J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

I’m sorry but I have to call you out on how wrong you are. I would expect you to fact check on the group page before making a statement like that. Unless you have access to some information not publicly available to the group.

j2b-L283 Albanians are not 95 percent PH1751. That is a false statement. One I mainly hear from Serbs trying to claim a lack of diversity in Albanians to disassociate their connection to Illyrians given the Proto-Illyrian J2b-L283. Of course I am not accusing you of this.

If you would just do some basic math, out of the current 142 or AI samples only 72 of them are PH1751. Of course it is a monumental cluster that dominates. But you added 45 percent to that number which is completely false

there is quite a bit of diversity forming in Albanian J2b-L283. In fact, in an under sampled area such as Diber; every J2b-L283 has been unique. Many places remain untested.

Sure we only have 800+ samples at the moment, but I wouldn’t try and reduce J2b-L283 in Albanians to some small young cluster lacking diversity. That’s simply not true.



http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/


Well i am sure that PH1751 used to dominate way more before, there was few Hoti or unclassified samples but i believe it was way larger before in regard of percentage. However you are right, i didnt check statistics but i spoken out of a mind and as it seems few things have changed.

Albanian L283 is definitively connected to ancient DNA found in Dalmatia therefore i dont see how someone like Serbs you mention is trying to disapprove its Illyrian origin.

Anyways what i wanted to point is that percentage of some haplogroup does not tell how old it is. Even if its half of Albanian L283 it still expaned in only last 1200 years, so its valid example.


whilst your line is definitely diverse in Albanians thus far, there are only 3 clusters among 6 users.

there’s far more diversity in J2b-L283 despite what you mentioned.

Actually J2-M205 has higher diversity among Albanians then J2-L283. Look in link you gave Y22066 samples are CTS1969+, while South Albanian samples are CTS1969-. CTS1969 is 8300 years old, therefore Albanian TMRCA of J2-M205 is 8300 years. While Albanian TMRCA of J2-L283 is 4900 years. Meaning Albanians belonging to J2-M205 have higher diversity then Albanians belonging to J2-L283.

Also there is fourth cluster which is identified in Tirana in public studies but we still dont have it in project.

But this is absolutely irrelevant since i think J2-L283 is older in Dalmatian coast, while J2-M205 expanded with Phoenicians or later.
 
From what I see on our results document there are 159 samples that fall under L283, 77 of which are PH1751+. This would mean that ~48% of Albanian J-L283 is PH1751+. The second largest cluster is Y23094+ at ~17.6%. There are also other clades under Z631 and CTS11100 which are below 10%.

You miss about 25 % there. I think there is chance that many of unclassified L283 samples will turn out PH1751. In future PH1751 might be over 51 %.
 

You first said J2-M205, but even the Y22059 is part of M205 so i dont see what the big deal is.
Y22059 is more northern branch of J2-M205, as majority of branches are more South, like Mediterranean Sea or Middle East.

Where is source of that branch and where is the proof (which mutation)?

All Bulgarian samples seem to fall under Y22059, with specific DYS385 value 15-19. Meaning there is low variations of J2-M205 in Bulgaria since they all belong to same branch (Balkan cluster), and also they have low variations since they have similar STRs values.
In central Balkan there is way higher percentage and variations of M205 in general but also of specific Y22059 branch then in both Bulgaria or Romania.

In Croatia exist that branch (Balkan cluster) and based on that I make conclusion.

According to 3 different surnames, that are Kriçi related, they all turned out Y22059 branch, meaning that Kriçi tribe was most likely Y22059.
Kriçi is 12 century Montenegrin none Slavic tribe. If they were Vlachs or if they spoken Latin, that would be known as Latin was famous language.
What could they be if they were 12 century Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe ? Most likely of Illyrian/Albanian origin since there is not many options left.

We don’t know it yet because we don’t know migration of Y22059 peoples in that area(Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania etc)

So Y22059 is identified within 12 century Montenegrin tribe, and its TMRCA is 1000 years. Therefore most likely it originates in Montenegro also, where is found in highest percentages and with highest variations in area of Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo and Southwest Serbia.


For now we have no evidence for that, if you have evidence show genetic data.

They are of Albanian origin but slavicised. Also in Albania there is 4 different branches identified while Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia or Croatia have only Y22059 which is Illyrian/Albanian Montenegrin branch which we can find there because of slavicization of Montenegro and surrounding areas.

If Albanians have 4 branches then these mutations must also exist in the Croatian Serbs, where they are?
It is logical that this branch exist and migrate in that area( Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia or Croatia) if this branch only exist in that area.
However, once when we find out migration path of that branch then we will know more precisely.

In Bulgaria exist many branches of J2 haplotype so maybe source of this branch is there.

Almost all J2b-L283, and E-v13 in Montenegrins and Serbs is of Albanian origin. That can be easily seen even with subclades in Yfull where Montenegrins and Serbs share plenty of subclades or are direct brother clades to Albanians. Also all R1b-BY611 Montenegrins, Serbs or Croats are of Albanian origin.

No one has Albanian origin they have Vlachs origin, Albanians are not mentioned in Croatia at least not in large numbers. Whether these Vlachs were originally Albanian origin probable they are but not all, there are also migrations from Bulgaria, possibly other countries. Genetics will say that in the future.


We have Y22059 in Kosovo Albanians, Montenegro Albanians, and now recently in North Albanians from Shkodra that belong to Lohja tribe.
Also Shkodra Lohja sample seems to have unique DYS385 and it would be interesting if he does bigY.

As said Albanians have multiple branches of J2-M205, while in Serbia/Croatia/Montenegro its all Y22059 which is connected to Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe of most likely Albanian origin. presence of Y22059 in Croats, Serbs or Montenegrins is result of slavicization of their native territories and therefore of them.

Therefore you have no proof that branch Y22059 has its source in Albania.
The fact that this branch exists in Albania does not mean that it could not have come from Bulgaria to Albania. Vlachs probably came from area of Bulgaria as well, otherwise in southern Serbia Bulgarians are also mentioned, they probably brought and some genetics.

Yes, Serbs in Croatia (Krajina) and in Republika Srpska in Bosnia seem to have unusually high percentage of E-v13 and J2-M205 in compare to their Croat/Bosnjak/Slovene neighbors. Actually as far as i looked on subclades it seems as Croatian/Bosnian "Vlachs" are actually Albano/Illyrians in origin.

Probably yes but for now branch Y22059 points more to the Bulgarian direction of migration.

It makes sense since they were recorded to arrive somewhere from South Serbia and Montenegro in 14 century to defend against Ottoman Empire.

They did not come to defend against Ottoman Empire, they come with Turks.

So they dont fall in Vlach subclades, but actually in Albanian subclades : )

Written records mention Vlachs, and originally they may be Albanians, Bulgarians etc, we will know this more accurately in the future, but for sure they are mostly original Albanians.

In Croatia is mostly Serbs, even tho there is real Croats also. I explained to you in this post where and when they come from and what are they in origin.
In Bulgaria is all expansion from Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe with 1000 years TMRCA. Also its only few samples with no variations. It has absolutely no connection to Turkic languages as Bulgar or Slavic as modern Bulgarian.

First prove by written documents that someone migrates from Montenegro to Bulgaria, when you do it then I will answer.

Y22066 has its first relatives and is equal brother clade to subclades in Palestine, Iraq, Kuvait, Armenia, Greek from Turkey, France, England, Sardinia...

I'm interested in younger mutations this is old connection (formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp)

They are separated 4900 years one from another but still closest relatives! Therefore Phoenician expansion makes much more sense then some Bulgarian or Romanian connection lol.

We are talking about migration in the Turkish era.

I dont see why is there need to connect subclade to Romanians or Bulgarians when simply it has no connection to them. We can find Y22059 in Italy, Greece, Albania, Kosovo, Sweden, but still it all has origin in Pred-Slavic Montenegrin population from 1000 years ago. And prior to that origin is clear by looking on Yfull:

For now there is an older mutation in Serbia and Bosnia (TMRCA), so for now it would be reverse direction of migration. That's why i say we still have to wait.
 
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You miss about 25 % there. I think there is chance that many of unclassified L283 samples will turn out PH1751. In future PH1751 might be over 51 %.
I wasn't aiming to give a complete breakdown of the J-L283 percentages, only PH1751+ and Y23094+ which is why I gave a more precise percentage for them. Some of the unclassified samples may turn out to be PH1751+ but some may also turn out to be Y23094+ such as the cluster (L283>Cluster A) found in Eastern Albania and Western Macedonia.
 
Well i am sure that PH1751 used to dominate way more before, there was few Hoti or unclassified samples but i believe it was way larger before in regard of percentage. However you are right, i didnt check statistics but i spoken out of a mind and as it seems few things have changed.

Albanian L283 is definitively connected to ancient DNA found in Dalmatia therefore i dont see how someone like Serbs you mention is trying to disapprove its Illyrian origin.

Anyways what i wanted to point is that percentage of some haplogroup does not tell how old it is. Even if its half of Albanian L283 it still expaned in only last 1200 years, so its valid example.




Actually J2-M205 has higher diversity among Albanians then J2-L283. Look in link you gave Y22066 samples are CTS1969+, while South Albanian samples are CTS1969-. CTS1969 is 8300 years old, therefore Albanian TMRCA of J2-M205 is 8300 years. While Albanian TMRCA of J2-L283 is 4900 years. Meaning Albanians belonging to J2-M205 have higher diversity then Albanians belonging to J2-L283.

Also there is fourth cluster which is identified in Tirana in public studies but we still dont have it in project.

But this is absolutely irrelevant since i think J2-L283 is older in Dalmatian coast, while J2-M205 expanded with Phoenicians or later.


I think you’re misconstruing how diverse it is and what that means in the way of Albanian ethnogenesis. Idk much about your lines origin. I’m not talking about ages of branches. We’re speaking of the false statement you made that there is little to no diversity and almost 100 percent PH1751.

J2b-L283 is not only more prevalent but more diverse than your line in Albanians. Age has nothing to do with diversity. I believe diversity has more to do with the abundance of different clades of the same branch. Regardless of their ages. So yea some diversity in a small group of your line. This is not however more diverse and more pivotal to Albanians than J2b-L283 is overall. I have no idea where you pulled that idea from.

If anything J1 in Albanians seems to be very diverse and forming a respectable 3% besides other minimal lineages, and can already see a breakdown of roughly 9-10 clusters, which shows an immense diversity for a small sample size.

none of them date to the ottoman period either and likely all arrived between the Bronze and very early Middle Ages if I’m not mistaken. Il defer to Kelmendasi on that as I am sure he’s done more research on the lineage.
 
none of them date to the ottoman period either and likely all arrived between the Bronze and very early Middle Ages if I’m not mistaken. Il defer to Kelmendasi on that as I am sure he’s done more research on the lineage.
Based on current data, the J1 clades found in Albanians seem to have primarily arrived between the Late Bronze Age and Byzantine Period. So you are correct. Majority fall under P58 which is a major clade under J1. The clades under P58 include Z1884 (Z1884>L829 and Z1884>FGC11) and Y3081 (ZS241). Both of these clusters are best associated with the Central Semitic branch of Semitic, this branch is comprised of the NW branch (Canaanite and Aramaic), Arabic and some extinct languages such as Amorite. Y3081 itself is best linked to Canaanite, especially Jews or Hebrew speakers. Z1884 has branches which can be linked to the Arabs (FGC11+) as well as branches that can be linked to the Phoenicians (L829+). Should be noted that FGC11 was found in a Bronze Age sample from Sidon, Lebanon, so it is Pre-Arabic. The Albanian L829 seems pretty unique and possibly arrived during the Late Bronze Age, my Y3081 is also pretty unique but I think it's most likely that it arrived after the Iron Age (Probably Roman or Hellenistic period).

There is a clade that likely arrived during the Neolithic or earlier, this clade is J-Y19093 which is a CHG branch and comes from Y6305 which was found in Paleolithic Georgia. In Albanians so far it seems to be most common in Albanians from Malesi (Montenegro side). There are also clades under L620 and Z1828 which may have arrived during the Bronze Age or a little later.
 
I think you’re misconstruing how diverse it is and what that means in the way of Albanian ethnogenesis. Idk much about your lines origin. I’m not talking about ages of branches. We’re speaking of the false statement you made that there is little to no diversity and almost 100 percent PH1751.

This is not true. You are now putting words into my mouth lol. I never mentioned L283 diversity but what i said is that more then 95 % of L283 is PH1751.
Well, what i should have said is majority of Albanian L283 is PH1751. But if you read posts prior to that my argument is still valid even tho its not 95 % but 50 % and still majority. I know about Albanian L283 TMRCA, its 4400 years.



J2b-L283 is not only more prevalent but more diverse than your line in Albanians. Age has nothing to do with diversity. I already mentioned there’s only 3 differences for 6 kits. So yea some diversity in a small group of your line. This is not however more diverse and more pivotal to Albanians than J2b-L283 is overall. I have no idea where you pulled that idea from.

You are forcing that L283 is more diverse among Albanian while M205 has higher TMRCA, lol.
If we have two group of organisms, and one group has TMRCA 8300 years, while another group has TMRCA 4400 years, which group is more diverse?

Logic, no?

If anything J1 in Albanians seems to be very diverse and forming a respectable 3% besides other minimal lineages, and can already see a breakdown of roughly 9-10 clusters, which shows an immense diversity for a small sample size.

none of them date to the ottoman period either and likely all arrived between the Bronze and very early Middle Ages if I’m not mistaken. Il defer to Kelmendasi on that as I am sure he’s done more research on the lineage.


J1 diversified since Paleolithic 18200 years ago, while J2-M205 8300 years ago.

Also J1 is not on same level as J2-M205. J1 is on J2 level, while J2-M205 is in fact J2>M102>M205.

Therefore we cant compare them at the same level, and J1 should definitively be compared and looked upon branch by branch.
Anyways i dont see why you started to speak about J1 now out of the sky : ) This is J2 Eupedia forum section, J1 is debated in J1 section.
 
This is not true. You are now putting words into my mouth lol. I never mentioned L283 diversity but what i said is that more then 95 % of L283 is PH1751.
Well, what i should have said is majority of Albanian L283 is PH1751. But if you read posts prior to that my argument is still valid even tho its not 95 % but 50 % and still majority. I know about Albanian L283 TMRCA, its 4400 years.





You are forcing that L283 is more diverse among Albanian while M205 has higher TMRCA, lol.
If we have two group of organisms, and one group has TMRCA 8300 years, while another group has TMRCA 4400 years, which group is more diverse?

Logic, no?




J1 diversified since Paleolithic 18200 years ago, while J2-M205 8300 years ago.

Also J1 is not on same level as J2-M205. J1 is on J2 level, while J2-M205 is in fact J2>M102>M205.

Therefore we cant compare them at the same level, and J1 should definitively be compared and looked upon branch by branch.
Anyways i dont see why you started to speak about J1 now out of the sky : ) This is J2 Eupedia forum section, J1 is debated in J1 section.
Sorry about the off topic J1 post btw.
 
This is not true. You are now putting words into my mouth lol. I never mentioned L283 diversity but what i said is that more then 95 % of L283 is PH1751.
Well, what i should have said is majority of Albanian L283 is PH1751. But if you read posts prior to that my argument is still valid even tho its not 95 % but 50 % and still majority. I know about Albanian L283 TMRCA, its 4400 years.





You are forcing that L283 is more diverse among Albanian while M205 has higher TMRCA, lol.
If we have two group of organisms, and one group has TMRCA 8300 years, while another group has TMRCA 4400 years, which group is more diverse?

Logic, no?




J1 diversified since Paleolithic 18200 years ago, while J2-M205 8300 years ago.

Also J1 is not on same level as J2-M205. J1 is on J2 level, while J2-M205 is in fact J2>M102>M205.

Therefore we cant compare them at the same level, and J1 should definitively be compared and looked upon branch by branch.
Anyways i dont see why you started to speak about J1 now out of the sky : ) This is J2 Eupedia forum section, J1 is debated in J1 section.

Look, there’s no need to turn this into a needless argument. I didn’t put words into your mouth. You literally said 95 percent of Albanian J2b-L283 is all PH1751 and that your lineage is more diverse than L283 in Albanians. There’s a big difference between 95 percent and 48 percent.

L283 has 5-6 main clusters(dominated by PH1751) with plenty of other small sub-clusters. It is very diverse in Albanians.

now you’re claiming the TMRCA of your lineage some how makes your lineage more diverse and somehow more pivotal to the progenitors of Albanians?

You can’t really be that uninformed can you? Albanians weren’t even around then, and the diversity of a lineage has less to do with age and more to do with actually DIVERSITY of branches/clades within a given population and their relative spread. the diversity of your line is the eastern Mediterranean. Within Albanians, currently until we have more samples and more clusters forming, your line compared to L283 plays a lesser role and lesser diversity in Albanians.

Your line may have entered very early. No question. This doesn’t make it the main lineage responsible for albanian ethnogenesis nor does its age have anything to do with our ethnogenesis.

I’m not forcing anything. I’m stating the plain facts. Doesn’t matter how old your line is or even if it was there before illyrians. It is not more diverse than J2b-L283 where it concerns Albanians and their ethnogenesis.

yes it’s a J2b sub-forum. Wasn’t trying to turn it into J1. I merely was illustrating it has far more diversity in Albanians than J2b-M205 or even J-L283 for instance but that doesn’t say much where it concerns the later albanian ethnogenesis and which lineages were more successful.

maybe you delivered your statements differently than you meant to convey. I responded to what you wrote though.
 
Sorry about the off topic J1 post btw.
Np, i am very interested about J1 also. As its clear J1 and J2-M205 lived side by side since at least 2000 BCE since they were together found in Sidon. Also its possible they expanded together.

Sadly i have not explored J1 too much.

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Based on current data, the J1 clades found in Albanians seem to have primarily arrived between the Late Bronze Age and Byzantine Period. So you are correct. Majority fall under P58 which is a major clade under J1. The clades under P58 include Z1884 (Z1884>L829 and Z1884>FGC11) and Y3081 (ZS241). Both of these clusters are best associated with the Central Semitic branch of Semitic, this branch is comprised of the NW branch (Canaanite and Aramaic), Arabic and some extinct languages such as Amorite. Y3081 itself is best linked to Canaanite, especially Jews or Hebrew speakers. Z1884 has branches which can be linked to the Arabs (FGC11+) as well as branches that can be linked to the Phoenicians (L829+). Should be noted that FGC11 was found in a Bronze Age sample from Sidon, Lebanon, so it is Pre-Arabic. The Albanian L829 seems pretty unique and possibly arrived during the Late Bronze Age, my Y3081 is also pretty unique but I think it's most likely that it arrived after the Iron Age (Probably Roman or Hellenistic period).

There is a clade that likely arrived during the Neolithic or earlier, this clade is J-Y19093 which is a CHG branch and comes from Y6305 which was found in Paleolithic Georgia. In Albanians so far it seems to be most common in Albanians from Malesi (Montenegro side). There are also clades under L620 and Z1828 which may have arrived during the Bronze Age or a little later.

Thank you. That says a lot. Seems to have been very active in our neck of the woods for a very long time.
 
Np, i am very interested about J1 also. As its clear J1 and J2-M205 lived side by side since at least 2000 BCE since they were together found in Sidon. Also its possible they expanded together.

Sadly i have not explored J1 too much.


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I think both had something to do with the expansion and ethnos of Semitic speakers. J2-M205 can be compared to J1-P58 as both have TMRCA ~8,400 years ago. J-Z2324 was also found alongside J-M205 in Early Bronze Age Jordan (Ain Ghazal), both were also found in Pre-Ptolemaic Egypt.
 
You are turning this into a needless argument. There is no need to compare J2-M205 and J2-L283 in such a matter.
It was other guy if you read better who started to compare it and he got all the things wrong. In this post : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...Eupedia/page14?p=588022&viewfull=1#post588022

Now you are just continuing to do the same. J2-L283 might have played this or that role, but for sure its not more diverse then J2-M205. Not that it means something, but simply it is how it is.


Look, there’s no need to turn this into a needless argument. I didn’t put words into your mouth. You literally said 95 percent of Albanian J2b-L283 is all PH1751 and that your lineage is more diverse than L283 in Albanians. There’s a big difference between 95 percent and 48 percent.

As i already said it was mistake since i spoken out of the head, i looked at J2-L283 situation long ago while there was maybe 100 or 150 Albanian samples, i am sure that PH1751 had way higher percentage in the past.
Now recently many people tested and there is over 800 samples and situation changed.

I admitted mistake and what now, you dont have to repeat it as a parrot. Other guy pulled out L283 saying that it has higher percentage therefore M205 is "foreign" and "recent".
It was a try to teach him that percentage is not important as you can see that half of that L283 expanded in last 1200 years.
Also that J2-M205 does not reach high percentage anywhere in the world, common is 0-1 %, therefore if we go by that logic M205 is foreign and recent in entire world.

Also he pulled out just as you that J2-L283 is more diverse in Albania then J2-M205, which is false again. J2-M205 has higher TMRCA therefore higher diversity in Albania.

What he (and you) didnt understand is that neither diversity and neither percentage have priority when trying to find origin, but rather ancient DNA.
Ancient DNA has priority and we can conclude that J2-L283 was present since at least 1600 BCE in Dalmatia as ancient DNA shows us. While J2-M205 was not yet found, but it was found in Middle East.

L283 has 5-6 main clusters(dominated by PH1751) with plenty of other small sub-clusters. It is very diverse in Albanians.

Yes i know, i tested few of Albanians who turned out various branches of J2-L283. Also i analyzed their results just as i did yours and discussed them with you if you remember.
My uncle line (which i also tested), is PH1751.

Albanian TMRCA of L283 is 4400 years in multiple subclades discovered so far.

I know way more and before you about Albanian J2-L283 even tho you corrected me about one mistake lol.

now you’re claiming the TMRCA of your lineage some how makes your lineage more diverse and somehow more pivotal to the progenitors of Albanians?

I never said this, lol, you are putting words into my mouth again. Why are you angry and why are writing these stuff Dibran?
I understand that you realised and corrected me about PH1751 percentage, which i admitted and thanked you. But the rest of argument is like you trying to invent things i never said or claimed and then argue with me about them.


your line compared to L283 plays a lesser role and lesser diversity in Albanians.

J2-M205 has high diversity and important impact on entire Mediterranean Sea since at least 2000 BCE which is confirmed thru ancient DNA and diversity. And probably since 6000 BCE by TMRCA.
Albanians are Mediterranean population, therefore i dont see what is not clear there?

Your line may have entered very early. No question. This doesn’t make it the main lineage responsible for albanian ethnogenesis nor does its age have anything to do with our ethnogenesis.

I’m not forcing anything. I’m stating the plain facts. Doesn’t matter how old your line is or even if it was there before illyrians. It is not more diverse than J2b-L283 where it concerns Albanians and their ethnogenesis.

Who even mentioned albanian ethnogenesis or anything. Are you drunk?

J2-M205 is more diverse then J2-L283 among Albanians. Because Albanians within J2-M205 have TMRCA 8300 years, while Albanians within J2-L283 have TMRCA 4400 years.

But nevertheless, Albanian language was brought by probably Indo-Europeans where J2-L283 was part of them, while J2-M205 spread with Semitic speaking populations like Phoenicians for example as ancient DNA testifies therefore its clear that regarding language J2-L283 played important role. But, still, J2-M205 is more diverse among Albanians. I hope you do understand this. And no one except you ever tried to compare who played more role in which period. That is childish way of thinking.
 
You are turning this into a needless argument. There is no need to compare J2-M205 and J2-L283 in such a matter.
It was other guy if you read better who started to compare it and he got all the things wrong. In this post : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...Eupedia/page14?p=588022&viewfull=1#post588022

Now you are just continuing to do the same. J2-L283 might have played this or that role, but for sure its not more diverse then J2-M205. Not that it means something, but simply it is how it is.




As i already said it was mistake since i spoken out of the head, i looked at J2-L283 situation long ago while there was maybe 100 or 150 Albanian samples, i am sure that PH1751 had way higher percentage in the past.
Now recently many people tested and there is over 800 samples and situation changed.

I admitted mistake and what now, you dont have to repeat it as a parrot. Other guy pulled out L283 saying that it has higher percentage therefore M205 is "foreign" and "recent".
It was a try to teach him that percentage is not important as you can see that half of that L283 expanded in last 1200 years.
Also that J2-M205 does not reach high percentage anywhere in the world, common is 0-1 %, therefore if we go by that logic M205 is foreign and recent in entire world.

Also he pulled out just as you that J2-L283 is more diverse in Albania then J2-M205, which is false again. J2-M205 has higher TMRCA therefore higher diversity in Albania.

What he (and you) didnt understand is that neither diversity and neither percentage have priority when trying to find origin, but rather ancient DNA.
Ancient DNA has priority and we can conclude that J2-L283 was present since at least 1600 BCE in Dalmatia as ancient DNA shows us. While J2-M205 was not yet found, but it was found in Middle East.



Yes i know, i tested few of Albanians who turned out various branches of J2-L283. Also i analyzed their results just as i did yours and discussed them with you if you remember.
My uncle line (which i also tested), is PH1751.

Albanian TMRCA of L283 is 4400 years in multiple subclades discovered so far.

I know way more and before you about Albanian J2-L283 even tho you corrected me about one mistake lol.



I never said this, lol, you are putting words into my mouth again. Why are you angry and why are writing these stuff Dibran?
I understand that you realised and corrected me about PH1751 percentage, which i admitted and thanked you. But the rest of argument is like you trying to invent things i never said or claimed and then argue with me about them.




J2-M205 has high diversity and important impact on entire Mediterranean Sea since at least 2000 BCE which is confirmed thru ancient DNA and diversity. And probably since 6000 BCE by TMRCA.
Albanians are Mediterranean population, therefore i dont see what is not clear there?



Who even mentioned albanian ethnogenesis or anything. Are you drunk?

J2-M205 is more diverse then J2-L283 among Albanians. Because Albanians within J2-M205 have TMRCA 8300 years, while Albanians within J2-L283 have TMRCA 4400 years.

But nevertheless, Albanian language was brought by probably Indo-Europeans where J2-L283 was part of them, while J2-M205 spread with Semitic speaking populations like Phoenicians for example as ancient DNA testifies therefore its clear that regarding language J2-L283 played important role. But, still, J2-M205 is more diverse among Albanians. I hope you do understand this. And no one except you ever tried to compare who played more role in which period. That is childish way of thinking.

You're jumping into different subjects detracting from my simple straight forward point that you claimed all L283 is 95 percent PH1751(where you claimed I put words in your mouth for correcting you) and that there are more diverse clades and branches of M205 in Albanians than L283. That is utter hogwash. Its age is older sure, but that doesn't qualify as diversity. Many distantly related brother clades of varying ages and branches is what constitutes diversity over all. L283 is more diverse in Albanians. M205 being older in Albanians does not mean it is more diverse. That isn't what the current data we have shows.

The age has nothing to do with it. Using your logic, if TMRCA is the sole determination for diversity, the haplogroups that have highest TMRCA's among Albanians are J1 and J2a.

You probably meant to say your line is more diverse in the Mediterranean than J-L283. That would be true. This is not however the same as the statement that M205 is more diverse within the Albanians than L283 is. Is this beginning to sink in?

I brought up Albanian ethnogenesis because YOU are claiming your lineage is more diverse in Albanians than L283. 8300 years ago there were no Albanians, so why even refer to the broad TMRCA of your branch being older in Albanians? What does it have to do with Albanians when the ancient ancestors of Albanian M205 likely spoke Phoenician?

M205 does not have more subclades, sub-clusters in Albanians than L283 at the moment. Show the proof. I only see 6 Albanians with 3 clusters, none of which are fleshed out yet beside your clade(since you did bigy). Unless you have some other database with numerous Albanians and clades of M205 that all differ?

Show the proof instead of creating strawman arguments and claiming I put words in your mouth when I literally called you out on your false statements on L283 not being diverse.

Point remains, L283 has a diversity of clades, and sub-clades in Albanians, regardless of the macro branch M205 being older. Where is this in M205? This is all I see in the project. 4 clusters against 6 if not more within L283.


J2b-M205 General TMRCA 8300(not bigY tested)

J2b-M205 Cluster A(not bigy tested)

J2b-Y22063(formed 1000ybp, TMRCA 800ybp)

Also, after the latest YTree update, there may actually be a glitch in J-M205 TMRCA since it went from 5700 to 8300 ybp. If you click "info" next to J-CTS1969 TMRCA, one of its main branches, you will see a couple of samples on the bottom have unusually high TMRCA, hence I think this glitch 'artificially' rises the whole M205 TMRCA: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Same way in my case the Sardinian L1029 is glitching by supposedly sharing over 140 SNPs with other L1029 which is simply not true.

Also, in regards to your own cluster, J-Y22059, it's closest matches are in the Levant at ~4900 ybp. Since it's TMRCA is quite low, I think odds are it only arrived here sometime between 3000 to 1000 years ago, perhaps during the Roman - Byzantine period. Also, I think the other J-M205 lineages in the South Albanians likely arrived through different migrations, perhaps Phoenicians/Romans and such, and are definitely not older than the Bronze Age.

So even if for arguments sake your line is "older" in Albanians than L283, it is certainly not more diverse.

Btw, don't you dare try and insult me and call me drunk, and childish. You're making baseless assumptions and over analyzing my statements and twisting them to appear a victim. The evidence is stacked against you. L283 is more diverse in Albanians than M205. The end and goodbye.
 
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You're jumping into different subjects detracting from my simple straight forward point that you claimed all L283 is 95 percent PH1751(where you claimed I put words in your mouth for correcting you) and that there are more diverse clades and branches of M205 in Albanians than L283. That is utter hogwash. Its age is older sure, but that doesn't qualify as diversity.

Dibran you are repeating that like a parrot again.. You said this like 4 times now that i said that over 95 % of Albanian L283 is PH1751, and i explained you like 4 times why i said it.
Nevertheless, majority of Albanian L283 is PH1751. With TMRCA 1200 years. While all Albanian L283 subclades together form TMRCA of 4400 ybp.

Many distantly related brother clades of varying ages and branches is what constitutes diversity over all. L283 is more diverse in Albanians. M205 being older in Albanians does not mean it is more diverse. That isn't what the current data we have shows.

You cant look at clade that achieves up to 25 % in some population, and compare it with clade that achieves 0,5 % and say look the one with 25 % has more subclades identified among modern people so it means its more diverse.

J2-L283 is very diverse within Albanians, in multiple subclades, achieving TMRCA 4400 years. However, J2-M205 also has very high diversity, in multiple subclades, achieving TMRCA 8300 ybp.

So, even tho J2-L283 is very diverse. J2-M205 is very diverse within Mediterranean Sea, but also among Albanians so far in 4 subclades (TMRCA minimum 8300 ybp).

The age has nothing to do with it. I already told you your line was probably in the Balkans before Indo-Europeans arrived. Show me where I said your line was a recent arrival. You can't because I never once said that. Now YOU are putting words in my mouth. All I said is its not more diverse than L283 in Albanians.

Its more diverse lol. All Albanians under J2b-L283 have TMRCA 4400 ybp. While all Albanians under J2-M205 have TMRCA 8300 ybp.

You probably meant to say your line is more diverse in the Mediterranean than J-L283. That would be true. This is not however the same as the statement that M205 is more diverse within the Albanians than L283 is. Is this beginning to sink in?

J2-M205 shows extreme diversity and low percentage among Albanians, so far i know for 12 samples from North to South in 4 different subclades (TMRCA 8300 years).
In compare to neighbouring countries with 0 % of J2-M205 like Slovenia, 1 % of J2-M205 in four different sublcades is extreme.



Where is this in M205? This is all I see in the project.

J2b-M205 General TMRCA 8300(not bigY tested)

J2b-M205 Cluster A(not bigy tested)

J2b-Y22063(formed 1000ybp, TMRCA 800ybp)



Both "General" and "Cluster A" clades are tested M205+ PF7321+ and CTS1969- SNPs in YSEQ.
While Y22063 as seen is CTS1969+. Since CTS1969 is 8300 years old (at the moment according to Yfull), you can already see that TMRCA of these three Albanian subclades is 8300 years.

Cluster A did WGS in Dantelabs and it will soon appear in Yfull, while "General" cluster has different STR values and might be brother clade to CTS1969 and "Cluster A". It would be nice if this sample would also do bigY.

And there is fourth branch identified in public study among Tirana Albanians but we didn't manage to get any of these in project yet. It might be Dema family from Zall Baster near Tirana that tested J2-M205 in 23andme or perhaps some other family.
 
Also, after the latest YTree update, there may actually be a glitch in J-M205 TMRCA since it went from 5700 to 8300 ybp. If you click "info" next to J-CTS1969 TMRCA, one of its main branches, you will see a couple of samples on the bottom have unusually high TMRCA, hence I think this glitch 'artificially' rises the whole M205 TMRCA: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Yes i know, its Palestine Jenin and Saudi Makkah samples, while some samples are not calculated at all or are under analysis.
I already mentioned this few pages back. There is chance that this is a glitch due to new version but we will see soon.


Same way in my case the Sardinian L1029 is glitching by supposedly sharing over 140 SNPs with other L1029 which is simply not true.


Where do you see this Sardinian that shares over 140 SNPs with other L1029? I see Cagliari Sardinian but looks like his TMRCA is not yet calculated.

Do you mean sample with ID ERS256947 ? I see he is not yet calculated into TMRCA, where you got that he shares 140 SNPs with other L1029?
 
Where is source of that branch and where is the proof (which mutation)?

In Croatia exist that branch (Balkan cluster) and based on that I make conclusion.

We don’t know it yet because we don’t know migration of Y22059 peoples in that area(Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania etc)

For now we have no evidence for that, if you have evidence show genetic data.

In Croatia, its mostly Serbs, from "Krajina" to Dalmatia. However there are also original Croats.
I seen recently on Serbian DNA forum that they are claiming for Croat samples that they are actually Serbs in origin.
Which is funny to me, they were neither Serbs neither Croats. They are all of Pred-Slavic Montenegrin origin, and we all know what that is.

Source of mutation Y22066/Y22059 is Y22075, as i already told you: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22075/

If Albanians have 4 branches then these mutations must also exist in the Croatian Serbs, where they are?
It is logical that this branch exist and migrate in that area( Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia or Croatia) if this branch only exist in that area.
However, once when we find out migration path of that branch then we will know more precisely.

No, its not like that. There are bottlenecks happening all the time, so if we identify one branch within one territory or nation, it does not mean it has to be in nearby population also.
We have plenty of examples like this. You need to explore many various branches to realise this.

In Bulgaria exist many branches of J2 haplotype so maybe source of this branch is there.

J2 is not that significant in Bulgaria. Also J2-M205 dont have any varieties in Bulgaria. Its only few samples and they all belong to J2-M205>Y22059 (Balkan cluster).
All of them but one sample have DYS385 15-19, so no percentage neither diversity even in this one sublcade.
In region of Southwest Serbia and Montenegro also in Croatian Krajina/Dalmatia there is way higher percentage and variations then in Bulgaria/Romania.

Source of Bulgarian M205 samples is Montenegro within the last 1000 years as TMRCA testifies.



No one has Albanian origin they have Vlachs origin, Albanians are not mentioned in Croatia at least not in large numbers. Whether these Vlachs were originally Albanian origin probable they are but not all, there are also migrations from Bulgaria, possibly other countries. Genetics will say that in the future.


Well they are slavicized and live in Croatia and Bosnia for 600 years now. Its natural they have high percentage of also classic Slavic haplogroups. However what differentiate them from Croats, Bosnjaks or Slovens is extremely high percentage of E-v13 and J2-M205. Their E-v13 in some subclades matches Albanians like subclade i linked earlier, while all of their J2-M205 is Y22066 which is of Pred-Slavic Montenegrin origin so also possibly Albanian origin.
Im saying that its Albanian because 12 century tribe that belong to it was none-Slavic tribe native to Montenegro. If we identified tribe in Greece i would claim Greek origin or if we identified in Italy i would clame Roman but since tribe is identified in Pred-Slavic Montenegro population which was considered native i dont see what it could be except Albanian lol.



Therefore you have no proof that branch Y22059 has its source in Albania.
The fact that this branch exists in Albania does not mean that it could not have come from Bulgaria to Albania. Vlachs probably came from area of Bulgaria as well, otherwise in southern Serbia Bulgarians are also mentioned, they probably brought and some genetics.

I have proof that Y22059 was present among 12 century none-Slavic Montenegrin tribe that everyone recorded as natives.
Furthermore Y22059 has TMRCA 1000 years. It means that its main expansion happened within 1000 years somewhere in Montenegro and surrounding areas since only 100 years after its MRCA lived we have records of tribe that belonged to this haplogroup.

Regarding Vlachs i already told you about Bosch et al 2006 (major Aromun study), no Vlach or Aromun bears J2-M205 except one Vlach in Albania whos closest relatives are Albanian in Albania, Italian in Sicily and Greek in Greece. No Vlach relatives or connection whatsoever.


Probably yes but for now branch Y22059 points more to the Bulgarian direction of migration.


What points to Bulgaria lol ? based on what? On 6 samples out of 800 in Bulgarian project, while this 6 samples all belong to one Montenegrin branch and they have no variations but very similar STRs.
They are all recent emigrants from Montenegro. Other then that J2-M205 is none-existent in Bulgaria neither has any connection to Turkic languages al Bulgar neither Slavic as modern Bulgarian.


They did not come to defend against Ottoman Empire, they come with Turks.

They actually arrived to defend against Ottomans, read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Serbian_Krajina#Background


Written records mention Vlachs, and originally they may be Albanians, Bulgarians etc, we will know this more accurately in the future, but for sure they are mostly original Albanians.

I dont know yet for matches among Vlachs even tho its possible it needs to be verified, but matches among Albanians can be found.


First prove by written documents that someone migrates from Montenegro to Bulgaria, when you do it then I will answer.

I dont need document, highest diversity of Y22059 is in area of Montenegro and wider, TMRCA of this sublcade is 1000 years.
Also its identified within 12 century Montenegrin tribe. Facts speak for itself. Bulgarian samples are South Serbia, Montenegrin or Kosovo emigrants.


I'm interested in younger mutations this is old connection (formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp)

We are talking about migration in the Turkish era.

There is no younger mutation neither connection. Closest link is multiethnic from Middle East to Mediterranean Europe with difference 4900 years.

If Y22059 was recent migration we would find closer links or it would be downstream of Middle Eastern subclades but fact is that Y22059 is strait equal brother clade to subclades spread in Middle East and Mediterranean Sea in timeframe of 4900 ybp.



For now there is an older mutation in Serbia and Bosnia (TMRCA), so for now it would be reverse direction of migration. That's why i say we still have to wait.

It all belongs to 12 century Montenegrin tribe with TMRCA 1000 years. MRCA of Y22059 was none-Slavic Montenegrin.
 
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Only 6 out of 839 albanians (less than 1%) so far have j2b m205 and most of it is found in the south

"According to Serbian DNA project, haplogroup J2b1 - M205 is represented with 5,86% (July, 2014.), or 31/529 tested persons"

It is definitely NOT albanian in origin, no idea what this guy is talking about. It is likely from ottoman conquest
 
You are very new to this, i am fully tested 111 STRs, Big-Y, Yfull upload, autosomal. While you are not yet tested at all and you are exploring this for 3 days and now you think you can go around Eupedia and teach people about their results.. I seen your level of typing you are not even serious but still i will reply to you. You must be some bored kid?


Only 6 out of 839 albanians (less than 1%) so far have j2b m205 and most of it is found in the south

That is only 6 that are in project. But i have record of about 14 of them all together including public studies, 23andme, etc..
When i tested i was for quite some time the only J2-M205 Albanian, but after checking public studies i found more of them and also later we got them in project.

I was practically attacked by Serbs that J2-M205 does not exist in Albanians neither in public studies. While in fact i found J2-M205 among Albanians in public studies and we got them in project now.

1 percent in multiple subclades among Albanians is decent percentage for this haplogroup. It peaks in Cyprus with 6 % and then Balkans, but also possibly Oman and Yemen. According to main J2 admin, its main expansion happened in Middle East, more specific Fertile Crescent in time of 4000 - 3000 BCE going by Yfull age estimation.



"According to Serbian DNA project, haplogroup J2b1 - M205 is represented with 5,86% (July, 2014.), or 31/529 tested persons"

It all belongs to one branch J2-M205>Y22059. Which is connected with Pre-Slavic 12 century Montenegrin tribe Kriçi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči
Also its found in North Albania in Lohja tribe, and in Kosovo (myself). Serb samples are first slavicized and later serbicized. Also majority of Serb samples are from Croatia and Bosnia, from place where they are known to arrive there in 16 century from South Serbia and Montenegro. Thru history they never declared themselves Serbs but Vlachs, its obvious that they were some kind of slavicized locals. Probably Albanians or very similar to Albanians (100 % Southeast autosomally)

They dont only have high J2-M205, but also high (in compare to neighbours) E-v13 which in some subclades matches Albanians. But also in some degree J2-L283, R1b, J1, and so on..

In Montenegro there is 30 % of E-v13, way higher then in other South Slavic countries and up to 10x higher then in Slovenia. Therefore as we already knew this, we are dealing with Albanians here. J2-M205 among Serbs is result of slavicization of Montenegrin population, where vast majority of Albanian haplogroups were also slavicized and not only specific branch J2-M205>Y22059 that we are talking about here.

It is definitely NOT albanian in origin, no idea what this guy is talking about. It is likely from ottoman conquest


You are like robot with freshly installed program, you dont even understand what i was saying.

I was speaking about Kriçi tribe, not about haplogroup. I said that Kriçi tribe since it was Pre-Slavic Montenegrin tribe it could be Albanian language they spoken. J2-M205 Is Middle Eastern and Mediterranean, while J2-M205>Y22059 subbranch is native Montenegrin with possibly Phoenician origin or later Roman period migration. But everything so far points more towards early Phoenician period.


J2-M205 is way older then Ottoman period, even Y22059 branch is connected to two tribes that have records prior to Ottomans so your theory immediately goes down.
One tribe is early Pre-Slavic Montenegrin tribe, and another is Albanian Northern tribe.



Also autosomally, in FTDNA calculator, even tho Serbs usually have way higher East component (Ukraine - Russia), in 4 Serb Y22059 samples as i can see on BigY Block Tree, Southeast (Albania Greece Italy) component prevails.

So not that only their paternal line J-Y22059 is most likely Albanian in origin, also their autosomal genetics is in most part made of Albanian autosomal components.

Furthermore i recently seen on Poreklo, they posted autosomal test of J2-M205>Y22059 Bulgar. Guy scores incredible 100 % Southeast Europe. Which even tho i seen many tests from many Balkan populations, 100 % Southeast can be usually seen only among Albanians.

So J2-M205>Y22059 branch is probably Phoenician expansion thru Greeks and Illyrians into Albanians and later thru slavicization into Montenegrins and then Serbs.
 
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You are very new to this, i am fully tested 111 STRs, Big-Y, Yfull upload, autosomal. While you are not yet tested at all and you are exploring this for 3 days and now you think you can go around Eupedia and teach people about their results.. I seen your level of typing you are not even serious but still i will reply to you. You must be some bored kid?
That is only 6 that are in project. But i have record of about 14 of them all together including public studies, 23andme, etc..
When i tested i was for quite some time the only J2-M205 Albanian, but after checking public studies i found more of them and also later we got them in project.
I was practically attacked by Serbs that J2-M205 does not exist in Albanians neither in public studies. While in fact i found J2-M205 among Albanians in public studies and we got them in project now.
1 percent in multiple subclades among Albanians is decent percentage for this haplogroup. It peaks in Cyprus with 6 % and then Balkans, but also possibly Oman and Yemen. According to main J2 admin, its main expansion happened in Middle East, more specific Fertile Crescent in time of 4000 - 3000 BCE going by Yfull age estimation.
It all belongs to one branch J2-M205>Y22059. Which is connected with Pre-Slavic 12 century Montenegrin tribe Kriçi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči
Also its found in North Albania in Lohja tribe, and in Kosovo (myself). Serb samples are first slavicized and later serbicized. Also majority of Serb samples are from Croatia and Bosnia, from place where they are known to arrive there in 16 century from South Serbia and Montenegro. Thru history they never declared themselves Serbs but Vlachs, its obvious that they were some kind of slavicized locals. Probably Albanians or very similar to Albanians (100 % Southeast autosomally)
They dont only have high J2-M205, but also high (in compare to neighbours) E-v13 which in some subclades matches Albanians. But also in some degree J2-L283, R1b, J1, and so on..
In Montenegro there is 30 % of E-v13, way higher then in other South Slavic countries and up to 10x higher then in Slovenia. Therefore as we already knew this, we are dealing with Albanians here. J2-M205 among Serbs is result of slavicization of Montenegrin population, where vast majority of Albanian haplogroups were also slavicized and not only specific branch J2-M205>Y22059 that we are talking about here.
You are like robot with freshly installed program, you dont even understand what i was saying.
I was speaking about Kriçi tribe, not about haplogroup. I said that Kriçi tribe since it was Pre-Slavic Montenegrin tribe it could be Albanian language they spoken. J2-M205 Is Middle Eastern and Mediterranean, while J2-M205>Y22059 subbranch is native Montenegrin with possibly Phoenician origin or later Roman period migration. But everything so far points more towards early Phoenician period.
J2-M205 is way older then Ottoman period, even Y22059 branch is connected to two tribes that have records prior to Ottomans so your theory immediately goes down.
One tribe is early Pre-Slavic Montenegrin tribe, and another is Albanian Northern tribe.
Also autosomally, in FTDNA calculator, even tho Serbs usually have way higher East component (Ukraine - Russia), in 4 Serb Y22059 samples as i can see on BigY Block Tree, Southeast (Albania Greece Italy) component prevails.
So not that only their paternal line J-Y22059 is most likely Albanian in origin, also their autosomal genetics is in most part made of Albanian autosomal components.
Furthermore i recently seen on Poreklo, they posted autosomal test of J2-M205>Y22059 Bulgar. Guy scores incredible 100 % Southeast Europe. Which even tho i seen many tests from many Balkan populations, 100 % Southeast can be usually seen only among Albanians.
So J2-M205>Y22059 branch is probably Phoenician expansion thru Greeks and Illyrians into Albanians and later thru slavicization into Montenegrins and then Serbs.

Me not being tested has nothing to do with this. You keep dancing around the facts, it is found almost 6% in Serbs and less than 1% in albanians, it is NOT albanian in origin and has nothing to do with albanians. It is almost non existant in North albanians too and yet these are the ones who have the most j2b l283. So it is not ilyrian at all like you claim, it doesn't have a big enough base to be, it looks recent especially amongst the less than 1% albanians

Haplogroup is more important than autosomal, far more accurate far more specific, we are talking about your fathers tribe here. All of these krici and whatever you mention is all well and good but you can't know what happened to these people during ottoman era, we don't have enough written history, what we have is accurate dna tests. Even if you insist it isn't from ottoman even though most evidence says otherwise it still doesn't make it albanian. The percentage is just too low
 

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