all the way south, in Oman and Yemen. This map showing Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Egypt like there is no J2-M205 is just lack of information avialable also probably one of first tries of Maciamo to make more precize map of this haplogroup.
    Actually we have Albanian found in both Gheg area of Albania, and Tosk area, also me in Kosovo. Where these 3 Albanians have higher diversity then all Serbian J-M205 sampels.


    J2-M205 is most diverse in Middle East, where practically all major clades have Middle Eastern samples that split at some point. Two oldest M205 ancient DNA were found in Middle East, Jordan and Lebanon. https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibl...ph1089-y22066/


    Serbs were overhyping this haplogroup among them for some time, but after bigY test and more Y67s it was clear its recent arrival among them. Haplogroup is not distributed among Serbs or South Slavs, either on Balkans as this map suggests but rather very isolated in two hot spots, Croatian Krajina known for Vlach population, and Montenegro known for Albanian and Latin speaking population. As mentioned above J-M205 is Middle Eastern native, and not Serbian. Even tho there is more groups in Balkan, looks like this one arrived recently thru Byzantine provinces of Middle East. Most likely Lebanon, Palestine and surroundings.

    I form brother clade to all these assimilated Vlachs (Y22066), where separation time happened probably around 1000 years ago (waiting Yfull to finish). Which is time when these people were Byzantine Romans or Latin speaking Montenegrins so Vlachs at best. None of them falls into my sublcade inside of Y22063, and Serbian TMRCA cannot be confirmed in my case.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    but Serbian ethnographers who studied your village revealed to us that your family were Serbs who became Albanized because they converted to Islam.
    You can cope how much you want and do all sorts of mental gymnastics but anyone who sees that 2+2=4 will know the truth of this haplogroup.

    It is not "coping", but going by facts, its simple STRs, SNPs, genetic distance and history. Not that i want to degrade you, but to be honest it is not something that you proven so far to understand very well. Better if you hanged and asked questions in Foleja, then in discord with Serbs.

    In my region but also wider my family as brotherhood were probably among the first Islam acceptors, which allowed them to take control over lands. We later joined with clanish arriving Catholic Albanians, but they were for sure not alien to us, neither we to them. Later it become fully Muslim community, but it was ethnically pure Albanian. Only Albanian language was spoken. No one becomes Albanian because he becomes Muslim lol.

    Book is issued by ethographer that you mention in year 1930, where it had to get thru vast Yugoslavian anti Albanian propaganda and cenzorship. Ethographer (Urosevic) just as his books claims that Kosovo was 100 % ethnically Serbian prior to 17 century, prior to North Albanian clanish Gheg expansion supported by Ottomans. Also he describes Albanians as thief's and animals. Therefore ethnographer was only recording arriving Albanians that emigrated from North Albania into Kosovo as Albanians. All others were put in Serb category. Truth is that there was a good portion of Catholic Albanians. But also even more Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs, with Slavic names due to their prior Bulgarian but also later Serbian Orthodox church but they never spoken Serb language at home which at the end defines their ethnicity. There was a good portion of Kosovar Albanians that joined with arriving clans and my family is just one of these cases.

    Serbian historians argue that all Kosovo Albanians that do not belong to clan are Albanised Serbs. My family is nothing special in that book, as there is great deal of Kosovar Albanians recorded as Serbs in that book, in fact all families that lived in Kosovo prior to 17 century were recorded as Serbs with shady or no explanation at all. In my case, they concluded that i am from old family therefore i was Orthodox so that was enough for them. I am just the first of them tested. As genetic results say, maybe i cannot yet prove that i was Albanian long ago (because of my rare line, and not yet many Albanians tested), which is not even relevant in this case, but what i can prove is that my line was never Serbian neither Serb speaking.

    Due to a genetic fact that only i have medium mutation markers DYS389II 27 and DYS448 20, and only i identify with Albanians, while none of them has these values there and not much variations there and none of them identifies with Albanians. Even tho Serbs tested 10x more people then Albanians did. Simply split between me and Serbs happened 1000 years ago, when they were not Serbs, and not in last 200 years like Serbian ethnographer suggests. Krici the Latin speaking tribe is most likely brother clade to me, Serbs assimilating them does not mean that i am also automatically Serb lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Also, to Dibran, my paternal line has been Albanian since the ethnos started, kidnapping slavic brides while yours (R1a) and Demas (J2b1) paternal ancestor came into our lands in Huno-Avaric cages speaking broken Serbian (Dema knowing this language fluently today ironically).
    At times when my Roman Levantine ancestor arrived both Illyrians and Slavs were put in Avar cages, i have been thinking about it. He must have found entire Balkan savage and rude at that time, just as i find it today :)
    To be honest Avars were no joke, good that we got rid of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    His haplogroup is more common among Serbs than among Albanians.
    Serbs have 4-5% J2b-M205, and Albanians less than 1%.

    I have explained everything to you since you contacted me on private, dont post here since it was obvious you knowledge regarding this haplogroup and facts were very weak.
    Even tho i explained you TMRCA, clades and separations you still make same mistakes in conclusions. Simply as i understand you think that all Y22066 had to be Serb at one point. Which is ridiculous.

    You tell me on private that i should listen to Petar Demic, Nebojsa Novakovic, Fustan and Dibran, while its three guys whos genetic results were at some point analysed by me.
    Fustans results i recently analysed on Foleja, Dibrans results i analysed on our FTDNA page and on anthrogenica, also Nebojsha results since he was not understanding simple phylogeny when looking at Yfull lol.
    Dibran is good guy and fast learning, i dont recall he ever mentioned J2b1, also give my best regards to Petar Demic. Its time he accepts facts also, i was telling him that he should do autosomal long ago since its also important and he was saying that its useless only Ydna matters, as i see that you are into autosomals, maybe you can explain him that autosomal is very interesting and not usless as he thinks.

    If ill listen to anyone it will be Albanian admins Flor and Leki, also ill listen to myself lol, and not these that you mentioned. TBH Fustan is among least knowledgeable people in our project, why the hell should i ever listen to him?



    Here are my FTDNA matches, i dont see a single Serb there. Calculating distance, these that i match (1000 years ago) were not Serbs at that time. Tomorrow they can become Chinese just as they recently become Serbs, will that make me Chinese also?



  21. #121
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    Also for these that want to better understand Kosovo history, North Albanian clans, Orthodox and Catholic Kosovar Albanians, but also later Muslim ones, also events that followed its best for begging to read Noel Malcolm book, British academic and historian: Kosovo, A Short History.

    I have retyped important part from his book regarding this discussion:


    Early Ottoman Kosovo, 1450s-1580s
    By the time of Patriarchate was re-established at Peć, the town of Peć itself may already have gained an absolute majority of Muslims. At the same time, there is an increasing volume of evidence that parts of Western Kosovo had a significant Albanian population, evidence which goes beyond anything that can be demonstrated for the medieval period. Some modern Albanian scholars have put these phenomena together - the growth of Islam and the apparent growth of an Albanian population - to argue that what er are seeing in both cases is the emergence of a previously invisible mass of ethnic Albanians, who had been disguised in the records under Slav Orthodox names. It is claimed that the loss of authority by the Peć Patriarchate in this area between 1455 and 1557 had made t possible for these Albanian to detach themselves from Serbian control; and that white ethnic Serbs would have felt a continuing (and, after 1557, a revived) attachment to their Church which would have prevented the from turning to Islam, the ethnic Albanians would have felt no such scruples about adopting this new religion. Thus, it is suggested, the people who became Muslims were nearly all of them ethnic Albanians, and the creation of a Muslim majority was the same time merely the revelation of an already existing Albanian majority.

    Some aspects of this argument are unconvincing on a priori grounds. Ethnic Albanian are unlikely to have felt estranged from the Serbian Church merely because it was not their 'national' Church; this is to project a modern idea of 'national' loyalties a little too far into the past. Orthodox Albanians in southern Albania and Greece, for example, remained loyal to the Greek Church and its liturgy for many generations, even though they may spoken only Albanian in the home. Nor, conversely, were Slavs incapable of converting to Islam: it was happening all the time in the neighboring territories of Macedonia and Novi Pazar, as well as in Bosnia and Hercegovina. (As early as 1580 the 6,000-odd households of the Novi Pazar district were almost entirely Muslim.) Many of Albanian names which crop up in the early Ottoman registers for Kosovo are Catholic Albanian Christian names, such as 'Gjin' (john) and 'Doda' (a diminutive of Dominic); and it is not clear why Albanian who had long been Serbian Orthodox should have regarded the Catholic Church, with its Latin liturgy and Italian-trained priests, as more deserving of 'national' loyalty than a Church based in their own locality.

    On all these grounds, one might feel tempted to reject this argument entirely. Those who do so (and this includes almost all Serbian historians) explain the growth of an Albanian population in Kosovo during the early Ottoman period in terms of physical immigration: it is suggested that Albanian from the Malësi were encouraged by the Ottomans to settle in Kosovo, that many of these turned to Islam to gain advantages of superior status, and that those Slavs who became Muslims were not merely Islamicized but, sooner or later, Albanianized as well.

    Although the Albanian historians argument seems unconvincing for general reasons, it nevertheless comes buttressed with some intriguing evidence from the Ottoman registers. The Ottoman officials usually noted which heads of the family were 'new arrivals' in their places of the residence: out of 121 new arrivals in the nahiye of Peć in 1485, the majority had Slav names. In the sancak of Prizren in 1591, only five new arrivals out of forty-one bore Albanian names; and in a group of Kosovo towns in the 1580s and 1590s there were twenty-five new Albanian immigrants and 133 with Slav names - several of them described as coming from Bosnia. This evidence counts strongly against the idea a mass immigration from northern Albania. Other more general arguments against that idea are based of relative population sizes and rates of growth. The population of Kosovo during this period was much bigger than that northern and central Albanian, and its rate of growth was actually lower. This is not what one would expect if a large overflow from the Albanian Malësi were flooding into Kosovo. All arguments which depend on identifying Slav or Albanian names are of course subject to doubts about whether the names really did indicate ethnic-linguistic identity - which is, of course, one of the key points at issue. In a previous discussion of this question it was suggested that although names are not very trustworthy in any particular case, the broad pattern probably does indicate both the nature of the dominant culture and the direction of flow of any tendencies to assimilation.On that basis it is reasonable to say that a Serbian Orthodox culture was overwhelmingly dominant in Eastern Kosovo: the first Ottoman register, of 1455, yields only a small minority of Albanian names, and many of these involve an Albanian-named father and a Slav Orthodox-named son ('Radislav, son of Djon'; Radovan , son of Djin'). 'Arnaud', which suggests that their Albanian identity was a distinguishing feature, setting them apart from the most od the surrounding population. In the 1570s there was a mahalle (quarter) of Janjevo called 'Arbanas'; roughly half of its heads of families had Slav or mixed Slav-Albanian names. According to some Albanian historians, this shows that many apparent Slavs were really Albanian-speaking Albanians. Simpler explanation, surely, would be that the small Albanian minority in Janjevo was gradually being assimilated to the Serbian-speaking majority.

    On the other hand, there is clear evidence of Orthodox names appearing in Albanian-language forms - which implies that adherence to the Orthodox Church did not necessarily involve assimilation to a Serbian-language culture. While the majority of the Albanian names in Western Kosovo were Catholic, a significant minority were Orthodox, including several of the fifteen Orthodox families that constituted the entire Orthodox population of Peć in the 1590s. (Also in Western Kosovo in this period were 'Gjon, son of an Orthodox priest', and 'Gjonja, an Orthodox monk'). Again, Albanian historians argue from this that most of the Orthodox population in Kosovo was in fact Albanian; it would surely be simpler to suppose the the majority of the Orthodox (who do have Slav names) were Serbian-speaking and a minority Albanian-speaking, and that the Albanians were not assimilated linguistically because there was also a significant population of Catholic Albanians in Western Kosovo - as the other Albanian names clearly show.

    The evidence scrupulously presented by one leading Albanian historian, Selami Pulaha, does not really support the argument which he then tries to build on it. in 1591, for example, in the nahiye of Hoça (north of Prizren), there were 883 heads of family with Slav or other orthodox names, 196 with mixed Albanian-Slav names and 248 with purely Albanian names; Pulaha's conclusion is that the area was 'completely Albanian'. A group of Kosovo towns in the same period yields 330 purely Slav Orthodox names and 217 mixed Albanian-Slav or purely Albanian; Pulaha deduces that the urban population was 'almost completely Albanian'. Similarly, the claim that only Albanians became Muslims can be argued only on the basis of the prior assumption that all people with Slav names were really Albanians. Of the Muslims of Hoça in 1591, fifty-four had Albanian names and nineteen Slav names; of those in the Has district (near Gjakova) in 1571, 166 had Albanian names and 37 Slav names. What this suggests is not that Slavs never became Muslims, but that a higher proportion of Albanians did so; and the reason for that catholic Albanians were even less well supplied with priests in the early Ottoman period than they had been under Serbian rule. What a straightforward reading of this evidence would suggest is that there were significant reservoirs of a mainly Catholic Albanian-speaking population in parts of Western Kosovo; and evidence from the following century suggests that many of these eventually became Muslims. Whether Albanian-speakers were a majority in Western Kosovo at this time seems very doubtful, and it is clear that they were only a small minority in the east. On the other hand, it is also clear that the Albanian minority in Eastern Kosovo predated the Ottoman conquest.

    Finally, one other social process was taking place in this period which is also relevant to arguments about the migration of Albanians into Kosovo: the formation of the northern Albanian clans. As was mentioned in the first chapter, these clans appear to have been formed out of groups of pastoral families in the Malësi from the late Middle Ages onward: the main stimulus must have been the requirement of self-protection after the old system of powerful land-owning families (Balshas, Dukagjins, and so on) had been broken up by the Ottoman invasions and the disruptions of the fifteenth-century revolts. Dome of the oldest clans preserve detailed family trees in their oral tradition, going back to founder-ancestors in the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries; other were formed from sub-branches of these older clans.

    The key development, it seems, was the adaptation of the social structures of pastoral life to the purposes of territorial self-defenses, with several of the clans of the northern Malësi, the process by which vëllazëris (brotherhoods) came together to form clans can be traced through Venetian and Ottoman documents, to the period between 1455 and 1485: what happens in these cases was that the members of the dominant brotherhood would impose their name on the whole clan, and on the territory which the clan defended. And at some time in the sixteenth century the Ottoman authorities gave up even trying to impose their normal administrative or feudal system in those areas, letting the clans run their own affairs in virtual 'zones of self-government' instead. Curiously, the development of the clan system in Scotland was taking breakdown central power and feudal structures in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. Scottish clans also developed the idea of common ancestry: 'at first this relationship might clearly be seen as fictitious or honorary, but in time the metaphor of kinship tended to be converted into belief that real blood kinship existed.

    Thus, increasingly, Albanian from the Malësi would bear the name of their clan as a kind of surname: Berisha, Këlmendi, Shala and so on.There are many people with these names in modern Kosovo, and it is clear that, from the early seventeenth century onward at least some of their ancestors must have come into Kosovo as immigrants from the Malësi. ('At least some' is a necessary qualifications, because we cannot assume that the process of agglomeration - of people joining a clan and taking its name - never took place on Kosovo soil.) However, there are also many Kosovo Albanian who do not bear clan names. Serbian writers sometimes argue that all these Albanian must therefore be Albanianized Serbs, as if all genuine Albanians would originally have belong to clans. but since we know that there were non-clan Albanian in Kosovo as early as the fifteenth century, that clans were only formed in areas which (unlike Kosovo) lacked governmental security, and indeed that many of the clans in the Malësi were still only in the process of formation at that time, this particular version of the argument about 'Albanianized Serbs' can simply be dismissed.

    pages 111 - 115, Kosovo, a short history. N. Malcolm.

  22. #122
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    Also regarding Krici tribe, as Serbs labeled this entire cluster, problem is that their Krici surnamed members dont have any serious STR or SNP test.
    Therefore they cant even identify Krici cluster. My advice is to test Krici surnames members at higher resolution, before bringing conclusions.

    As it looks our overall TMRCA goes prior to Krici tribe, therefore expansion could have happened before Krici tribe. But probably not far away from Montenegro and surrounding areas.

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    Dema's ancestors before albanization were Serbs. This is the fact.
    Dema deny own Serbian origin and claim that his ancestors were Vlachs.

    Dema has 18% Eastern Europe autosomally because his ancestors were Serbs and that is heritage from Dema's Serbian ancestors.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Dema's ancestors before albanization were Serbs. This is the fact.
    Repeating something 1000 times like parrot does not make it a fact. For facts you need facts. There is not a single genetic fact, even if i wanted to believe this, as explained above genetic research does not agree with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Dema deny own Serbian origin and claim that his ancestors were Vlachs.
    I am clearly Albanian, i say we were Vlachs because when looking genetically, looks like we arrived thru Roman Empire Fertile Crescent provinces and surroundings. Also Krici tribe that is Y22066+, are also recorded as Montenegrin Latin speaking tribe, so Vlachs.
    All tested Y22066 so far were Latin speakers at one point, that is the only thing what connects them with other Vlachs like Aromuns.
    Actually Y22066, is what separates Serbs in Croatian Krajina and RS in Bosnia from Croats and Bosnjaks where they are historically known as Vlachs, its Vlach element in them :) But also significant E-v13. E-v13, which can be directly from Albanians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Dema has 18% Eastern Europe autosomally because his ancestors were Serbs and that is heritage from Dema's Serbian ancestors.
    I remember we already discussed this - https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post549366
    Serbs dont Plot with Croats and Slovens because of Albanian, Vlach and Bulgarian influence is pulling them South.

    I plot just fine with Albanians:
    (Eurogenes v2 K15)

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    Again: Krajina Serbs are the most norther shifted Serbs.
    More northern shifted = less Vlach influence, deal with it!
    Krajina Serbs ploting same northern as Bosnian muslims and Croatians.

    There are Kriči among Bosnian Muslim such as for example muslim family Tetarić from Banja Luka J2b1-M205 (cyrillic Тетарић) https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...95850#msg95850

    New Krajinian Serbs R1a
    Bižić (Бижић) from Kordun https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...95853#msg95853
    Obradović (cyrillic Обрадовић) from Bruvno (cyrillic Брувно) in Lika https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...95833#msg95833
    Sudar and Roksandić (cyrillic Судар / Роксандић) https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.p...95861#msg95861
    Roksandić is from Banija or Slavonia. Sudar is Krajina Serbs we don't know from which region yet. Surname Sudar exist among Serbs from Dalmatia, Lika and Kordun.

    Krajina Serbs have more R1a than Serbs from Serbia.

    There are also plenty of new results of Krajina Serbs which are I2a in the last 7-8 days.

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