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Thread: J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

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    @Dema, we should take into account that there are two distinct Serb populations, autosomally.

    One is Serbs from Serbia. These are the "real" Serbs as they origin from the population of medieval Serbia. During the Ottoman invasion some of them moved north into Syrmia and Banat. These Serbs hold significant paleobalkan admixture as they plot near Romanians and Albanians.

    Second group is the Serb minority of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, popularly called "western Serbs". In the past they were called "Vlachs". However, autosomally they can’t be distinguished from their neighbors: Croats and Bosniaks.

    So "western" Serbs probably can't be of "real" Vlach origin because they plot away from Romanians (Vlachs) and Albanians. However, it seem that they partly descend from Vlachs as they poses an elevated frequency of E1b haplogroup, comparing to Croats and Bosniaks. However, that "Vlach" signal was not sufficient to significantly change their autosomal profile.

    @Bachus, your argument that - the “western Serbs” can’t be of Vlach origin because they are autosomally distant from Vlachs - is correct, but neither can they be of Serb origin, using the same criteria. ;)
    Neopisivo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    @Dema, we should take into account that there are two distinct Serb populations, autosomally.

    One is Serbs from Serbia. These are the "real" Serbs as they origin from the population of medieval Serbia. During the Ottoman invasion some of them moved north into Syrmia and Banat. These Serbs hold significant paleobalkan admixture as they plot near Romanians and Albanians.

    Second group is the Serb minority of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, popularly called "western Serbs". In the past they were called "Vlachs". However, autosomally they can’t be distinguished from their neighbors: Croats and Bosniaks.

    So "western" Serbs probably can't be of "real" Vlach origin because they plot away from Romanians (Vlachs) and Albanians. However, it seem that they partly descend from Vlachs as they poses an elevated frequency of E1b haplogroup, comparing to Croats and Bosniaks. However, that "Vlach" signal was not sufficient to significantly change their autosomal profile.

    @Bachus, your argument that - the “western Serbs” can’t be of Vlach origin because they are autosomally distant from Vlachs - is correct, but neither can they be of Serb origin, using the same criteria. ;)
    His claim about Vlachs origin of Krajina Serbs is nonsense.
    If he said that Montenegrins or Serbs from southern/eastern Serbia are of Vlach origin this would make more sense but still not be completely true.
    We don't have samples of medieval Serb to compared to modern Serbs. Migtht be that western Serbs are closer autosomally to medieval Serbs than Serbs from Serbia.
    Western Serbs are autosomally closer to Croatians not just than to Romanians/Bulgarians but also than to Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins.

    E-V13 amomg Bosnian Serbs is about 14% and anong Krajina Serbs 12-13%. Both Bosnian and Krajina Serbs have less E-V13 than Serbs from Serbia and quite less than Montenegrins.
    Among Krajina and Bosnian Serbs the strongesst is I2a, than R1a and E-V13 is on the third place. Among Serbs from Serbia I2a is the strongest and R1a and E-V13 are prertty elevated. In some regions of Serbia is stronger R1a and ib some E-V13, but if we look whole Serbia these haplogropups has very similar %.

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    We don't have samples of medieval Serb to compared to modern Serbs. Migtht be that western Serbs are closer autosomally to medieval Serbs than Serbs from Serbia.
    Might be, but we can't judge based on something that is just a speculation.

    But you know that the Serbs from Serbia are the majority of all Serbs. In case you were right, and the Serbs from Serbia realy changed after the medieval times, then what genetic signal, and how strong, could have been to shift almost entire Serbian population to another autosomal cluster? If you take a look into the PCA plot, you could see that the gap is quite big.

    Could we identify that genetic signal betwen 15th and 19th century?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    His claim about Vlachs origin of Krajina Serbs is nonsense.
    Well, the fact is that these people were called "Vlach" in almost all historical sources. On the other hand, it is also the fact that genetics do not see them as "real" Vlachs. Maybe only part of them were of a real Vlach origin, and others were just locals who switched to the Vlach lifestyle or got the Vlach status.

    So what is the real origin of Croatian Vlachs? If we favour genetic and linguistic criteria, the answer is simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Well, the fact is that these people were called "Vlach" in almost all historical sources. On the other hand, it is also the fact that genetics do not see them as "real" Vlachs. Maybe only part of them were of a real Vlach origin, and others were just locals who switched to the Vlach lifestyle or got the Vlach status.

    So what is the real origin of Croatian Vlachs? If we favour genetic and linguistic criteria, the answer is simple.
    They were just in a "vlach status", same as Cathlolic Bunjevci. They are genetically far away from real ethnic Vlachs such as Aromanians.
    Even Krajina Serbs who are E and J were not Latin speakers when they arrived to Krajina. They were Serbian speakers (and autosomally same as I2a/R1a Serbs) because they assimilated in the middle age by I2a and R1a Serbs.
    Interesting thing about genetic of Krajina Serbs is the presence of R1a-Z280>Y2613. This haplogroup almost does not exist among Serb east of Vrbas river, but among Serbs west of Vrbas river has solid %.
    Krajina Serbs mostly originater from eastern Herzegovina. But there are significant % of natives of Donji Kraji (western Bosnia) among them. Natives of Donji Kraji lingustiocally were assimilated by eastern Herzegovinians in western Bosnia. Natives of western Bosnia were ikavians and eastern Herzegovinians were ijekavians. Many Serbian Krajina families originated from natives of western Bosnia and they were ikavians in the past. Ancestors of Nikola Tesla originated from Kupres, they are cousins with Serbian families Svitlica, Orelj and Milinović from Kupres. Slava of all of them is Đurđevdan.

    In this document from the year 1596 Serbian leaders from Pounje (western Bosnia) wrote to Austrians. Reason is fight against the Ottoman. Serbs from Pounje wanted to be allies of Austrians against the Ottomans.
    It's written in cyrillyc in ikavian dialect. These Serbs were in the "vlach status" but Austrian call them Serben (Serbs).
    Bishof Radoslav und undere Hautpleute der Serben von Pounje schreiben Erzherzog Ferdinand wegen gemeinsamer Aktion gege die Türken - Bishof Radoslav from Pounje and other leaders of Serbs write to herzeg Ferdinand because of common action against the Turks.
    As you can see Serbs from western Bosnia were in a "vlach status" but their real ethnicity were Serbian and Austrian confirmed this. Dema pretend that don't understand the difference between "vlach status" (social category) and Vlach as nation - Latin speaking paleo-Balkanites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    They were just in a vlach status, same as Bunjevci. They are genetically far away from eaql Vlachs such as Aromanians.
    Even Krajina Serbs who are E and J were not Latin speakers when they arrived to Krajina. They were Serbian soeakers because they serbized in middle age by I2a and R1a Serbs.
    Krajina Serbs mostly origuinater from eastern Herzegovina. But there are significant % of natives of Donji Kraji (western Bosnia) among them. Natives of Donji Kraji lingustiocally were assimilated by eastern Herzegovinians in western Bosnia. Natives of western Bosnia were ikavians and eastern Herzegovinians were ijekavians. Many Serbian Krajina families originated from natives of western Bosnia and they were ikavians in the past. Ancestors of Nikola Tesla originated from Kupres, they are cousins with Serbian families Svitlica, Orelj and Milinović. Slava of all of them is Đurđevdan.
    These natives in Donji Kraji, even the ones from Herzegovina were not called "Serbs" before they became Serb Orthodox. Present day Western Bosnia was even called "Turkish Croatia" long after the Ottoman occupation, only later to be renamed to "Bosnian Krajina". Many of the locals converted to Islam, some became Serb Orthodox due to the lack of Catholic priests and monks after the destruction of the churches.

    It is not surprise that the people of that area are genetically and linguistically closest to present day Croats because the change of the religion does not affect genes. Only those who converted to Serb Orthodoxy later called themselves Serbs (19th century). In a similar manner the Muslim population of the area started to call themselves Bosniaks (as of 1992).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    In this document from the year 1596 Serbian leaders from Pounje (western Bosnia) wrote to Austrians. Reason is fight against the Ottoman. Serbs from Pounje wanted to be allies of Austrians against the Ottomans.
    It's written in cyrillyc in ikavian dialect. These Serbs were in the "vlach status" but Austrian call them Serben (Serbs).
    Bishof Radoslav und undere Hautpleute der Serben von Pounje schreiben Erzherzog Ferdinand wegen gemeinsamer Aktion gege die Türken - Bishof Radoslav from Pounje and other leaders of Serbs write to herzeg Ferdinand because of common action against the Turks.
    As you can see Serbs from western Bosnia were in a "vlach status" but their real ethnicity were Serbian and Austrian confirmed this. Dema pretend that don't understand the difference between "vlach status" (social category) and Vlach as nation - Latin speaking paleo-Balkanites.
    The text is written in ikavian (Croatian) dialect. Real Serbs were using different language ("Old Serbian").

    Hopefully I can read it and in the text it says: "vlaški sinovi" ("Vlach sons"). It is obvious that they called themselves Vlachs, not Serbs. In the original record it was written - "Wallachen" (bottom of the page).

    Next indicative word is “biškup” which means “bishop” in Croatian. It is typical Catholic and Croatian word, never used by Serb Orthodox Church.


    The German text which "translates" vlachs to "Serbs" is obviously from more recent times. Some western sources, especially Austrian, were "classifing" all Cyrilic texts as "Serbian" according to the level of their "knowledge".
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 25-07-18 at 00:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    The text is written in ikavian (Croatian) dialect. Real Serbs were using different language ("Old Serbian").

    Hopefully I can read it and in the text it says: "vlaški sinovi" ("Vlach sons"). It is obvious that they called themselves Vlachs, not Serbs. In the original record it was written - "Wallachen" (bottom of the page).

    The German text which "translates" vlachs to "Serbs" is obviously from more recent times. Some western sources, especially Austrian, were "classifing" all Cyrilic texts as "Serbian" according to their "knowledge".

    That is the knowledge of 19th century. Serbs on this forum stacked in 19th century.
    They were proud to be in a "vlachs status" and because of that they called thmselves "vlach sons." In that time "vlach status" = more freedom.
    Serben is not written in recent time this is your fantasy. Austrians are not "Serbian mythomans" to falsify history.
    People from that document were Orthodox Serbs and their language were Serbian shtokavian ikavian. In the document name of priest is Radoslav, and names of other Serbian leaders are Miloš, Dojčin, Rak, Bogdan, Vranješ, Manojlo, Tomaš, Radohna, Radoje, Živko, Vojin.. there is no Vlach names. All of this names are Serbian, only Tomaš can be also Croatian.
    People from document have nothing to do with real Latin speking paleo-Balkanite Vlachs.

    Question for you: This people were not real Latin speaking Vlachs, it's but obvious. What they were Serbs or Orthodox Croatians?

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    Priest Radoslav called themself first protopop and than biškup.
    Priest Radoslav was an Orthodox priest and leader of 30 priest. Od hristijanskih sinov, mi protopopa Radoslav, biškup pounskih i poglavnik i zapovidnik trideset popov i pravitelj hristijanske vire...
    Document is written on cyrillic and Croatians never used cyrillic, especially not in year 1596.
    In 16th century a lot of Orthodox Serbs were ikavians in western Bosnia, later they ijekavized by eastern Herzegovinian Serbs. Until 25 years ago ikavian Serbs still exist around Kupres, Livno and in some parts of Dalmatia.
    My origin is from Dalmatia, from 100% Serbian village. My ancestor often used the phrase " Isu krsta mi" such is written in this document by priest Radoslav.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    They were proud to be in a "vlachs status" and because of that they called thmselves "vlach sons."
    That is nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Serben is not written in recent time this is your fantasy.
    Then, when is the German text written? There is the source mention below the fascimile which mentions Wallachians.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Austrians are not "Serbian mythomans" to falsify history.
    Oh, yes, they were financing the Serbian language reform in 19th century. They were actively creating the Serb nation according to their agenda. They were financing the creation of the first Serbian dictionary based on the older Croatian ones. Read more about the work of Jernej Kopitar and others who used their power and "discrete right" to decide what should be called "Serbian" and what not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    People from that document were Orthodox Serbs and their language were Serbian shtokavian ikavian. In the document name of priest is Radoslav, and names of other Serbian leaders are Miloš, Dojčin, Rak, Bogdan, Vranješ, Manojlo, Tomaš, Radohna, Radoje, Živko, Vojin.. there is no Vlach names. All of this names are Serbian, only Tomaš can be also Croatian.
    People from document have nothing to do with real Latin speking paleo-Balkanite Vlachs.
    The names are Slavic, what makes you think that they can't be Croatian? Ikavian dialect is Croatian without any doubt. The Croatian medieval texts were mostly written in ikavian dialect, also in ijekavian. Serbian texts before 19th century were using so called "Old Serbian" which was similar to Bulgarian. Serbian culture was a completely different bird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Question for you: This people were not real Latin speaking Vlachs, it's but obvious. What they were Serbs or Orthodox Croatians?
    The word used in the text for a church leader is “biškup”, which means “bishop” in Croatian. It is typical Catholic and Croatian word, never used by Serb Orthodox Church. I can't say whether they were already Orthodox then, but the context of the document indicates the they were Catholic soon before the event. The Serb Orthodox word is "episkop".

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    There was no Catholics in Pounje in year 1596. Catholics from this area disappeared in period 1522-1536.
    Priest Radoslav call themselves biškup because he speak with Austrians. When Tito arrived Africa he represents self among African tribes as "tribal chief of Yugoslavia."
    My ancestors always spoke biškup and never biskup. Village Biskupija near Knin was known as Biškupija in speach of local Serbian population.
    People from document were not Catholics, not in year 1596 in that part of Bosnia. Even if their ancestors once were Catholic, they were Orthodox in 1596 when is document written.
    One name from document is knez Vranješ. Surname Vranješ exist among Serbs from western Bosnia, Dalmatia and Kordun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    There was no Catholics in Pounje in year 1596. Catholics from this area disappeared in period 1522-1536.
    Priest Radoslav call themselves biškup because he speak with Austrians. When Tito arrived Africa he represents self among African tribes as "tribal chief of Yugoslavia."
    That is another nonsense. Austrians speak German. The text is written in Croatian!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    My ancestors always spoke biškup and never biskup. Village Biskupija near Knin was known as Biškupija in speach of local Serbian population.
    People from document were not Catholics, not in year 1596 in that part of Bosnia. Even if their ancestors once were Catholic, they were Orthodox in 1596 when is document written.
    One name from document is knez Vranješ. Surname Vranješ exist among Serbs from western Bosnia, Dalmatia and Kordun.
    You “serbified” complete Croatian history and culture.

    Read this:

    The shrine of Our Lady of Biskupija, or St. Mary of Croatia, is situated in the village of Biskupija, 5 km southeast of Knin, the former church and cultural centre of the Croatian state in the Middle Ages. Archaeologists have discovered the foundations of five churches in that village, dating from the period of Croatian rulers from the 9th to the 11th century. St Mary's church was the residence of the Bishop of Knin, who was Bishop of Croatia from 1040 to 1522. The earliest known figure of Our Lady in Croatian art was discovered by archaeologists in that same church on a part of the stone partition wall, which separated the shrine from the church nave. It is still venerated as Our Lady of the Great Croatian Vow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    That is another nonsense. Austrians speak German. The text is written in Croatian!!!!



    You “serbified” complete Croatian history and culture.

    Read this:
    Orthodox Serbs with Serbian names wrote text in cyrillil in Croatian language in region where in 1596 there was no any Catholic Caroatian. Tell me more about this, it's very funny to me!

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1a5

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    Is it possible divide the thread?
    J2b1 section and "balkan" section?
    Honestly, I am really tired listening your neighborhood conversations.

    :)

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    @Dema, we should take into account that there are two distinct Serb populations, autosomally.

    So "western" Serbs probably can't be of "real" Vlach origin because they plot away from Romanians (Vlachs) and Albanians. However, it seem that they partly descend from Vlachs as they poses an elevated frequency of E1b haplogroup, comparing to Croats and Bosniaks. However, that "Vlach" signal was not sufficient to significantly change their autosomal profile.
    Wonomyro, autosomal components can drastically change thru few generations. We cannot expect west Serbs to plot near Aromanians or Albanians. Not that Krajina and RS Serbs have only higher E1b in compare to Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovenians, but what i already explained in addition to E1b there is significant J2-M205 portion in them. J2-M205>Y22059 is connected to Montenegrin Latin speaking tribe Krici, it is clear Middle Eastern Roman signal that for sure was Latin speaking Vlach prior to identify with Serb.

    What is interesting is that there is almost no J-M205>Y22059 in Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovens while majority of Serbian J2-M205>Y22059 is found exactly in Croatia and RS in Bosnia. According to Serb project J2-M205 and Ev13 are 30% in Lika. They must have been Orthodox Vlachs, who because of their religion later identified with Serbs rather then with Catholic Croats.
    Also note that Slavic haplogroups could eventually always come in while Vlach ones could not. Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before.

    Look at J2-M205 samples from Serb project, its not evenly distributed among them but rather on two hot spots both known for Vlach settlements.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mich Glitch View Post
    Is it possible divide the thread?
    J2b1 section and "balkan" section?
    Honestly, I am really tired listening your neighborhood conversations.

    :)

    I agree with Mich Glitch, this is not place to debate Serbian and Croatian language differences, even me posting that Kosovo history post was too much. I would like to ask all to direct their conversation into debating J2-M205 and things relevant for this haplogroup

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Wonomyro, autosomal components can drastically change thru few generations. We cannot expect west Serbs to plot near Aromanians or Albanians. Not that Krajina and RS Serbs have only higher E1b in compare to Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovenians, but what i already explained in addition to E1b there is significant J2-M205 portion in them. J2-M205>Y22059 is connected to Montenegrin Latin speaking tribe Krici, it is clear Middle Eastern Roman signal that for sure was Latin speaking Vlach prior to identify with Serb.

    What is interesting is that there is almost no J-M205>Y22059 in Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovens while majority of Serbian J2-M205>Y22059 is found exactly in Croatia and RS in Bosnia. According to Serb project J2-M205 and Ev13 are 30% in Lika. They must have been Orthodox Vlachs, that because of their religion later identified with Serbs rather then with Catholic Croats.
    Also note that Slavic haplogroups could eventually always come in while Vlach ones could not. Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before.

    Look at J2-M205 samples from Serb project, its not evenly distributed among them but rather on two hot spots both known for Vlach settlements.


    You a are total idiot whith you claim.
    Why you deny presence of J2b1-M205 among Croatians and Bosnian muslims? I showed you muslim family Tetarić from Banja Luka which is J2b1-M205, and there is more Bosnian muslims which are J2b1-M205. I know several Croatians who are J2b1-M205.
    Even if Lika Serbs are 30% E + J it's still minority of their total haplogroup. Majority of Like Serbs belong to Slavic+Germanic (northern) haplogroups. N-Y7313 is Slavic according to Poreklo.

    Albanians have about 25% Slavic haplogroups and Aromanians have over 30% Slavic haplogroups and nobody from the Serbian side claim that Albanians/Aromanians are of Slavic origin.
    All south Slavs have paleo-Balkanic influence, and paleo-Balkanites such as Albanians, Greeks, Romanian and Aromanians have Slavic influence, it's from middle age.

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    There is maybe 2 Croats and 2 Bosnjaks with J-M205>Y22059
    Cirko and Jurcevic are Croats. Other Bosnjak that you mention is Porovic, btw he plots near Bulgarians.

    All others are Serbs, who actually used to be Vlachs. They are Serbs, only because of Slavicization of their native territories and because of their Orthodox religion which later made them identify with Serbs.

    They become Slavs and they were Orthodox so what else could have they become except for Serbs?

    Its same with Sandzak Albanians, their territories were Slavicized recently so because of their Slavic language and Muslim religion they say they are Bosnjaks.

    Krajina Serbs and RS Serbs are Serbs just as much Sanzdaks are Bosnjaks. Serbs are heavily Vlach influenced you like it or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    There is maybe 2 Croats and 2 Bosnjaks with J-M205>Y22059
    Cirko and Jurcevic are Croats. Other Bosnjak that you mention is Porovic, btw he plots near Bulgarians.

    All others are Serbs, who actually used to be Vlachs. They are Serbs, only because of Slavicization of their native territories and because of their Orthodox religion which later made them identify with Serbs.

    They become Slavs and they were Orthodox so what else could have they become except for Serbs?

    Its same with Sandzak Albanians, their territories were Slavicized recently so because of their Slavic language and Muslim religion they say they are Bosnjaks.

    Krajina Serbs and RS Serbs are Serbs just as much Sanzdaks are Bosnjaks. Serbs are heavily Vlach influenced you like it or not.
    Comparation of Krajina Serbs and Sandžaklije is idiotic. Sandžaklije have +70% Alabanian haplogroups and they were Albanian speakers until few decades. Autosomal of Sandžaklije is pure Gheg Albanian.
    Krajina Serbs are have predominantly Slavic haplogroups, and there are autosomally the closest to Croatians and Bosnian muslims.
    I know 5-6 Croatians which are J2b1-M205.

    Are Krajina Serbs who are I2a, R1a, I1 and N2 also Vlachs?

    You remind me to one Romanian idiot from Serbian one forum who claim that south Slavs are 97% Vlach and 3% Slavic. According to him even I2a and R1a south Slavs are of Vlach origin.
    Behavior of you and that Romanian dude is very Gypsy.
    If you are a Vlach than go back to Romania, stop pretend to be Albanian!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Comparation of Krajina Serbs and Sandžaklije is idiotic. Sandžaklije have +70% Alabanian haplogroups and they were Albanian speakers until few decades. Autosomal of Sandžaklije is pure Gheg Albanian.
    Krajina Serbs are have predominantly Slavic haplogroups, and there are autosomally the closest to Croatians and Bosnian muslims.
    I know 5-6 Croatians which are J2b1-M205.

    Are Krajina Serbs who are I2a, R1a, I1 and N2 also Vlachs?

    You remind me to one Romanian dude from Serbian one forum who claim that south Slavs are 97% Vlach and 3% Slavic. According to him even I2a and R1a south Slavs are of Vlach origin.
    Behavior of you and that Romanian dude is very Gypsy.

    Do you know what your problem is? That when you lose in argument you start to twist, go off topic and insult people.
    I have asked you specifically not to post spam here since its J2-M205 thread, and what you do? You start spamming it even more.
    I have reported your insults now, also im not debating with you anymore until you grow up and until you will psychologically be ready to accept facts without insulting people or act like that.

    Comparation between Krajina Serbs and Sandzaklije is not stupid. They both claim they are something which they are not, based on their Slavicization and religion.

    Read one more time what i wrote and im not going to reply anymore to you since you cant either behave or debate on respectful way but on some barbaric way, and i wont allow you to pull me also on that level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Do you know what your problem is? That when you lose in argument you start to twist, go off topic and insult people.
    I have asked you specifically not to post spam here since its J2-M205 thread, and what you do? You start spamming it even more.
    I have reported your insults now, also im not debating with you anymore until you grow up and until you will psychologically be ready to accept facts without insulting people or act like that.

    Comparation between Krajina Serbs and Sandzaklije is not stupid. They both claim they are something which they are not, based on their Slavicization and religion.

    Read one more time what i wrote and im not going to reply anymore to you since you cant either behave or debate on respectful way but on some barbaric way, and i wont allow you to pull me also on that level.
    Krajina Serbs are not predominantly of Vlach origin. They are less Vlachs influenced than Serbs from the other regions. Claim of same Croatians that Krajina Serbs are serbized Croatians have more sense than your idiotic claim about their Vlachs origin. If Krajina Serbs are Vlachs than Bosnian muslim and Croatian are also Vlachs, because Krajina Serbs are autosomaly identical as Bosnian muslims and Croatians.
    On the other hand vast majority of Sandžaklije are of Albanian origin.
    Case of Sandžaklije is similar as case of Arvanites in Greece.

    You did not answered to me. Are Krajina Serbs who are I2a, R1a, I1 and N2 Vlachs?
    I2a, R1a, I1 and N2 together are over 70% among Krajina Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Orthodox Serbs with Serbian names wrote text in cyrillil in Croatian language in region where in 1596 there was no any Catholic Caroatian. Tell me more about this, it's very funny to me!
    It is "funny to you" because your knowledge is poor.

    Catholic church was using Cyrilic script (western type) in Croatia and Bosnia (especially Franciscans) when using Croatan language.

    The region of Pounje mentioned above is the region near Una river (thus the name). The main city in the region is called Hrvatska Kostajnica (Croatian Kostajnica). The Croats were living there all the time.

    During the early 18th century two schools are opened in the city. One school was operated by Catholic Missionary Church of “St. Antun Padovinski”, while the second schools was run as a Serbian Public School.
    Kostajnica suffered greatly during the Croatian War of Independence. A large part of the Croatian population were expelled or killed by rebel Serbs in 1991 and the city was incorporated into the Republic of Serbian Krajina. Houses and buildings belonging to Croats were burned and looted, including the baroque church, the medieval apothecary, and the eighteenth-century Franciscan monastery. The only piece of the city's cultural heritage left was the castle by the river built by the Frankopans. Kostajnica was put back in Croatian control following military victories by the army in August 1995, and the Croat population expelled slowly began returning.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvatska_Kostajnica

    (Others, sorry if this looks like an off topic. I'll try to get back to the subject)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    It is "funny to you" because your knowledge is poor.

    Catholic church was using Cyrilic script (western type) in Croatia and Bosnia (especially Franciscans) when using Croatan language.

    The region of Pounje mentioned above is the region near Una river (thus the name). The main city in the region is called Hrvatska Kostajnica (Croatian Kostajnica). The Croats were living there all the time.





    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvatska_Kostajnica
    Why people from document have Serbian or Orthodox names such as: Radoslav, Miloš, Radoje, Vranješ, Vujica, Manojlo, Živko, Vojin, Slavuj...?
    Those people were Orthodox without doubt. Priest Radoslav call themself proto-pop. Pop is Orthodox priest, and Castholic priest is fratar.

    As I said Vranješ is quite common surmame among Krajina Serbs. Vranješi are probably R1a-M458, because they are of same origin as Serbian Krajina families Bursać, Tankosić and Bauk and all of these families are R1a-M458.
    Bursać (cyrillic Бурсаћ) https://www.poreklo.rs/2012/02/14/bursać/

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Wonomyro, autosomal components can drastically change thru few generations.
    Yes, but not simultanuously on the large scale. If one population lacks the cretain component it can't get it out of the blue. There must be another much larger population to mix with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    We cannot expect west Serbs to plot near Aromanians or Albanians. Not that Krajina and RS Serbs have only higher E1b in compare to Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovenians, but what i already explained in addition to E1b there is significant J2-M205 portion in them. J2-M205>Y22059 is connected to Montenegrin Latin speaking tribe Krici, it is clear Middle Eastern Roman signal that for sure was Latin speaking Vlach prior to identify with Serb.

    What is interesting is that there is almost no J-M205>Y22059 in Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovens while majority of Serbian J2-M205>Y22059 is found exactly in Croatia and RS in Bosnia. According to Serb project J2-M205 and Ev13 are 30% in Lika. They must have been Orthodox Vlachs, who because of their religion later identified with Serbs rather then with Catholic Croats.
    Also note that Slavic haplogroups could eventually always come in while Vlach ones could not. Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before.

    Look at J2-M205 samples from Serb project, its not evenly distributed among them but rather on two hot spots both known for Vlach settlements.

    I agree the there is a noticeable signal of Vlachs ancestry in the Croatian and Bosnian Orthodox. It is very likely that The "real" Vlachs were those who initialy brought the Orthodox religion to the westen parts. The rest were obviously the later assimilated locals from the Ottoman side of the border.

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