J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

[Dema]

I dont know have most of you noticed, but there has been new J2b1 text added to Eupedia and J2b1 has been more properly introduced on Eupedia.
It would be nice if we would focus on J2b1 in this thread regarding j2b1 and his development on Eupedia but also outside it.
So all constructive arguments, questions or comments regarding J2b1 and its current status on Eupedia are welcome!


First i would like to thank Maciamo for adding J2b1 on J2 section of Eupedia. Now lets see how our J2b1 story will further develop.


Text of J2b1 as it stands on Eupedia today with 22 October of 2017:





Map of J2b1-M205 as it stands on Eupedia today on 22 of October in 2017:

[Dema]

There are two major branches of J2b1 in Balkans and these are J2b1>? (Mediterranean coastal branch) and J2b1>PH4306>Y22059 (Balkan mainland branch).

Yfulls: Balkan J2b1 - https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/ J2b1-M205 overall - https://yfull.com/tree/J-M205/


As it can be seen its two different branches when split happened more then 6000 years ago. Mediterranean branch is longer present in Europe as it straches in multiple various ethnicities including Greeks and Italians also it has high TMRCA. While Balkan one is more focused on inner mainland, its pretty much grouped and its TMRCA is very low of only 900-1200 years and no close relatives except themselves suggesting more recent also sudden arrival from direction of Levant.


Here it can be seen that Balkan branch Y22059/Y22066 is brother clade to PH1089 (Levantines), also there is one more brother clade in Palestine:
https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibl...ph1089-y22066/

Also note that all closest relatives of Balkan branch (TMRCA 900-1200 years) except themselves are Levantines (Lebanon, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Emirates, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Cyprus..).

[bicicleur]

the split, 6.1 ka is to old to be bronze age

and 6.1 ka it was a split in 5 : M205*, Y22059, Y22037, YP13*, PF7300
which means a major expansion at that time

[Dema]

the split, 6.1 ka is to old to be bronze age

and 6.1 ka it was a split in 5 : M205*, Y22059, Y22037, YP13*, PF7300
which means a major expansion at that time

Yes, good perception : ) Age of entire j2b1 is 15900 years while its TMRCA is only 6100 years.

Furthermore then there is more groups of J2b1 where every single each of them is 6100 years old with 6100 years TMRCA except Balkan group that is also 6100 years old but its the only one with low TMRCA (900-1200 years) and no closer relatives then Levantines (who are 6000 years distant).


Maybe we can draw some conclusions from this? I agree that split must have been around 6100 years ago.

[Dema]

Regarding text on Eupedia about J2b1 i see that there is missing one of our very important ancient DNA samples.

Its Roman gladiator found in England, York. He is J2b1 and autosomally ploted near Jordan Bronze Age sample.

https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogeno...ddle-eastener/


Also i dont agree that J2b1 is most represented in Balkan countries, this is simply not true. By researches its most represented in Cyprus with almost 6% while in Serbia by researches it goes 2-3% by public researches. And i think that is max for Serbia 2% and that is questionable. While among South Slavs in general should be even less, not sure will there be even 1%. For example Slovenia absolutely lacks it.

So i think entire map should be reworked and questioned again.

[Trojet]

Yes, good perception : ) Age of entire j2b1 is 15900 years while its TMRCA is only 6100 years.

Furthermore then there is more groups of J2b1 where every single each of them is 6100 years old with 6100 years TMRCA except Balkan group that is also 6100 years old but its the only one with low TMRCA (900-1200 years) and no closer relatives then Levantines (who are 6000 years distant).


Maybe we can draw some conclusions from this? I agree that split must have been around 6100 years ago.

The "Balkan Cluster" (J-Y22059,Y22066) phylogeny currently goes something like this: J2b1-M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22066. So this cluster is also under the CTS1969 branch. The reason why YFulll doesn't have it under CTS1969 is because this SNP is not well covered by the BigY, and the two samples have no-call for this SNP. Below CTS1969, the "Balkan Cluster" also shares PH4306 and Y22075 with scientific NGS samples from the Levant area, and a BigY sample from Qatar who hasn't uploaded to YFull, as can be seen here: http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1

So the "Balkan Cluster" (J-Y22066,Y22059) does not form a "distinct" J2b1-M205 branch as suggested by the YTree (due to CTS1969 being no call and other samples not at YFull), but at the same time, currently it has no close relatives.

[Dema]

@Trojet You are absolutely correct Trojet thanks for input. I have mistaken it for PH1089 in previous posts. Thanks for pointing it out, i have made corrections.

Also you are correct, in Eupedia it should be probably written that Balkan clade is brother clade to Levantines and not a distinct line. As for sure there are more further clades under J2b1 and Balkan clade doesn't have anyone closer then Levantines.

Btw also marker wise, except ourselves (1000-1200 years TMRCA) all our closest matches are in Levant.
For example, except guys from Balkan who all fall under 1200 years TMRCA, my closest relative is guy you mentioned, Albeshri from Qatar on GD 11/37.
Who is ofc out of our clade formed 6000 years ago, but still marker wise he is for example so far my closest relative outside Balkan on 37 markers compared.

[Dema]

J2b1 phylogenic tree as it stands today with 23 October of 2017:



http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1

[Dema]

I edited out text that Greeks are PH4306, i simply dont know to what branch Greeks go under and i dont know for any bigY that someone of Greeks took.

So far as it can be seen Levantines PH1089+, Balkan branch Y22059+, and one more line in Palestine PH1417+ are brother clades all under PH4306.

There are Italians, English guy and Spaniards tested with bigY but none of them is PH4306+ so far.

[Dema]

As i stated earlier when i say Levantines we know for sure so far that its Lebanon, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Emirates, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Cyprus, Egypt, Armenia, Turkey,, All PH1089+

Why is map displaying like half of these countries lack j2b1 when there is j2b1 reported in all these places and it can be seen in public databases and researches. Also one more time appeal on J2b1 map which is totally wrong regarding both Levant. Also Balkan which is falsely represented higher then it really is.

Also since j2b1 is 16 000 years old with quite few groups, it would be nice if text on Eupedia would correctly say that Balkan mainland branch Y22066/Y22059 is brother clade to Levantines, and even tho separation is 6000 years old. With one more line in Palestine they are closest ones one to another from all tested people so far there is no one closer. So, brother clades. TMRCA 4000 BC.

[Mercurial]

Hello Dema. J2b1 is actually underrepresented in Serbia (I don't know about whole Balkans) because currently available data does not include much of the Šopluk region where J2b1 is abundant (that sample, that I have also been a part of as J2b1, as I've heard should be published soon, maybe early next year). It is present in abundance from Svrljig to Trgovište. Do you perhaps know something about Sarakatsani origins of Balkan J2b1? In my family there is a story that we come from a Greek tribe. It is not mentioned that it is specifically Sarakatsani though. I wonder if anybody knows if there ever was Y-DNA test done on any Sarakatsani people.

[Dema]

Hello Dema. J2b1 is actually underrepresented in Serbia (I don't know about whole Balkans) because currently available data does not include much of the Šopluk region where J2b1 is abundant (that sample, that I have also been a part of as J2b1, as I've heard should be published soon, maybe early next year). It is present in abundance from Svrljig to Trgovište. Do you perhaps know something about Sarakatsani origins of Balkan J2b1? In my family there is a story that we come from a Greek tribe. It is not mentioned that it is specifically Sarakatsani though. I wonder if anybody knows if there ever was Y-DNA test done on any Sarakatsani people.

Hello Mercurial, best regards, how you mean J2b1 is underrepresented in Serbia? In most public studies on Serbs that i seen there is 1 - 3 percent of M205.
For example in Todorovic et al. (2014) that tested 85 Serbs near Aleksandrovac that is also in southern part it showned only 2 persons out of 85 to belong to J2b1:
http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0...611401245T.pdf
or Reguiero et al. (2012) where among 103 Serbians only 2,9% had J2b with J2b, J2b1 and J2b2 combined.
Then Mirabal 2010 which had sample of 318 Montenegrins, where only 5 had j2b1. And in same research there was also 173 Serbs tested and only 3 had J2b1 which would be 1,7 percent.


There are two hot spots in Balkan with higher concentration of J2b1, one is as you mentioned in South Serbia and partially in Montenegro, while other is in Bosnia in parts of RS and down to Croatia in Knin (Krajina). But out of these hot spots J2b1 frequency falls down. For example around Belgrade area and more north i doubt that J2b1 will reach over percent.

Regarding origin, when we speak about our branch - J2b1-M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22059/Y22066 we dont really see some connection with Greeks but rather it looks like sudden arrival from direction of Levant. Even tho we have one Greek in our group with interesting location:

https://s25.postimg.org/qbdsfry0v/Greek_Phoca.jpg

Our TMRCA based on ten Y111 tests is around 1200 years. Also with most people falling in this group being Orthodox Christians also being pretty rare among Vlachs or Albanians i think its pretty safe to asume it was arrival in time of Byzant. Most likely as mercenaries or administration. Then there is question did we all develop out of a single guy who lived 1200 years ago. Or rather from one big family that emigrated here in time of Byzant. But with having major expansion in Balkan and not yet a single example in Middle East, it looks like family has developed here from indeed a single guy who arrived around 1200 years ago, who was powerful enough to raise such a big family.


Furthermore outside our group that seems focused in Balkan mainland areas with 1200 years TMRCA, all our closest relatives are in Levant with Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Arab Emirates looks like being closest (but this will additionally cleared out when more people in Levant will get tested esspecially with bigY tests).

For example, as text inside says this is pure theory about our forefather arrival based on TMRCA, closest relatives, and what is very important ancient DNA:

[Dema]

Ancient DNA:

[Mercurial]

Sorry for the late reply, I don't come to this forum too often.
I meant it is underrepresented because there haven't been big studies done in this region, which is not the case with this new study that should come out soon, and the samples from it should raise j2b1 presence in Serbia. I think it was SANU research, not even sure. I basically only have the information that I belong to J2b1, no branches, nothing, since the study isn't out yet. Regarding the Greek origin, it is just something that has been spoken of in the family, and most people in my village speak of us as Greeks and Novoselci. My paternal ancestors lived in Novo Selo (near Predejane) some 300-400 years ago before moving to Orasac (near Leskovac).
Only thing I know further is that my haplotype has 15-20 combination on marker 385ab.

[Dema]

Sure Mercurial, same here. I barely follow any genetic threads lately, but from time to time i check some forums and eventually i look at Yfull to see is there any movements on a J2b1 section. Let me know when you get your full results we can compare each other but i should have around 1000 years distance from most samples in our group.

As Trojet mentioned earlier on Foleja, with release of new version of Yfull (v6.01) there have been some changes. We have been finally correctly placed on their phylogenetic tree. We are now CTS1969+ and PH4306+ same as on Chris tree from J2-M172 project.

To make things even better, we have found our father line in Palestine, and since i asked Trojet earlier i got confirmation that its not same sample from the Christian Rottensteiner tree. So we practically now have father line in Palestine and Qatar and also brother line in Palestine.

Then there just popped up a Qatar sample also as PH4306+, looking to also be a father line or at least PH4306+ brother line.
What is good about this is that our father and brother lines are found exactly or around where our ancient DNA was found. We could have easily be back-migration and downstream of England or Spain samples, even Italian or Greek ones, or even an Ukrainian sample which i believe is very distant migration from Caucasus, however as things are slowly revealing looks like our ancestor indeed arrived from area of around where our closest relatives and ancient DNA was found. So we are kinda line that spread from Caucasus (J2 originated in Caucasus and J2b was already found in Neolithic Iran) to Fertile Crescent (around Fertile Crescent is believed that we are born from our father line >J2B, then had some kind of expansion there and we are sons of one of them that migrated from direction of around Fertile Crescent to Balkan in about 1000 - 1500 years, looks like 1250 to go by average.

So we PH4306 overall don't have 6000 years TMRCA as believed before but somewhat lower but that can also change, still we have somewhat higher TMRCA then our ancient DNA samples so i believe there could be some more ancient DNA discoveries in future.

Overall very good stuff and interesting discoveries.

Yfull tree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

J2 M172 project tree: http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1

Much more similar now.


Also regarding J2b1 and Balkan population that are still unknown where J2b1 has somewhat chance to appear are Gorani people, if Gorani people score some J2b1 it will be very interesting to see what is their haplotype but regarding other populations we more or less know what is situation and what are genetic differences, and as things look like, it seems that whoever today bears this haplotype is assimilated in modern ethnicity it belongs to.

We are all assimilated in time frame of at most of 1000 years, where most likely we all come out of a single guy who arrived on Balkan not long before that.

i am also interested to hear if anyone has some theories or opinions or something we can debate about, so everything is welcome. Best regards.

[Bachus]

Albanian Krič!

I did not know that some Kriči were albanized.

[Dema]

Albanian Krič! I did not know that some Kriči were albanized.

Yes, yes.. Im sure you didnt know anything but you come in by accident. Anyways, we dont know was Krici tribe J2b1 dominant or actually are the modern people surnamed Krickovic/Kricka related with old Krici tribe. That is a pure speculation based on two surnames. Who says there was no E-v13, J2a or G2a among Krici also? Furthermore for all we know, Dema surname dominates J2b1 as we have 3 surnames Dema related tested positive for J2b1. Dema from near Tirana in Albania, then me Dema from Kosovo, and there is Demic, i believe he is Orthodox from Croatia. Then what do we actually know about Krici tribe? Except for a fight with Drobnjak tribe and rest of Slavs, if we know anything about them its that they were non Slavic tribe. Did you know that? Furthermore even if Krici theory is true, which is a pretty long ball if you ask me, my line for sure didnt take place in that tribe as there is modelar Krici haplotype where most of people are closely related, even within a few hundred years while i dont have modelar "Krici" haplotype therefore seems like separation happened few hundred years before Krici tribe was actually formed.You can call entire haplotype "Krici" but if you ask me, that is not really accurate name for this haplotype as its questionable how much it had to do with Krici tribe since 99% of people bearing this haplotype dont have any connection with Krici and they never heard of it until they tested, so yea there is kinda a lot of holes in this Krici theory.

Look what Croatian wiki says about Krici:

"Kriči, staro neslavensko pleme neutvrđenog, možda španjskog porijekla, sa područja uz rijeku Taru u Crnoj Gori. Svoje katune Kriči su imali na planini Sinjajevini i u kraju poznatom kao Jezera. Kriči su se održali do sredine 12. stoljeća a izginuli su po dolasku Slavena u neprekidnim borbama sa crnogorskim plemenom Drobnjak koji su ih protjerali preko rijeke Tare. O uzroku sukoba se nagađa, a jedan od njih su pašnjaci za stoku. Prema nekom krvavom sukobu između Kriča i Drobnjaka jedan izvor vode iznad sela Gornja Bukovica prozvan je Krvavac." https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kri%C4%8Di

[Bachus]

Yes, yes.. Im sure you didnt know anything but you come in by accident. Anyways, we dont know was Krici tribe J2b1 dominant or actually are the modern people surnamed Krickovic/Kricka related with old Krici tribe. That is a pure speculation based on two surnames. Who says there was no E-v13, J2a or G2a among Krici also? Furthermore for all we know, Dema surname dominates J2b1 as we have 3 surnames Dema related tested positive for J2b1. Dema from near Tirana in Albania, then me Dema from Kosovo, and there is Demic, i believe he is Orthodox from Croatia. Then what do we actually know about Krici tribe? Except for a fight with Drobnjak tribe and rest of Slavs, if we know anything about them its that they were non Slavic tribe. Did you know that? Furthermore even if Krici theory is true, which is a pretty long ball if you ask me, my line for sure didnt take place in that tribe as there is modelar Krici haplotype where most of people are closely related, even within a few hundred years while i dont have modelar "Krici" haplotype therefore seems like separation happened few hundred years before Krici tribe was actually formed.You can call entire haplotype "Krici" but if you ask me, that is not really accurate name for this haplotype as its questionable how much it had to do with Krici tribe since 99% of people bearing this haplotype dont have any connection with Krici and they never heard of it until they tested, so yea there is kinda a lot of holes in this Krici theory.

Look what Croatian wiki says about Krici:

"Kriči, staro neslavensko pleme neutvrđenog, možda španjskog porijekla, sa područja uz rijeku Taru u Crnoj Gori. Svoje katune Kriči su imali na planini Sinjajevini i u kraju poznatom kao Jezera. Kriči su se održali do sredine 12. stoljeća a izginuli su po dolasku Slavena u neprekidnim borbama sa crnogorskim plemenom Drobnjak koji su ih protjerali preko rijeke Tare. O uzroku sukoba se nagađa, a jedan od njih su pašnjaci za stoku. Prema nekom krvavom sukobu između Kriča i Drobnjaka jedan izvor vode iznad sela Gornja Bukovica prozvan je Krvavac." https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kri%C4%8Di

Kriči were Vlach tribe which lived around Durmitor mountain in territory where Drobnjak clan live today.
Drobnjaci came from Herzegovina or Bosnia in late 14th century and expelled Kriči.

Demić is Serb from Banija region in Croatia.

Croat from Duvno which was tested recently belong to J2b-M205 (Kriči cluster).

Serb from Brus near Kopaonik which is also tested recently is J2b-M205 and his last name is Kričak (is written Кричак - number 5) https://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedi...filter=J2bM205

[Dema]

Kriči were Vlach tribe which lived around Durmitor mountain in territory where Drobnjak clan live today.
Drobnjaci came from Herzegovina or Bosnia in late 14th century and expelled Kriči.

Demić is Serb from Banija region in Croatia.

Croat from Duvno which was tested recently belong to J2b-M205 (Kriči cluster).

Serb from Brus near Kopaonik which is also tested recently is J2b-M205 and his last name is Kričak (is written Кричак - number 5) https://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedi...filter=J2bM205

I am not sure that you entirely read or understood text and quantity of information that i provided in previous post that you quoted? I think i elaborated pretty well to you that this haplotype is older then Krici tribe and its expansion happened almost to all modern Balkan ethnicities and even out of Balkan region like Italy, Germany, Turkey (Greek nationality), etc...

So as stated earlier most likely from a single guy who lived around 1200 - 1300 years ago.

Perhaps some of them or one brotherhood also later took part in Krici tribe but as Krici were 12 century tribe, you could speculate that for these that are related within 800 or less years to Kirckovic/Kricka samples. They must have be majority, and therefore that is how modelar haplotype is created. But as i stated earlier to you, there are people whos genetic distance is further and therefore, me for example could not be part of a 12 - 14 century tribe if i dont match these Krici supposed to be samples closer then 800 years.

Yes i thought that i made that obvious that Demic modern ethnicity is Serbian since he is Orthodox from Croatia? His current nationality is not even important, what is important is that we have so far 3 Dema related surnames within a J2b1 where one of them only took SNP testing up to M205+. And two of us are very closely related in compare to others on 111 markers.

Anyways as now one of Bosnian Vlachs - Lakic bigY is about to be uploaded to Yfull, there will be some new branches and sub branches formed and perhaps there could be more precise "Krici cluster identified" but i have to repeat again that these would be only people who match Krici and Kricka to 800 years or closer, while our real expansion seems to happened somewhere in Byzantine empire 1200, 1300 years before present, with our closest relatives in area of Palestine, Qatar, United Arab emirates,,, Also with aDNA on places as shown on image above.

My best bet would be mercenery or administration arrived in time of Byzant and someone who was powerful enough to raise such a big family.

[Mercurial]

Thanks for the information! :) I will be coming back to this thread to see weather you have new information, since you are very adept at this subject. Cheers!

[Dema]

No problem, next im gonna take bigY, im just waiting price to drop a bit : )
Also if Albeshri haven't yet uploaded to Yfull, and if he is not this Qatar sample i might also message him to do so.

[haplogroup_king]

No problem, next im gonna take bigY, im just waiting price to drop a bit : )
Also if Albeshri haven't yet uploaded to Yfull, and if he is not this Qatar sample i might also message him to do so.

hello Dema

Regarding about Albsheri, he uploaded his bigY result at YFULL.


you can see him under the branch J-Y22075

[haplogroup_king]

one more thing

there is sample has the same cluster with Albsheri

he is waiting his Big Y result

he is from Qatar too

for more information don't feel hesitate to ask me

my regards

[haplogroup_king]

[QUOTE=Dema;530975]Sure Mercurial, same here. I barely follow any genetic threads lately, but from time to time i check some forums and eventually i look at Yfull to see is there any movements on a J2b1 section. Let me know when you get your full results we can compare each other but i should have around 1000 years distance from most samples in our group.

As Trojet mentioned earlier on Foleja, with release of new version of Yfull (v6.01) there have been some changes. We have been finally correctly placed on their phylogenetic tree. We are now CTS1969+ and PH4306+ same as on Chris tree from J2


I have a simple query

I see there are many samples of j2b1 haplogroup in Balkans and because I do not know very well in your tribes and community in the Balkans, do you have any heritage that says you are from Kinda?

I will be glad to get the answer to my query

[Dema]

hello DemaRegarding about Albsheri, he uploaded his bigY result at YFULL.you can see him under the branch J-Y22075

Hello Hapologroup_king, best regards! Very good info! I have actually send him message over Ysearch before, as he is one of our distant matches from direction of Levant. So i asked him to upload to Yfull if that is possible, but i got a error message back and i am not sure did message went thru. However, its very good to hear that he has uploaded to Yfull and that he is confirmed Y22075/PH4306+, so same as most of Balkan samples : )

This was important for Balkan branch: J2b1>Y22075>Y22066, to achieve a link with other Y22075+ samples to try to find more about our distant origin.

So far we have Albeshri from Qatar and one more sample from Palestine. In future i expect more countries to join up, like Lebanon, Cyprus,Iran, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Jordan,,
Also there is somewhat connection with French J2b1 samples, so potentially that could also be some brother line expansion from Levant to territory of France.

one more thing

there is sample has the same cluster with Albsheri

he is waiting his Big Y result

he is from Qatar too

for more information don't feel hesitate to ask me

my regards

Very good, so we are getting another sample from Qatar who is PH4306+.

I have a simple query

I see there are many samples of j2b1 haplogroup in Balkans and because I do not know very well in your tribes and community in the Balkans, do you have any heritage that says you are from Kinda?

I will be glad to get the answer to my query

Not really, it is somewhat connected with one old Vlach tribe - Krici. But no one really knows what language these "Vlachs" spoken prior to their Latinization/Hellenization or even after it.
Only thing that is somewhat known about their language is that it was not Slavic. Everything is very mysterious.
What is Kinda? Is it this? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindah