J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

Is it possible divide the thread?
J2b1 section and "balkan" section?
Honestly, I am really tired listening your neighborhood conversations.

:)


I agree with Mich Glitch, this is not place to debate Serbian and Croatian language differences, even me posting that Kosovo history post was too much. I would like to ask all to direct their conversation into debating J2-M205 and things relevant for this haplogroup
 
Wonomyro, autosomal components can drastically change thru few generations. We cannot expect west Serbs to plot near Aromanians or Albanians. Not that Krajina and RS Serbs have only higher E1b in compare to Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovenians, but what i already explained in addition to E1b there is significant J2-M205 portion in them. J2-M205>Y22059 is connected to Montenegrin Latin speaking tribe Krici, it is clear Middle Eastern Roman signal that for sure was Latin speaking Vlach prior to identify with Serb.

What is interesting is that there is almost no J-M205>Y22059 in Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovens while majority of Serbian J2-M205>Y22059 is found exactly in Croatia and RS in Bosnia. According to Serb project J2-M205 and Ev13 are 30% in Lika. They must have been Orthodox Vlachs, that because of their religion later identified with Serbs rather then with Catholic Croats.
Also note that Slavic haplogroups could eventually always come in while Vlach ones could not. Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before.

Look at J2-M205 samples from Serb project, its not evenly distributed among them but rather on two hot spots both known for Vlach settlements.

dNyCvbO.png


You a are total idiot whith you claim.
Why you deny presence of J2b1-M205 among Croatians and Bosnian muslims? I showed you muslim family Tetarić from Banja Luka which is J2b1-M205, and there is more Bosnian muslims which are J2b1-M205. I know several Croatians who are J2b1-M205.
Even if Lika Serbs are 30% E + J it's still minority of their total haplogroup. Majority of Like Serbs belong to Slavic+Germanic (northern) haplogroups. N-Y7313 is Slavic according to Poreklo.

Albanians have about 25% Slavic haplogroups and Aromanians have over 30% Slavic haplogroups and nobody from the Serbian side claim that Albanians/Aromanians are of Slavic origin.
All south Slavs have paleo-Balkanic influence, and paleo-Balkanites such as Albanians, Greeks, Romanian and Aromanians have Slavic influence, it's from middle age.
 
There is maybe 2 Croats and 2 Bosnjaks with J-M205>Y22059
Cirko and Jurcevic are Croats. Other Bosnjak that you mention is Porovic, btw he plots near Bulgarians.

All others are Serbs, who actually used to be Vlachs. They are Serbs, only because of Slavicization of their native territories and because of their Orthodox religion which later made them identify with Serbs.

They become Slavs and they were Orthodox so what else could have they become except for Serbs?

Its same with Sandzak Albanians, their territories were Slavicized recently so because of their Slavic language and Muslim religion they say they are Bosnjaks.

Krajina Serbs and RS Serbs are Serbs just as much Sanzdaks are Bosnjaks. Serbs are heavily Vlach influenced you like it or not.
 
There is maybe 2 Croats and 2 Bosnjaks with J-M205>Y22059
Cirko and Jurcevic are Croats. Other Bosnjak that you mention is Porovic, btw he plots near Bulgarians.

All others are Serbs, who actually used to be Vlachs. They are Serbs, only because of Slavicization of their native territories and because of their Orthodox religion which later made them identify with Serbs.

They become Slavs and they were Orthodox so what else could have they become except for Serbs?

Its same with Sandzak Albanians, their territories were Slavicized recently so because of their Slavic language and Muslim religion they say they are Bosnjaks.

Krajina Serbs and RS Serbs are Serbs just as much Sanzdaks are Bosnjaks. Serbs are heavily Vlach influenced you like it or not.

Comparation of Krajina Serbs and Sandžaklije is idiotic. Sandžaklije have +70% Alabanian haplogroups and they were Albanian speakers until few decades. Autosomal of Sandžaklije is pure Gheg Albanian.
Krajina Serbs are have predominantly Slavic haplogroups, and there are autosomally the closest to Croatians and Bosnian muslims.
I know 5-6 Croatians which are J2b1-M205.

Are Krajina Serbs who are I2a, R1a, I1 and N2 also Vlachs?

You remind me to one Romanian idiot from Serbian one forum who claim that south Slavs are 97% Vlach and 3% Slavic. According to him even I2a and R1a south Slavs are of Vlach origin.
Behavior of you and that Romanian dude is very Gypsy.
If you are a Vlach than go back to Romania, stop pretend to be Albanian! :LOL:
 
Comparation of Krajina Serbs and Sandžaklije is idiotic. Sandžaklije have +70% Alabanian haplogroups and they were Albanian speakers until few decades. Autosomal of Sandžaklije is pure Gheg Albanian.
Krajina Serbs are have predominantly Slavic haplogroups, and there are autosomally the closest to Croatians and Bosnian muslims.
I know 5-6 Croatians which are J2b1-M205.

Are Krajina Serbs who are I2a, R1a, I1 and N2 also Vlachs?

You remind me to one Romanian dude from Serbian one forum who claim that south Slavs are 97% Vlach and 3% Slavic. According to him even I2a and R1a south Slavs are of Vlach origin.
Behavior of you and that Romanian dude is very Gypsy.


Do you know what your problem is? That when you lose in argument you start to twist, go off topic and insult people.
I have asked you specifically not to post spam here since its J2-M205 thread, and what you do? You start spamming it even more.
I have reported your insults now, also im not debating with you anymore until you grow up and until you will psychologically be ready to accept facts without insulting people or act like that.

Comparation between Krajina Serbs and Sandzaklije is not stupid. They both claim they are something which they are not, based on their Slavicization and religion.

Read one more time what i wrote and im not going to reply anymore to you since you cant either behave or debate on respectful way but on some barbaric way, and i wont allow you to pull me also on that level.

Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before.
 
Do you know what your problem is? That when you lose in argument you start to twist, go off topic and insult people.
I have asked you specifically not to post spam here since its J2-M205 thread, and what you do? You start spamming it even more.
I have reported your insults now, also im not debating with you anymore until you grow up and until you will psychologically be ready to accept facts without insulting people or act like that.

Comparation between Krajina Serbs and Sandzaklije is not stupid. They both claim they are something which they are not, based on their Slavicization and religion.

Read one more time what i wrote and im not going to reply anymore to you since you cant either behave or debate on respectful way but on some barbaric way, and i wont allow you to pull me also on that level.

Krajina Serbs are not predominantly of Vlach origin. They are less Vlachs influenced than Serbs from the other regions. Claim of same Croatians that Krajina Serbs are serbized Croatians have more sense than your idiotic claim about their Vlachs origin. If Krajina Serbs are Vlachs than Bosnian muslim and Croatian are also Vlachs, because Krajina Serbs are autosomaly identical as Bosnian muslims and Croatians.
On the other hand vast majority of Sandžaklije are of Albanian origin.
Case of Sandžaklije is similar as case of Arvanites in Greece.

You did not answered to me. Are Krajina Serbs who are I2a, R1a, I1 and N2 Vlachs?
I2a, R1a, I1 and N2 together are over 70% among Krajina Serbs.
 
Orthodox Serbs with Serbian names wrote text in cyrillil in Croatian language in region where in 1596 there was no any Catholic Caroatian. Tell me more about this, it's very funny to me!

It is "funny to you" because your knowledge is poor.

Catholic church was using Cyrilic script (western type) in Croatia and Bosnia (especially Franciscans) when using Croatan language.

The region of Pounje mentioned above is the region near Una river (thus the name). The main city in the region is called Hrvatska Kostajnica (Croatian Kostajnica). The Croats were living there all the time.

During the early 18th century two schools are opened in the city. One school was operated by Catholic Missionary Church of “St. Antun Padovinski”, while the second schools was run as a Serbian Public School.

Kostajnica suffered greatly during the Croatian War of Independence. A large part of the Croatian population were expelled or killed by rebel Serbs in 1991 and the city was incorporated into the Republic of Serbian Krajina. Houses and buildings belonging to Croats were burned and looted, including the baroque church, the medieval apothecary, and the eighteenth-century Franciscan monastery. The only piece of the city's cultural heritage left was the castle by the river built by the Frankopans. Kostajnica was put back in Croatian control following military victories by the army in August 1995, and the Croat population expelled slowly began returning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvatska_Kostajnica

(Others, sorry if this looks like an off topic. I'll try to get back to the subject)
 
It is "funny to you" because your knowledge is poor.

Catholic church was using Cyrilic script (western type) in Croatia and Bosnia (especially Franciscans) when using Croatan language.

The region of Pounje mentioned above is the region near Una river (thus the name). The main city in the region is called Hrvatska Kostajnica (Croatian Kostajnica). The Croats were living there all the time.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvatska_Kostajnica

Why people from document have Serbian or Orthodox names such as: Radoslav, Miloš, Radoje, Vranješ, Vujica, Manojlo, Živko, Vojin, Slavuj...?
Those people were Orthodox without doubt. Priest Radoslav call themself proto-pop. Pop is Orthodox priest, and Castholic priest is fratar.

As I said Vranješ is quite common surmame among Krajina Serbs. Vranješi are probably R1a-M458, because they are of same origin as Serbian Krajina families Bursać, Tankosić and Bauk and all of these families are R1a-M458.
Bursać (cyrillic Бурсаћ) [video]https://www.poreklo.rs/2012/02/14/bursać/[/video]
 
Wonomyro, autosomal components can drastically change thru few generations.

Yes, but not simultanuously on the large scale. If one population lacks the cretain component it can't get it out of the blue. There must be another much larger population to mix with.

We cannot expect west Serbs to plot near Aromanians or Albanians. Not that Krajina and RS Serbs have only higher E1b in compare to Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovenians, but what i already explained in addition to E1b there is significant J2-M205 portion in them. J2-M205>Y22059 is connected to Montenegrin Latin speaking tribe Krici, it is clear Middle Eastern Roman signal that for sure was Latin speaking Vlach prior to identify with Serb.

What is interesting is that there is almost no J-M205>Y22059 in Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovens while majority of Serbian J2-M205>Y22059 is found exactly in Croatia and RS in Bosnia. According to Serb project J2-M205 and Ev13 are 30% in Lika. They must have been Orthodox Vlachs, who because of their religion later identified with Serbs rather then with Catholic Croats.
Also note that Slavic haplogroups could eventually always come in while Vlach ones could not. Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before.

Look at J2-M205 samples from Serb project, its not evenly distributed among them but rather on two hot spots both known for Vlach settlements.

dNyCvbO.png

I agree the there is a noticeable signal of Vlachs ancestry in the Croatian and Bosnian Orthodox. It is very likely that The "real" Vlachs were those who initialy brought the Orthodox religion to the westen parts. The rest were obviously the later assimilated locals from the Ottoman side of the border.
 
Unsubscribe this s..t.
Eat each other my friends.
 
Dema is an manipulator. His posts are cherry-picking. I2a and R1a are much stronger among Krajina Serbs than E1b and J2b.
He is obsessed with haplogroups. Haplogroup is less than 0,1% of total human DNA. Autsomal is much more important, and Krajina Serbs are the more nothern shifted Serbs.
If Krajina Serbs are paleo-Balkanites how is possible that they shifted more nothern than other Serbs? Whether their ploting with Bosnian muslims and Croatians fell from the sky.
 
Here are photos of Banija Serbs (they are Krajina Serbs) [video]https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?248218-Serbs-from-Banija-(main-phenotypes-and-where-they-can-fit)[/video]

Most of votes is for option that they look like Croatians.
Polish user said that all of them can pass as Poles.

I2a+R1a among Banija Serbs are over 60%, also Banija Serbs look pretty Slavic for Balkan standards.
 
I agree, all this should be moved to some Balkan thread. Lets continue with J2B1
 
Dema is an manipulator. His posts are cherry-picking. I2a and R1a are much stronger among Krajina Serbs than E1b and J2b.
He is obsessed with haplogroups. Haplogroup is less than 0,1% of total human DNA. Autsomal is much more important, and Krajina Serbs are the more nothern shifted Serbs.
If Krajina Serbs are paleo-Balkanites how is possible that they shifted more nothern than other Serbs? Whether their ploting with Bosnian muslims and Croatians fell from the sky.

In you question there is an answer.

Got it now? ;)
 
In you question there is an answer.

Got it now? ;)

Bosnian and Krajina Serbs very rare mixed with Bosnian muslims and Croatians, because of religion.
Autosomal DNA of Bosnian and Krajina Serbs is from their own haplogroups. Peleo-Balkanite haplogroups among Krajina Serbs are in minority towards the Slavic and northern haplogroups in general. There is more paleo-Balkanite haplogroups among Vojvodinian Serbs than among Krajina Serbs. Banat is especially influenced with high % of paleo-Balkanite haplos.
 
Bosnian and Krajina Serbs very rare mixed with Bosnian muslims and Croatians, because of religion.
Autosomal DNA of Bosnian and Krajina Serbs is from their own haplogroups. Peleo-Balkanite haplogroups among Krajina Serbs are in minority towards the Slavic and northern haplogroups in general.

Autosomal DNA from haplogroups? :petrified:

There is more paleo-Balkanite haplogroups among Vojvodinian Serbs than among Krajina Serbs. Banat is especially influenced with high % of paleo-Balkanite haplos.

That's according to the expectations. Serbs of Banat mostly descend from the medieval Serbian population. That migration is well documented.
 
Autosomal DNA from haplogroups? :petrified:

I mean Krajina Serbs mixed mostly among themselves, they mixed very rare with Croatians. Fact is that Krajina Serbs are most northern shifted Serbs is not because they married Croatian women. If they were Vlachs their autosomal should be same as Albanian or Romanian and is not the case. Krajina Serbs are genetically the farthest from Albanians and Romanians of all Serbs.
 
I mean Krajina Serbs mixed mostly among themselves, they mixed very rare with Croatians. Fact is that Krajina Serbs are most northern shifted Serbs is not because they married Croatian women. If they were Vlachs their autosomal should be same as Albanian or Romania and is not case. Krajina Serbs are genetically the farthest from Albanians and Romanians of all Serbs.

But why are they "northern shifted" then?

Why are they autosomally identical to Croats, not to the rest of Serbs?
 
But why are they "northern shifted" then?

Why are they autosomally identical to Croats, not to the rest of Serbs?

Probably because Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins got extra paleo-Balkanite genes in the last few centuries. Do you know than in eastern Serbia almost all Vlachs are assimilated/serbized. There is about 40 000 Vlachs in eastern Serbia and their real number is probably over 300 000.
Southern Serbs (Torlakians) are quite Vlach influenced. In the middle age Vlachs were numerous in southern Serbia. Torlakian dialect has paleo-Balkanite influence.
Western Serbs probably are genetically closer to medieval Serbs, because they migrated early from eastern Herzegovina to northwest. Some natives of western Bosnia were probably absorbed by Herzegovinian Serbs which migrated to western Bosnia in 16th century.
 
Probably because Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins got extra paleo-Balkanite genes in the last few centuries. Do you know than in eastern Serbia almost all Vlachs are assimilated/serbized. There is about 40 000 Vlachs in eastern Serbia and their real number is probably over 300 000. Western Serbs probably are genetically closer to medieval Serbs, because they migrated early from eastern Herzegovina to northwest. Some natives of western Bosnia were probably absorbed by Herzegovinian Serbs which migrated to western Bosnia in 16th century.
But that was Herzegovina, not medieval Serbia. The center of Serbian medieval state was more to the east in Kosovo and Raška. However, it seems that the population of medieval Herzegovina was also "Croatian like" autosomally...
 

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